Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Yes. Your post is absolutely accurate fccool. Some try to confuse what baptism means. The Devil is one who loves confusion. He tries to wiggle his ways in. The only thing that requires 'knowledge' is membership. Baptism (the indication that you want to learn about and follow Jesus) requires faith. Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Membership is not Biblical and is far more advanced. It is the elite statement of faith. In the NT times ... Baptism was the beginning. After they were baptized ... they learned truths. But now ... you have to both learn and demonstrate works in order to be baptized by an SDA pastor. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 It is interesting that when the gifts of the Spirit are listed ... that prophecy is listed towards the end next to speaking in tongues. This would seem to indicate to me that no gift is any better than another. The NT lists the gifts of the Spirit five times. Prophecy is the only gift that is listed all five times. In Romans 12: 6-8, prophecy is listed first. In the others-- 1 Cor. 12: 28 and Eph. 4: 11-- prophecy is listed second, after the apostles. (The list in 1 Cor. 7: 1-9 is speaking of the gifts of marriage or celibacy and therefore would not be expected to list "prophecy.") The five lists are found in 1 Cor. 12: 28 1 Cor. 12: 8-10 Eph. 4: 11 Romans 12: 6-8 1 Peter 4: 11 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 And this means something to you? Don't for one minute think that I believe what you say to be true ... for it is not. But even if it were true ... So what? What does this mean to you. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
bygjymbo Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 ...There's no indication in the Bible for a practice of re-Baptism (outside of foot washing).... Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 ...Prophecy is actually one of the last gifts near speaking in tongues (Not that order matters).But, I just can't imagine that we are to place value in one more than another. There certainly is no justification for it in scripture. The NT lists the gifts of the Spirit five times. Prophecy is the only gift that is listed all five times. In Romans 12: 6-8, prophecy is listed first. In the others-- 1 Cor. 12: 28 and Eph. 4: 11-- prophecy is listed second, after the apostles. Paul's lists themselves suggest a certain hierarchy among spiritual gifts. Apostles head the list because their witness to Christ is the very basis of the church. Second comes the prophets, and last of all, after the teachers, etc., comes the gift of tongues. It is obvious that Paul is not saying that the gift of tongues is of equal importance to the Apostles and prophets. Again, this is not saying that an apostle or prophet is "better" than anyone else. We're talking about the gift, not the individual whom God has given the gift. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 I stand corrected! Yet, I think you have to agree that there are very few churches( I have no heard of one) who would Baptize into any other name. But what some Adventist churches do... is say... the first Baptism was invalid because one did not come to know the whole truth... i.e. Sabbath keeping, and etc. Yet, I don't see such evidence Biblically. Quote
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 If the body of Christ is to function ... each of the parts are needed. You simply can't place a value on one or the other. The Bible simply does not do this. To do so would create a hirachy of believers. In the body ... the pastor is no different than the members. Each is equal. The issue of importance is simply not addressed for all are important. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: fccool ...There's no indication in the Bible for a practice of re-Baptism (outside of foot washing).... Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. This was referring to the Holy Spirit. So it no longer applies because all baptisms now include the Holy Spirit. So fccool ... you don't need to stand corrected. There is no Biblical example for Re-Baptism as we now perform baprism. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 Yes. Your post is absolutely accurate fccool. .. Did you speak perhaps too quickly? fccool said, Quote: I stand partially corrected! I admit that fccool has some valid points, but I also think the church has some valid reasons for doing what it does in terms of baptism. Can you think of any? You may want to ask your pastor. I bet he/she can give some reasons, although whether they are valid ones may be open to debate. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: bygjymbo Ac 19:3 And he said unto them' date=' Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [/quote'] This was referring to the Holy Spirit. So it no longer applies because all baptisms now include the Holy Spirit. So fccool ... you don't need to stand corrected. There is no Biblical example for Re-Baptism as we now perform baprism. The point is re-baptism per se is biblical, depending on circumstances. For instance, if a person gets baptized for the first time when they are young, and do not fully understand what they are doing-- and if they realize later on that they did not have the Holy Spirit at the time of the first baptism-- they may legitimately seek to be re-baptized. