Alcohol.....

[Liz]

Is there a place in the Bible where it says to abstain from every drop of alcohol? I know it says not to get drunk but that is far different that completely abstaining.

Is having an occasional drink a sin or merely a vice?

[Woody]

Quote:

Is having an occasional drink a sin or merely a vice?

Is there a difference?

[Woody]

Good one dgrimm60 ...

I have one of Samuel Bacchiocchi's books on the topic. It is sitting in my library and there it may sit for long time. It appears far more heavy than this brain allows.

IOWs this brain VETOed it.

[Dr. Shane]

I am myself a recovered alcoholic. I state that just up front in case it influences my opinion. I do not see a Biblical prohibition against drinking itself but I think we are cautioned against its use and prohibited from drunkenness.

There are two types of wine in the Bible. There is new wine (Prov. 3:10) and red wine (Prov. 23:31) The latter reference is a warning. "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." This is clearly a reference to fermented wine. There are other warnings in Proverbs. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (20:1) "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." (31:4, 5).

Yet in the following verses we see a context where alcohol consumption is permissible. "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." (31:6, 7) In these situation alcohol is used as a medication.

We must also remember in context the wine we have today would be considered strong drink in Biblical times. Most beer is at least 4.5% alcohol. Budweiser is 5%. Miller is 4.7% Some is as much as 6.5%. Wine is allowed to have up to 14% alcohol. They average 12% to 13% - more than double the amount found in beer. If it is fortified wine it may have as much as 20% alcohol. Today we typically consider liquor like whiskey, vodka and tequila to be hard drink. Those liquors are 40% to 50% alcohol.

Biblical scholars believe the fermented wine was drank by believers in Biblical times it was most likely weak wine with .5% to 3% alcohol. The Greek word for that wine is "OINOS". The stronger wine of 5% to 12% is what would have been considered strong drink. The Greek word for that is "SIKERA". So nearly all modern-day beer would have been considered strong drink in Biblical times.

Drinking alcohol is most certainly playing with fire. Well over 50% of teenage pregnancies are the result of alcohol. That statistic simply illustrates how alcohol impairs our judgment. That is exactly why drinking and driving is illegal. Our judgment is impaired when we consume alcohol. How can we possible fight off the devil's temptations when our judgment is impaired? Add to that the fact that alcohol is highly addictive and that nearly ten percent of the population are prone to developing alcoholism (that figure is higher in some ethnic groups). Sinful or not, drinking alcohol is most certainly a form of Russian rolet.

[Beryl]

Quote:

Our judgment is impaired when we consume alcohol. How can we possible fight off the devil's temptations when our judgment is impaired?

If there was no other reason to stay well clear of alcohol, that one reason is sufficient.

20% of a glass of alcohol goes directly into the bloodstream from the stomach, and so almost immediately it reaches the brain, where the first place it enters is the frontal lobe.

The frontal lobe is where all decisions are made, and the alcohol has an immediate impact on the decision making. This is one of the main reasons why men with other activities in mind will buy the female a drink. Alcohol will affect a female faster than a male because of a difference in body size, etc. By the time she has finished that first drink, she is easily influenced.

The frontal lobe is where the Holy Spirit speaks to us -- and it is also the place where Satan can tempt us! The presence of alcohol makes it easier for the old devil to tempt a person to do the wrong things, and it also makes it harder for the Holy Spirit to influence a person for good.

For that reason alone, I would not touch it.

Beryl

[olger]

Wine is a mocker. In other words it gets the last laugh. Best to avoid it completely.

If you have too many brain cells, by all means kill some of them off.

This thread is aimed at no one in particular.

oG

[Gerr]

Quote:

Drinking alcohol is most certainly playing with fire. Well over 50% of teenage pregnancies are the result of alcohol.

And I thought pregnancy was the result of the invasion by those microscopic wiggly critters!

[Woody]

Wine is a mocker. In other words it gets the last laugh. Best to avoid it completely.

If you have too many brain cells, by all means kill some of them off.

This thread is aimed at no one in particular.

oG

The fact is that we DO have too many brain cells. We only use about 10% of the number that we have.

[phkrause]

Redwood I'm not sure that that is what is ment when they say that we don't use are full capicity. But I think I understand what your saying. The other thing I'm pretty sure about is that I don't have enough brain cells!! hahahaha

[Woody]

I'm with you on that one pk.

[Liz]

Quote:

Is having an occasional drink a sin or merely a vice?

Is there a difference?

Isn't a "sin" a transgression of the law; and a "vice" just a bad habit?

[Woody]

I dunno. I think bad habits are sins. But it may depend upon how one defines sin. And there are many definitions. But I think it is anything that separates us from God.

[Liz]

Well, then if it is all bad--and I tend to agree with you that it is. Then why don't we treat the people who can't leave all the ice cream and cupcakes alone, with the same respect we treat people who have an occasional drink?

In other words, we try and get the occasional drinker to completely stop drinking, and yet we say nothing to the people who eat ice cream.

[Woody]

Well, then if it is all bad--and I tend to agree with you that it is. Then why don't we treat the people who can't leave all the ice cream and cupcakes alone, with the same respect we treat people who have an occasional drink?

In other words, we try and get the occasional drinker to completely stop drinking, and yet we say nothing to the people who eat ice cream.

