EGW and inspiration

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If you seriously believe that their writings are "inspired" in the NT sense of inspiration' date=' then make your case through reasoning and evidence.

Is there anything in either the Bible or SDA literature, including SOP, that supports your view? [/quote']

WHY ? Why should I have to make a case?

Give the reasons and evidences for your belief-- if you really do believe that the writings of Jon P. or George K. may be considered "inspired."

What does the NT mean by "inspired"? What evidence is there that the writings of the men you refer to are inspired? Why should anyone believe they are "inspired"?

[Woody]

Why should I ?

[John317]

Soon every possible effort will be made to discount and pervert the truth of the testimonies of God's Spirit. We must have in readiness the clear, straight messages that since 1846 have been coming to God's people.

Those who have treated the light that the Lord has given as a common thing will not be benefited by the instruction presented.

There are those who will misinterpret the messages that God has given, in accordance with their spiritual blindness.

Some will yield their faith, and will deny the truth of the messages, pointing to them as falsehoods.

Some will hold them up to ridicule, working against the light that God has been giving for years, and some who are weak in the faith will thus be led astray.

But others will be greatly helped by the messages. Though not personally addressed, they will be corrected, and will be led to shun the evils specified.... The Spirit of the Lord will be in the instruction, and doubts existing in many minds will be swept away. The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as scripture is explained by scripture. Many will read with eagerness the messages reproving wrong, that they may learn what they may do to be saved. . . . Light will dawn upon the understanding, and the Spirit will make an impression on minds, as Bible truth is clearly and simply presented in the messages that since 1846 God has been sending His people. These messages are to find their place in hearts, and transformations will take place.-- Letter 73, 1903. Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 41-42

Perils of Dissecting Inspired Messages

Some sit in judgment on the Scriptures, declaring that this or that passage is not inspired, because it does not strike their minds favorably. They cannot harmonize it with their ideas of philosophy and science, "falsely so called" (1 Timothy 6:20). Others for different reasons question portions of the Word of God. Thus many walk blindly where the enemy prepares the way. Now, it is not the province of any man to pronounce sentence upon the Scriptures, to judge or condemn any portion of God's Word. When one presumes to do this, Satan will create an atmosphere for him to breathe which will dwarf spiritual growth. When a man feels so very wise that he dares to dissect God's Word, his wisdom is, with God, counted foolishness. When he knows more, he will feel that he has everything to learn. And his very first lesson is to become teachable. "Learn of me," says the Great Teacher; "for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matthew 11:29). Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 41, 42

You who have been educating yourselves and others in a spirit of criticism and accusing, remember that you are imitating the example of Satan. When it suits your purpose, you treat the Testimonies as if you believed them, quoting from them to strengthen any statement you wish to have prevail. But how is it when light is given to correct your errors? Do you then accept the light? When the Testimonies speak contrary to your ideas, you treat them very lightly. Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 42, 43 paragraph 4; Chapter Title: Attitudes Toward the Testimonies.

It does not become anyone to drop a word of doubt here and there that shall work like poison in other minds, shaking their confidence in the messages which God has given, which have aided in laying the foundation of this work, and have attended it to the present day, in reproofs, warnings, corrections, and encouragements. To all who have stood in the way of the Testimonies, I would say, God has given a message to His people, and His voice will be heard, whether you hear or forbear. Your opposition has not injured me; but you must give an account to the God of heaven, who has sent these warnings and instructions to keep His people in the right way. You will have to answer to Him for your blindness, for being a stumbling block in the way of sinners.

Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 43

[Neil D]

Are Ellen White's words above directed at those who have never studied her books and who know nothing about her?

[Woody]

This wins another 'Oh Brother' award.

[fccool]

So, what you are saying is that there's no room for doubt in those who read all of her writings? You are coming from an assumption that everyone who reads her writings long enough will eventually come to the following conclusions:

1) The all of them are true (no exception)

2) That all of these are in fact from God (no exceptions)

3) That people know it and choose to rebel because they don't like the uncomfortable ones

From personal experience, I can tell you this is no the case. There are many uncomfortable writings of hers that are spot on. Others I question because of my previous understanding of the Biblical doctrine of atonement.

I'm guessing that there are many people who say that they believe it all, but they don't simply because of the pressure put on them from top down. I can guarantee you that you will be shun of church leadership positions if you choose the way of resistance in your personal decision. It has little to do with truth, but more to do with SDA tradition. As you pointed out correctly, most of the SDA members will not be able to explain to you the doctrine of IJ. So, how can they believe and defend and argue against what they have no clue about?

So, could it be that people like Kellogg caved under pressure to conform, because he knew his leadership position would be diminished if he disagreed?