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Quote: The difference between the true prophet of God and the teacher or pastor is that whereas the prophet gets his message directly from God, the pastor and teacher gets the truth directly from Scripture. The Holy Spirit may guide the pastor or teacher into the truth of the word of God. God may even speak to his heart and mind through the Scripture and bring personal conviction to him through prayer. One and the same!!! Duh!! Quit trying to split hairs and change the meaning of words. God speaking is God speaking! Sheesh The wheel has been invented, the Earth is round, the Sky won't fall down,etc, etc, etc! Redwood, I leave it up to you! Some ego's just aren't worth the time!! Thanks CoA. I appreciate your support. But, there is so much to be addressed that I just don't have the energy. For instance this quote. If there ever was heresy. This is it. I happen to know some pastors. And I can tell you that they don't get their messages just from some words written down. They get direct messages and inspiration from God. This is no different than what the prophets got. Sorry. God speaks to us even now. I am sorry that this author has not had the experience of God speaking to him. But ... I have. I can only encourage him to pray more earnestly. For He will. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood This was referring to the Holy Spirit. So it no longer applies because all baptisms now include the Holy Spirit. So fccool ... you don't need to stand corrected. There is no Biblical example for Re-Baptism as we now perform baprism.[/quote'] Quote: The point is re-baptism per se is biblical, depending on circumstances. For instance, if a person gets baptized for the first time when they are young, and do not fully understand what they are doing-- and if they realize later on that they did not have the Holy Spirit at the time of the first baptism-- they may legitimately seek to be re-baptized. I can appreciate that you sincerely believe that. Your opinion is your opinion. But perhaps you would like to give some Biblical examples of this theory of yours. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood This was referring to the Holy Spirit. So it no longer applies because all baptisms now include the Holy Spirit. So fccool ... you don't need to stand corrected. There is no Biblical example for Re-Baptism as we now perform baprism.[/quote'] Quote: The point is re-baptism per se is biblical, depending on circumstances. For instance, if a person gets baptized for the first time when they are young, and do not fully understand what they are doing-- and if they realize later on that they did not have the Holy Spirit at the time of the first baptism-- they may legitimately seek to be re-baptized. I should also point out that this text referenced is referring to the mode of Baptism ... in other words ... at the time ... was the person baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. All baptisms now include that. So ... the Holy Spirit IS included whether one knows it or not. Thus ... this text is no justification in any way for Re-Baptism. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 Quote: The difference between the true prophet of God and the teacher or pastor is that whereas the prophet gets his message directly from God, the pastor and teacher gets the truth directly from Scripture. The Holy Spirit may guide the pastor or teacher into the truth of the word of God. God may even speak to his heart and mind through the Scripture and bring personal conviction to him through prayer. One and the same!!! Duh!! Quit trying to split hairs and change the meaning of words. God speaking is God speaking! Sheesh The wheel has been invented, the Earth is round, the Sky won't fall down,etc, etc, etc! The very word prophet means "one who speaks for God." He is God's mouthpiece, divine spokespersons. They do not communicate their own messages but the messages that God gives them. This involves an encounter with divine power which is different from the encounter that pastors and teachers experience. Compare, for instance, the encounters that Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel had with God. This can't be emphasized enough. That is what the gift of prophecy is and what his/her role in the church is. He receives messages directly from God through dreams or visions or hearing, and he gives those messages under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through "inspiration" or "God-breathing." No pastor or teacher wrote Scripture or inspired messages for the church. It's somewhat the same as the difference between the prophet and the priest in the Old Testament. The priest may do and say many good things as a result of the working of the Holy Spirit on his heart, but nowhere does the Bible say the typical priest was "inspired" and spoke the "the very words of God" as the prophets did. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 On the meaning and role of "prophet": The wikipedia-- Quote: In Judaism, a prophet is seen as a person who is selected by, and speaks as a formal representative of God, and the intention of the message is always to effect a social change to conform to God's desired standards initially specified in the Torah dictated to Moses. In Hebrew, the word traditionally translated as prophet is (navi), which means "spokesperson". This forms the second of the three letters of TaNaKh, derived from Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. The meaning of navi is perhaps described in Deuteronomy 18:18, where God said, "I will put my words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I command him." Thus, the navi was thought to be the "mouth" of God. In Christianity a prophet (or seer - 1 Samuel 9v9) is one inspired by God through the Holy Spirit to deliver a message for a specific purpose. It is often associated with predicting future events, but in Biblical terms it is wider and can include those given the power to preach repentance to those who do not want to hear the message and to warn of God's wrath for disobedience. God's calling as a prophet is not considered to elevate an individual for their glory, but for the glory of God and to turn people to him. Some Christian denominations would