Robert Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love [agape], I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears [i.e., when we receive our glorified bodies, free from indwelling iniquity, we will fully understand agape]. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see [God, who is agape] face to face. Now I know [God, again who is agape] in part; then [when perfection comes] I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love [agape]. Quote
Woody Posted January 16, 2009 Posted January 16, 2009 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 16, 2009 Moderators Posted January 16, 2009 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love [agape], I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears [i.e., when we receive our glorified bodies, free from indwelling iniquity, we will fully understand agape]. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see [God, who is agape] face to face. Now I know [God, again who is agape] in part; then [when perfection comes] I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love [agape]. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 16, 2009 Moderators Posted January 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 How about on the "great controversy theme"? (I don't mean the book.) I see that theme as "agape" vs" "self-love" Quote: Don't you just love the Desire of Ages? If my experience with SDA had been less dogmatic when it came to EGW perhaps I could bring myself around to read her books, but I can't! Too many SDA ghosts. Don't let what you see as bad people or their bad theology keep you from doing what you would otherwise do. That's giving other people too much control over you. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 16, 2009 Moderators Posted January 16, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 How about on the "great controversy theme"? (I don't mean the book.) I see that theme as "agape" vs" "self-love" OK, but there's more involved than that and lots of implications that Calvinists, for instance, don't even consider. It explains why the Second Coming hasn't occurred yet. Christology and eschatology are closely connected to each other and to the great controversy theme. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 I have my moderator's hat on. Please use the "Notify button" from now on if you have a complaint. Moderators cannot be online all the time & read what is being said by everyone. (I had to be away from the computer most of the last several hours.) Reminder for all members-- Quote: 1) Don't call names or make personal attacks against other members. If you are are attacked, don't respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. 2) No belittling of individual members, their character, or their motives. Don't insult or mock other members or groups of members. Use of derogatory nicknames in reference to other members is prohibited. 3) Only rebut issues, NOT the members who write them. 4) Don't put words in other people's mouths that they have never said. (This does not, of course, prohibit quoting their words from previous posts.) 5) Don't use profanity or foul language in your postings. Don't post graphic or sexually explicit images or text. Don't violate community standards. Staff will remain the sole and final arbiter of what does and does not violate community standards. 6) Don't denigrate whole groups of people by the use of name-calling or negative stereotypes. Racist, hateful, sexist , or abusive language is strictly prohibited. Discussions regarding certain biblical interpretations on the roles of men and women will not be considered "sexist" under this rule. 7) Don't post on the public threads personal differences, arguments, rehashing of alleged grievances or disputes; or publicly complaining about posts or threads submitted in forums throughout the site. 8) No commercial messages, or spamming.Don't advertise commercial products or services. Commercial links / messages are only allowed on your own personal profile page and on your signatures. 9) Listen to, and cooperate with, moderators. If you have a problem with a moderator, who has identified that they are acting in their role as a moderator, take it to PM immediately. Challenging the decisions of moderators who are acting in that role in the open forum is not acceptable behavior. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I have nothing more to say on this topic Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 okay. I have now sent a notification. we will see ... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: I think it's obvious that Bible does not contain the whole truth, but only the essential ones that God deems to be a priority. Huh? No ... a double Huh? The Bible does not contain the whole truth? Where do you get YOUR truth from? See what the cult of EGW will do to a person's mind? The Bible does indeed contain all the truth that God saw fit to reveal to us in the Bible, of course. But there is much truth that it does not contain, truth that we won't know until after the Second Coming. It's also obvious that the Bible does not contain some things and some details that God revealed to Ellen White. It's possible that God will send another prophet through whom He will reveal still more truth, and some of those truths may not be in the Bible. The point is that the Bible contains ALL of the truth that anyone needs for salvation and sanctification, and God doesn't give revelations that contradict His previous revelations. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you mean the church or some individuals in the church? I believe the church as a whole does not practice enough what God showed Ellen White in vision about His will. (This includes God's will that His people should spend time in personal Bible study and prayer every day.) 4 areas where we as a people are falling short--- 1) The way our health institutions are run is largely contrary to Ellen White's counsels. 2) Ellen White wrote that all of our people need to have a good understanding for themselves of the Investigative Judgment and the work of our heavenly High Priest' date=' but most SDAs do not understand it, and most of the congregations seldom teach it. 3) The Health Message is little practiced and seldom emphasized or taught in the church as a whole. 