Consider one of Ernie Knoll's dreams:

Quote:

I respond, “I am really bothered by the comments that people make and how they doubt what You have shown me.” I tell Him how the things they say bothers me deep down because of the things He and the Herald have shown me. I tell Him that I understand to not look at the things of this world but to ponder the things He has waiting for us. He reminds me of the Go Forth dream. He talks about Anonymous and how He is very well pleased with this person. He says how He would like to see others just like this person. He explains that this person’s faith is so strong that this person can “tell a mustard seed to become a mountain.” And by this person’s faith it would happen.

the implication is because the Anonymous believes Ernie, his faith is strong... which would mean people who do not... their faith is less of a faith, at least this is the implication.

So, do you believe that Ernie's dreams are from God, and not simply dreams? After all, most of the things he says are spot on. Why not take him as a modern day prophet?

[Robert]

Soon every possible effort will be made to discount and pervert the truth of the testimonies of God's Spirit.

I think I'll go to the local ABC store and buy all the Ellen G. White books and then make a huge bond fire.

John, the more you tell me to bow the knee to EGW...the more you tell me that she is God's spokesperson and I must obey her word the more I want to purchase some gas and matches. I have no problem whatsoever burning everyone of her books.

The Bible, and the Bible only, is my measuring stick of truth. Anything outside this goes into the fire.

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

You make it sound as if some of us were trying to get others to abandon EGW.....Let me assure you after reviewing the last 4 pages, I don't see that happening..AND not in the least....now, qualifying and understanding what and to whom she was refering to, and understanding when she was inspired....yeah, THAT we are asking about....It is also when people, such as yourself, use these questionable and controversial statements to prove your point, that also we question, and when some one does it in the sense that they are spiritually superior [much like the publican and the tax collector parable] then we call that spiritual abuse....and there is alot of it in our church and here on this forum....

Now, regarding various sources of inspiration that Redwood was talking about....

What make you think that when George Knight talks about the Adventist Historical past, that he is not clarifying what happened during those controversial time periods and places those controversial EGW statememts in context, ..what make you think that those are not inspired? Is not inspired writings to be instructional? Are they not for our edification?

Excellent Xcellent.

I don't feel that threats, guilt, controversy and straw men will help people have confidence in Ellen White. No matter how 'superior' the author may think he/she thinks and acts.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Soon every possible effort will be made to discount and pervert the truth of the testimonies of God's Spirit.

I think I'll go to the local ABC store and buy all the Ellen G. White books and then make a huge bond fire.

John, the more you tell me to bow the knee to EGW...the more you tell me that she is God's spokesperson and I must obey her word the more I want to purchase some gas and matches. I have no problem whatsoever burning everyone of her books.

The Bible, and the Bible only, is my measuring stick of truth. Anything outside this goes into the fire.

Rob

Rob. I have no idea of John's motives. But I can tell you the results ... and they are to drive people away from Ellen White AND the SDA church.

[fccool]

[Stan]

Rob

What was the last book of hers you read??

[Neil D]

Soon every possible effort will be made to discount and pervert the truth of the testimonies of God's Spirit. We must have in readiness the clear, straight messages that since 1846 have been coming to God's people.

[Woody]

Quote:

I think it's obvious that Bible does not contain the whole truth, but only the essential ones that God deems to be a priority.

Huh?

No ... a double Huh?

The Bible does not contain the whole truth?

Where do you get YOUR truth from?

[Woody]

Quote:

What are YOU saying by this? I don't want to know what EGW is saying, but rather what YOU are saying that she is saying.....And plueeeeze, no arguement about "It's not about me. It's about what God said thru Sister White".... because I can find out what she said...the question is what YOU are saying that she is saying....

Exactly. I have no problem with Ellen White ... it is the interpretation that people like our friend here have that concerns me. So ... perhaps they can come from behind of EGW's skirt and level with us.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Soon every possible effort will be made to discount and pervert the truth of the testimonies of God's Spirit.

I think I'll go to the local ABC store and buy all the Ellen G. White books and then make a huge bond fire.

John, the more you tell me to bow the knee to EGW...the more you tell me that she is God's spokesperson and I must obey her word the more I want to purchase some gas and matches. I have no problem whatsoever burning everyone of her books.

The Bible, and the Bible only, is my measuring stick of truth. Anything outside this goes into the fire.

Rob

Isn't that what king Jehoiakim did to the prophet Jeremiah's message? Yep, his messages grated his nerves too.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I think it's obvious that Bible does not contain the whole truth, but only the essential ones that God deems to be a priority.

Huh?

No ... a double Huh?

The Bible does not contain the whole truth?

Where do you get YOUR truth from?

"For we know in part...." 1 Cor 13

[Woody]

Quote:

Here is where we get into dicey things....We know that you are trying to impress us with your knowledge of what EGW is saying...We also know that she is trying to get others to open thier eyes...but what gets dicey is when YOU use HER WORDS...IOWs, you are putting words/meaning into her mouth that start to cross the rules that YOU help craft, John...And this is where we get into that area that other experts call "spiritual abuse"...Its not healthy for either individual nor for the chruch as a collective.

I could point the following quote back to the person who posted it ... Could it be HE that is misinterpreting her?

Quote:

There are those who will misinterpret the messages that God has given, in accordance with their spiritual blindness.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

I think it's obvious that Bible does not contain the whole truth, but only the essential ones that God deems to be a priority.