limit that and exclude those who receive a personal message not intended for the body of believers, but in the Bible on a number of occasions prophets were called to deliver personal messages (Matthew 14v1-7), 2 Kings 3v11)</ref>. The reception of a message is termed revelation and the delivery of the message is termed prophecy. Anyone who claims to speak God's words or teach in his name and is not a prophet the Bible terms a false prophet. One test given in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) contains a warning of those who prophecy events which do not come to pass and said they should be put to death. Elsewhere a false prophet may be someone who is purposely trying to deceive, is delusional, under the influence of Satan (for detail, see main article False prophet) or is speaking from his own spirit. Prophets are recognised to still be human and fallible, they may make wrong decisions, have incorrect personal beliefs or opinions, or sin from time to time. Their hearing of revelation does not remove all their humanity or perfect them, nor do they always want to deliver the messages they have heard (example Jonah). Nevertheless, some Christians believe the minimum requirements of a true prophet can be summarized as clear and not vague prophecies, 100% accuracy in predicting events and present day prophets must not contradict the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 .. Some try to confuse what baptism means. The Devil is one who loves confusion. He tries to wiggle his ways in. On the meaning of baptism-- Quote: 1. Death to sin. In baptism believers "have been united together in the likeness of His [Christ's] death" (Rom. 6:5) and "crucified with Christ" (Gal. 2:20). This means "our old man was crucified with Him, that the old body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin (Rom. 6:6-8). Believers have renounced their former lifestyle. They are dead to sin and confirm that the "old things have passed away" (2 Cor. 5:17), their lives being hid with Christ in God. Baptism symbolizes the crucifixion of the old life. It is not only a death but also a burial. We are "buried with Him in baptism" (Col. 2:12). As a burial follows a person's death, so when the believer goes down into the watery grave the old life that passed away when he accepted Jesus Christ is buried. In baptism believers renounced the world. In obedience to the command "'Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean'" (2 Cor. 6:17), candidates make public their forsaking of Satan's service and their receiving of Christ into the life. In the apostolic church the call to repentance included the call to baptism (Acts 2:38). Thus baptism also marks true repentance. Believers die to their transgressing of the law and abtain forgiveness of sin through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. The baptismal ceremony is a demonstration of an inner cleansing—the washing away of sins that have been confessed. 2. Alive to God. Christ's resurrection power goes to work in our lives. It enables us to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4)—dead now to sin, "but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). We testify that the only hope of a life victorious over the old nature is in the grace of a risen Lord who has provided a new spiritual life through the energizing power of the Holy Spirit. This new life lifts us to a higher plateau of human experience, giving us new values, aspirations, and desires that focus on a commitment to Jesus Christ. We are new disciples of our Saviour, and baptism is the sign of our discipleship. Source: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 19, 2009 Moderators Posted January 19, 2009 JOHN3:17--The point is re-baptism per se is biblical, depending on circumstances. For instance, if a person gets baptized for the first time when they are young, and do not fully understand what they are doing-- and if they realize later on that they did not have the Holy Spirit at the time of the first baptism-- they may legitimately seek to be re-baptized. Quote: REDWOOD-- I should also point out that this text referenced is referring to the mode of Baptism ... in other words ... at the time ... was the person baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. All baptisms now include that. So ... the Holy Spirit IS included whether one knows it or not. Thus ... this text is no justification in any way for Re-Baptism. Here we have an interesting case. The prophet of God disagrees with you. Ellen White says that the Bible example in Acts shows that rebaptism is sometimes appropriate: Quote: Reconversion and Rebaptism of Seventh-day Adventists.--The Lord calls for a decided reformation. And when a soul is truly reconverted, let him be rebaptized. Let him renew his covenant with God, and God will renew His covenant with him. . . . Reconversion must take place among the members, that as God's witnesses they may testify to the authoritative power of the truth that sanctifies the soul.-- Letter 63, 1903. Evangelism (1946), page 375, paragraph 2 Rebaptism When the Former Baptism Does Not Satisfy.-- There are many at the present day who have unwittingly violated one of the precepts of God's law. When the understanding is enlightened, and the claims of the fourth commandment are urged upon the conscience, they see themselves sinners in the sight of God. "Sin is the transgression of the law" and "he that shall offend on one point is guilty of all." Evangelism (1946), page 372 The honest seeker after truth will not plead ignorance of the law as an excuse for transgression. Light was within his reach. God's Word is plain, and Christ has bidden him search the Scriptures. He reveres God's law as holy, just, and good, and he repents of his transgression. By faith he pleads the atoning blood of Christ, and grasps the promise of pardon. His former baptism does not satisfy him now. He has seen himself a sinner, condemned by the law of God. He has experienced anew a death to sin, and he desires again to be buried with Christ by baptism, that he may rise to walk in newness of life. Such a course is in harmony with the example of Paul in baptizing the Jewish converts. That incident was recorded by the Holy Spirit as an instructive lesson for the church.