4) Too many not seeing the necessity of preparing for Christ to return by purifying the soul temple through obedience to the whole truth, and separating sin from us. [/quote'] Making large sweeping statments .... usually gets one in trouble. I would have to disagree with this one. I'd like to hear what exactly you think is wrong here. Do you believe all of them are "sweeping statements" and do you disagree with all or just one or two? Could you explain what reason or evidence you have to support your viewpoint? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Nightingale Who are the so called "traditional SDAs" you are talking about? I for one am a 5th generation SDA and what I beleive comes from the Bible including the belief that there will be modern day prophets. A few on this forum feel that they know exactly what all or most SDAs beleive but go on to explain that they are either not an SDA or are an " ex SDA." Interesting!!!! I certainly feel that all should be welcome here to explain their own beliefs, but it is after all the unOFFICIAL ADVENTIST Forum. Is it not more than rude to constantly try to make those who do beleive look like they are somehow either unintelligent or being duped.?? Why do some few feel it necessary to come here and constantly try to prove that EGW is either not a prophet at all or not relevant today? It seems that some are stuck on the same subject that have been discussed over and over again. Has anyone changed their opinion because of these discussions? Or---is it getting more disgusting than discussion????? This is the good thing about a forum ... If you don't like what is being discussed ... you don't have to read or participate. But, please don't knock down what they are discussing. Some may want to discuss it. You may not. Please don't criticize what others are doing. Nightingale has a perfect right to voice her/his opinion about what he/she sees on the threads. We want her/him to feel welcome here. Speaking as the moderator, Nightingale has said nothing here that is contrary to the rules. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: fccool Quote: When you find men questioning the testimonies, finding fault with them, and seeking to draw away the people from their influence, be assured that God is not at work through them. It is another spirit. Doubt and unbelief are cherished by those who do not walk circumspectly. They have a painful consciousness that their life will not abide the test of the Spirit of God, whether speaking through His Word or through the testimonies of His Spirit that would bring them to His Word.1 SM. Don't you find that this is the type of spiritual blackmailing that cults do engage in. I.E. "How dare you to question that!!!!?? You are of the Devil!!!" Criticism and questions should be welcomed by any communities of believers. How else are you going to win over anyone other than patiently enduring and standing up to the criticism? This is so very true. Thank you for posting this. It does come close to being a cult. It is saying to us ... Don't Question. Just Follow. And then the conservatives get to say to all ... "Don't question the way we INTERPRET what Ellen White is saying. WE are the final authority and you must believe without question ... what WE think" Hmmmmm. Don't question? Believe as WE believe? Believe as WE interpret? Hmmmm. Do you think the quote from Ellen White comes close to being a cult? Think about what Ellen White has written here. I think she's making some valid, important points. Is she saying "never have questions"? Is she saying any particular group-- whether liberal or conservative-- has the right interpretation? Is she saying you must "believe as WE believe" or "believe as WE interpret"? I really don't think she's saying any of those things. We need to remember that these things are of God and were written for our benefit, not to hurt us. Is she telling the truth or not, when she writes such things? If it's the truth, we should listen and ask ourselves if we are being described in that paragraph. If it's not the truth, we should discard her writings because they would then be worse than mere lies. If they are not true, they are the lies of someone claiming to be writing under the guidance of the Spirit of God. I believe they're true. What do you think? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Is she telling the truth or not, when she writes such things? Not always! Take for example the following: Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [RH, 05-07-1901] Okay, according to God's spokesperson - the one angel's woke up in the morning - I must obey the law perfectly. That is, I must "obey and live" - but if I fail, then “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Well, I am going to question "God's spokesperson" because I believe she is taking liberties with Paul's writings that are simply not there. Take the phrase, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Does Paul use it legalistically – i.e., does Paul agree with EGW? Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law [salvation by obedience to the law] are under a curse; [why?] for it is written, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them." 11 Now it is evident that no one is righteous before God by the law; for "the justified, by faith, shall live" 12 But the law does not rest on faith; on the contrary, "Whoever does the works of the law [obeys the law] will by them, live." So EGW, who is not to be questioned since she is God's spokesperson, has taken the Apostle Paul's statement and turned it inside out. She has make of non-effect Paul's phrase and turned it into a legalistic, old covenant demand. I guess you could say that she is fallible after all? Rob Quote