Huh?

No ... a double Huh?

The Bible does not contain the whole truth?

Where do you get YOUR truth from?

"For we know in part...." 1 Cor 13

The promise of salvation is simple and all we need to know if Jesus ... who is the Truth. EGW's words are that it is as simple as ABC.

[John317]

So, could it be that people like Kellogg caved under pressure to conform, because he knew his leadership position would be diminished if he disagreed?

Not sure what you mean about Kellogg "caving in". He was opposed to Ellen White from about 1895 onwards for business reasons as well as because of his belief in pantheism. He believed that God was in everything. For much of that time, he hid the fact that he opposed her. He would tell people he believed in her, but then he would very subtly bring in doubts and soon persuade others to oppose her.

Ellen White was given dreams about Kellogg's false teachings, and she called his beliefs "the Alpha." It threatened the very existence of the church for a while.

There are several good books about it.

See: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6434097767490329654

[fccool]

I'll take a look, but the question about pressure to conform (in the leadership circles) is still on the table.

[John317]

So, what you are saying is that there's no room for doubt in those who read all of her writings?

I would say that any intelligent person is going to have a lot of questions, but if a person is honest with God, they will be sincere questions motivated to find the answers.

My question is, what about those who have studied her for years and years, and are still bringing up the same old issues and doubts about whether Ellen White is of God or not-- or who always have to debate the whole issue of SOP every time anyone wants to talk about what she wrote?

I'm not talking about those who are just beginning to learn about her. Of course people just learning are going to have questions. That is to be expected.

But after 15 or 20 years.... and after having read many of her books... to still be bringing up the same questions and doubts that one would expect to hear from people who have little experience or knowledge?

That's the same with those who have been studying the Bible practically all their life but are still debating-- seriously doubting-- whether the Bible is true or whether they can depend on it. Or whether Jesus is alive, etc.

All I'm saying is that at some point we need to get beyond the basics when it comes to Ellen White, and not have to "invent the wheel" every time we talk about her.

[guibox]

It is unfortunate that the church is in the state it is in today over the writings of Sister White but they have no one to blame but themselves.

The vehemence I see from Robert and Micheneau against EGW are proof of that.

It is sad because rather than admit that EGW made mistakes and that her role wasn't to cement doctrine or theology into a second bible never to be changed, the conservatives as represented well here by John 317. messenger and others, would rather hold her up to too high of a standard and not show proof of where she was infallible, and condemn everyone else as 'throwing away God's messages' when they are trying hard to reconcile the errors and shortcomings with the Ellenolatry that is promoted so much in the conservative circles.

If a more balanced view was adopted as should have been like the church leaders at the 1919 GC discussion on EGW, we wouldn't have such a backlash and bitter diatribe against an woman who I believe was inspired and did have good things to say. She loved the Lord, of that there can be no doubt.

Unfortunately, the church's deification of her and her writings have tainted the gift that should have been a blessing were it understood and taught in the right light and with the proper perspective.

Everyone should read Bacchiocchi's newsletters on EGW and Graeme Bradford's book 'More Than a Prophet: How we lost and found again the real Ellen White"

THIS is the view that is so desperately needed in our church.

[John317]

I'll take a look, but the question about pressure to conform (in the leadership circles) is still on the table.

Could you expand on that issue? Are you talking about people saying they believe in order to get work or a position, etc.?

If that is what you mean, that was not John H. Kellogg's situation. By the 1890s, Kellogg was a wealthy, successful man who did not need his ties to the church in order to get what he wanted. One reason he hid his true beliefs about Ellen White is that he wanted the trust of people whom he knew accepted Ellen White. He wanted the support of important people in the church who were close to Ellen White, such as E.J. Waggoner and A.T. Jones. He was a very persuasive man, and he finally managed to get those men to side with him in his efforts to gain control of the hospital in Battle Creek. He also wanted to get the support of the church administrators and editors of the church papers.

Pressure to "conform" may occur in the case of others-- I am sure it does with some people.

I'm opposed to making Ellen White's writings a test of faith, and that's one of the reasons: I believe that belief in the SOP must come from study and cannot be based on an "order" to believe.

[John317]

Everyone should read Bacchiocchi's newsletters on EGW and Graeme Bradford's book 'More Than a Prophet: How we lost and found again the real Ellen White"

THIS is the view that is so desperately needed in our church.

I corresponded with Bacchiocchi about the Bradford book and have read it.

To be fair, however, it would be good to read the review by the EGW estate of Bradford's book.

Please explain briefly what Bradford's book means to you and how you view Ellen White as a result of reading it.

Could you say a few words about how Bradford's book has strengthen your belief in her writings, particularly as regards the Investigative Judgment and the Great Controversy.

[fccool]

I'm opposed to making Ellen White's writings a test of faith, and that's one of the reasons: I believe that belief in the SOP must come from study and cannot be based on an "order" to believe.

I could not agree with you more.