--Sketches From the Life of Paul, p. 133. (1883) Not to Be Made a Testing Question for New Believers.--The subject of rebaptism should be handled with the greatest care. After the truth is presented upon the Sabbath question and other important points of our faith, and souls manifest the moral courage to take their position upon the truth, they will see this question in the Bible light if they are fully converted. But by some these questions have been handled unwisely, and God has sent reproof many times on this point. Those who place the subject of rebaptism in the front, making it of as much importance as the Sabbath question, are not leaving the right impression upon the minds and correctly representing the subject. It requires great discrimination to bring in kindred truths with the Sabbath, rightly dividing the Word, giving to each his portion of meat in due season.Evangelism (1946), page 372, 373 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 You are nothing more than an apologists for Ellen White. You are unwilling to discuss those statements from her writings that are in error. Have it your way. Rob Quote
messenger Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Amen brother John3:17 Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
messenger Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Amen brother John317 well said! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
messenger Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: aldona Quote: The thing is EGW is not a test of fellowship with the SDA church, Just try to request baptism while having doubts about the prophetic role of EGW, and see how far you get. One of our Christian friends of another denomination used to say that "Adventists are baptised into EGW, not into Christ." Why do you believe this is the case? Do you think there is any justification for it? I think you'll find there's no uniform practice throughout the SDA church. It really depends, too, on the baptismal candidate's knowledge and expressed views regarding Ellen White. For instance, if someone has only been introduced to Ellen White and has the attitude of being willing to study more before making up their mind about whether she is a prophet of God-- I don't believe there would be any objection made to their being baptized. But let's say a person is teaching others that Ellen White is a false prophet or that she cannot be depended on, then I would not be surprised if that person has a problem being accepted into membership in the church. The church expects people to grow in their awareness, understanding, and appreciation of the gift of prophecy. That is the way it is supposed to be. Very few people know very much about her when they first join the church. Good points brother! Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
messenger Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Amen, very good replies bro. John317 Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
fccool Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 Quote: Here we have an interesting case. The prophet of God disagrees with you. Ellen White says that the Bible example in Acts shows that rebaptism is sometimes appropriate... And this is again the case where you cling to E.G.White's interpretation of the Bible, instead of letting the Bible interpret itself. In some cases, I agree that if person does not understand the MESSAGE OF SALVATION, then we can not honestly call it Biblical Baptism. It's just a person got dipped under water... as many people do while attending local pool. The point is that there is NO NONE ZIP examples of people falling away, and then coming back to be re-Baptized. And the example of the "Baptism of John" is not quite appropriate in this case, mainly because ... Quote: For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit a few days from now. Quote
messenger Posted January 19, 2009 Posted January 19, 2009 "There are some who indulge in levity, sarcasm, and even mockery toward those who differ with them. Others present an array of objections to any new view; and when these objections are plainly answered by the words of Scripture, they do not acknowledge the evidence presented, nor allow themselves to be convinced. Their questioning is not for the purpose of arriving at truth, but was intended merely to confuse the minds of others. {GW92 128.1} "Some have thought it an evidence of intellectual keenness and superiority to perplex minds in regard to what is truth. They resort to subtlety of argument, to playing upon words; they take unjust advantage in asking questions. When their questions have been fairly answered, they will turn the subject, bring up another point, to avoid acknowledging the truth. We should beware of indulging the spirit which controlled the Jews. They would not learn of Christ, because his explanation of the Scriptures did not agree with their ideas; therefore they became spies upon his track, "laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him." [LUKE 11:54, 52.] Let us not bring upon ourselves the fearful denunciation of the Saviour's words, "Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." [LUKE 11:54, 52.] {GW92 128.2} Quote "Sanctify them by the truth"
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 19, 2009 Members Posted January 19, 2009 you don't need to YELL at us!!!!! Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.