Robert Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” So the question (that's right, I'm questioning EGW) is why would Ellen G. White give us Old Covenant demands when she herself equated these demands with the OC (see below)? The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live : “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “ cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [RH 10-17-2007] Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: EGW “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” So the question (that's right, I'm questioning EGW) is why would Ellen G. White give us Old Covenant demands when she herself equated these demands with the OC (see below)? The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live : “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “ cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [RH 10-17-2007] Questioning to find the meaning of something or in order to understand what she wrote is different from the kind of "questioning" that Ellen White is talking about in the quote we're referring to. We question the Bible as well in that sense-- that is, we ask what Paul means or why Peter or James or John said what they did. We have a sincere desire to know and understand God's will. We're not merely questioning with a view to causing others to doubt. So, a sincere seeking after truth is different from my saying, "I really don't think Paul is a true apostle. I reject Paul as God's messenger." Her quote talks about people who have known her or her writings but who are now trying to turn people against her. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: EGW “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” So the question (that's right, I'm questioning EGW) is why would Ellen G. White give us Old Covenant demands when she herself equated these demands with the OC (see below)? The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live : “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “ cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [RH 10-17-2007] I don't think there's anything wrong with that kind of questioning, Rob, and I don't believe she had that kind in mind. Just keep your mind open to the possibility that you could be wrong about your understanding of what she said. We've talked about those quotes many times, and I believe if you take the whole quote in its full context, you will see that Ellen White is not giving us the Old Covenant and expecting us to live under the law. Keep studying! I must now be off to bed. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Just keep your mind open to the possibility that you could be wrong about your understanding of what she said. And you could be wrong too! After all she isn't infallible, right? Quote
Woody Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Quote: Rob, and I don't believe she had that kind in mind. What I find interesting about the reading of Ellen White is that there is SO much of the trying to figure out what she had in mind. Those who don't want her to have any thing fallible .... will come up with all kinds of contorted thought processes to get into her head and find excuses for her comments. It is amazing to watch. The words they NEVER can utter is "perhaps she grew in her experience and had a better understanding later. This is the truth of the matter very often. I just wish that some here could admit that. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert So the question (that's right, I'm questioning EGW) is why would Ellen G. White give us Old Covenant demands when she herself equated these demands with the OC (see below)? The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live : “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “ cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26. [RH 10-17-2007'] Questioning to find the meaning of something or in order to understand what she wrote is different from the kind of "questioning" that Ellen White is talking about in the quote we're referring to. We question the Bible as well in that sense-- that is, we ask what Paul means or why Peter or James or John said what they did. We have a sincere desire to know and understand God's will. We're not merely questioning with a view to causing others to doubt. So, a sincere seeking after truth is different from my saying, "I really don't think Paul is a true apostle. I reject Paul as God's messenger." Her quote talks about people who have known her or her writings but who are now trying to turn people against her. I could be wrong here ... but it would appear that this poster is making comparison between Paul and questioning him ...with Ellen White and questioning her. Am I correct? The two are not comparable. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood This is the good thing about a forum ... If you don't like what is being discussed ... you don't have to read or participate. But, please don't knock down what they are discussing. Some may want to discuss it. You may not. Please don't criticize what others are doing.[/quote'] Nightingale has a perfect right to voice her/his opinion about what he/she sees on the threads. We want her/him to feel welcome here. Speaking as the moderator, Nightingale has said nothing here that is contrary to the rules. Speaking as a non moderator. I never indicated she was doing anything contrary to the rules. I mearly was stating my opinion for me personally. Just as she has the right to voice her opinion. I have the right to voice mine. Rules were not the subject of my post. But thanks for your opinion as a moderator. I agree with it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Just keep your mind open to the possibility that you could be wrong about your understanding of what she said. And you could be wrong too! After all she isn't infallible, right? Yes. Each person should be allowed to voice their opinion. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 it would appear that this poster is making comparison between Paul and questioning him ...with Ellen White and questioning her. Am I correct? No I was contrasting the phrases, "obey & live, disobey & die", from Ellen's and Paul's views. I agree with Paul and I disagree with Ellen. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 17, 2009 Moderators Posted January 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Just keep your mind open to the possibility that you could be wrong about your understanding of what she said. And you could be wrong too! After all she isn't infallible, right? Of course I could be wrong too. I'm not saying anything to you that I don't apply to myself and to anyone else. Yes, she is fallible. She was a sinner in need of Christ as much as any other human being. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted January 17, 2009 Members Posted January 17, 2009 Redwood each of us grows as we walk with God. I would also imagine EGW did also. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
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