I'm with you Liz. I agree with your issue here. But you could take it even further ... Why don't we treat ALL sinners the same. You know ... we are ALL sinners saved by His blood.

[Bravus]

Seems like it's my role to be the advocatus diaboli here these days - not one I particularly relish, but...

I'd be prepared to argue fairly strongly that having a couple of alcoholic drinks is neither a sin nor a vice but a perfectly healthy part of a balanced life.

We've been through this issue before, but all the medical evidence suggests that from a health perspective, heavy drinking is bad, but light drinking is actually healthier than abstention. If we truly have a health message, shouldn't we be living the healthiest possible life?

The Bible clearly forbids drunkenness, but aside from a few people laid aside for special missions and laid under special conditions, does not forbid all alcohol. (Dr. Bacchiochi's rather tortured logics to the contrary.) (If we're going to follow Sampson's abstinence from alcohol are we also going to follow his abstinence from barbering? Same exact cause.)

I can definitely understand the case of alcoholics, who need to completely abstain, and would support them in all possible ways, including not drinking around them and hiding or removing any alcohol from their vicinity. But to claim that everyone needs to be abstinent on this basis is taking something too far, in my opinion.

The original question in this thread was 'what does the Bible say', and it's pretty clear that the Bible does not require total abstinence. If people choose to abstain for other reasons, then more power to them, and they have my full support, but how about we get our Sola Scriptura on first and tell them honestly what the Bible says?

[Nan]

Just picking up on a point - and I must admit I have not done my own research on this - have all the studies

that show some benefit from 'light drinking' included a control group that takes nonalcoholic grape juice?

Maybe that should read 'any of the studies'.

I would find it difficult to disagree with your interpretation of the scripture, although I have chosen

not to take alcohol myself. I guess another aspect is not to be a stumbling block to others who may

have a problem.

[Bravus]

Agreed on that last point - but surely that can generally be done by simply avoiding drinking in their presence, rather than avoiding drinking entirely. You know, like Paul said about eating meat and so on.

And on the grape juice thing, some studies did use that comparison. But even trials with light drinking of beer have shown benefits - it does seem that alcohol, as well as being enjoyable, is helpful in small quantities, but like almost everything harmful in large quantities.

I definitely have no brief to encourage anyone to drink. I think a teetotal lifestyle is eminently sensible for dozens of reasons, and would encourage everyone to adopt it.

But the original question asked was 'what does the Bible say?' And so far no-one has been willing to give a clear, simple, unqualified answer to that question.

[Dr. Shane]

Studies have shown that ten drinks per week significantly increase a person's chance for several types of cancer. A wine company in America was made to remove an ad they placed on their wine display in a liquor store by the ATF because the ad stated that drinking wine was good for the heart. While technically true the ATF ruled it was misleading because it did not inform consumers about the increased risk of cancer.

After years of lobbying the ATF has finally approved two labels that wine companies can use. "The proud people who made this wine encourage you to consult your family doctor about the health effects of wine consumption;" or "To learn the health effects of wine consumption, send for the Federal Government's Dietary Guidelines for Americans; Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion, USDA, 1120 20th Street, NW, Washington, D.C. 20036 or visit its Web site http://www.usda/gov.fcs/cnpp.htm--Wine Institute." That is a far cry from a government endorsement.

[Neil D]

The question of what the bible says regarding drinking shows that drinking in moderation is acceptable.

The question of what is "moderation" or what is "light drinking" is applicable only to the individual. A 250 lb man can consume more alcohol and have fewer side effects than an 130 lb woman...Moderation is a personal value...Maybe one or two glasses of red wine per week might be just enough to keep one healthy in the optimum...However, to an alcoholic, that might be just a starting point....

We might conclude that the bible is advocating that a person is to eat from the best the land has to offer that would give us healthy bodies....

[Woody]

The problem is ... "Bet cha can't eat just one"

[Neil D]

The problem is ... "Bet cha can't eat just one"

Well, I have to admit...for some, that is a problem......

Luckily, I don't have that problem....I have tried wines before...my problem is that I have two guards at the back of my throat...and when they see it, they send it back....I call them "the tonsils".....

[Dr. Shane]

When we look at what the Bible says we have to take it in context. If Biblical wine was only 2% - 3% alcohol, as Biblical scholars believe, that would mean one glass of modern wine would equal six or seven glasses of Biblical wine. If we want to drink alcohol in the quantities that our Bible heros did we need to drink it in shot glasses and limit ourselves to one a day.

[John317]

Shane, have you seen or read Dr. Bacchiochi's book, Wine In the Bible? It's a good book. I used to enjoy drinking vodka and whatnot, but my parents gave me that book, I read it, and became convinced I should stop. No more vodka or Southern Comfort.

[Dr. Shane]

I have not read that specific book. I have read a lot on the topic by non-Adventist authors. Being a recovered alcoholic, I have practiced total abstinence for the past 23 years - since I was 16. Drinking alcohol for a heath benefit seems a little fool-hearty to me. There is a small target of just the right drinks over just the right period of time that one has to hit in order for it to benefit the heart and not increase the risk of cancer. Obviously few people are ever going to hit that target which is why the ATF will not let wine companies tell consumers that wine is healthy for them.

[Bravus]

Still lots of deviation from Sola Scriptura here.

What does the Bible say?