Alcohol.....

[John317]

May I suggest reading, online: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7818027/Wine-in-the-Bible-unabridged-by-Samuele-Bacchiocchi

Excellent book.

[John317]

Naw, haven't you heard-- the Bible means anything anyone wants it to say, at least that's what some people say.

[John317]

I've heard that when they do autopsies on people who drink a lot, they find that their livers and kidneys, and sometimes the brains, are pretty well shot but they sure do have nice, clear arteries.

[Kountzer]

Just from personal observation, there are a lot of drunk drivers on the road. Quite often I will be driving down the freeway and I will see the guy in the next lane turning up a beer. You see on tv all the time where police arrest drunk drivers, or a fatality occurs because someone is inebriated. I don't think they catch a fraction of the drunks out there.

For the vast majority of secular people, going out drinking is acceptable. If you are not drinking you're not having fun. You didn't experience anything. Then you couple that with people's obsession with automobiles. You have a crazy and dangerous situation.

DB

[Bravus]

"For the vast majority of secular people, going out drinking is acceptable. If you are not drinking you're not having fun."

I'm sorry my friend, but how are we going to win people for Christ when we're that clueless about what they actually do and enjoy?

[Woody]

I have to admit ... I don't have a clue how to tolerate being around someone who is drunk. I have a personal space that I like to maintain. And when a drunk gets in my face ... I feel invaded and uncomfortable. Wish I didn't. But that is the way it is.

[Bravus]

Drinker != drunk

[Kountzer]

How can I be clueless when I am talking about stuff I see and hear on a regular basis. If anyone is clueless it is you. A darwinian adventist? That's the epitome of cluelessness.

[fccool]

Are a couple glasses of wine over dinner lead one to being drunk? Perhaps some, not others. But the issue is not with alcohol, the issue is self control. What some adventists would argue that it's even wrong to taste wine. I don't think so. I've tasted wine on many occasions. I don't like it as it is quite sower... and beer is even more disgusting.

Whenever I visit my homeland... I do drink something called "kvas". What kvas is ... fermented culture (mostly from bread) that does contain about 0.2% - 0.5% alcohol. I hardly felt buzz or lost control. You'd have to drink a couple of gallons of it at once before any of the above happens.

The point is that water is toxic in large amounts... you can die from water intoxication... I know it sounds weird, but true... either that, or your brain gets permanently damaged.

The issue with wine is self control. For some it may be completely abstaining from any kinds of alcohol. I personally don't, although I don't drink anything that contains it 1% and above.

[fccool]

I understand that part. But you assert that my drinking 0.2%-0.5% alcoholic beverage once in 8 years is in fact not honoring the Creator?

[Woody]

I worked as a lab technician in a small room with 200 proof alcohol. I never drank the stuff ... but it sure made me dizzy and suffer from a headache. Not for me. No way.

[Tom Wetmore]

...when JESUS was on the cross im MATTHEW---LUKE---JOHN all mention that JESUS was offer vinegar but refuse... vinegar is fermented... so it is not just getting drunk it is not taking any thing in to your body that is fermented...

Actually that is wrong.

The gospels note that Jesus was offered cheap or sour wine (vinegar) twice. The first time was before they nailed him to the cross, no doubt to ease the pain. At that point he refused the wine. But while on the cross, just before he expired the cheap wine was offered to him again, and none of the gospels say that he refused it at that point. John, the one gospel writer that was actually an eye-witness to the crucifixion says that Jesus did take the wine that time.

Scripture clearly says that Jesus said "I am thirsty", they gave him the cheap wine and "When he had received the drink" he said "It is finished." Then he bowed his head and died. - John 19:28-30.

Tom

[Woody]

Okay Tom. But that was in a moment of weakness. Surely we can't expect Him to resist at that point while hanging in misery on the cross. He may have been out of His right mind at that point.

[Woody]

U B Right Dgrimm. That would be like laying in bed asleep and someone forcing alcohol down your throat. I don't think we can build a theology around that.

[Gail]

I've been around people (lifelong Adventists) who did a mocking thing (playing drunk) when someone brought along a dessert that was flavoured with some sort of spirit.

To me, that's a bit much.

[phkrause]

Like I've mentioned on a few occasions dgrimm. I think its up to the individual and his savior as to drinking or not. The Lord knows our motives. As far as all these tests are concerned, one says one thing and one says the other. We all know that alcohol kills brain cells. So I guess the only thing that people can do, is look at the pros and cons. The other thing all of us know is that the grapes in the wine are the good part. My question would be is what do we need the alcohol for? Even if it has a few benefits it still has many nonbenefits!!!!!! We know that it kills brain cells. And than there are all the deaths related to alcohol consumsion. I guess some see that as a benefit!!!!!!!!

pk

[fccool]

The reality is that there are more death from overeating than from alcoholism. Today, alcohol is not as much of a problem in church than obesity.

I think that the warning about the alcohol is clear Biblically, but again... I don't see (nor there's any kind of evidence) that drinking certain lightly fermented drinks that contain near to none alcohol content would be damaging to your body or your brain. Quite the opposite. It has been proven that in this case, the fermentation contents are actually beneficial as it contains bacteria that aid digestion and prevent intestinal cancer development.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/07/11...ting-in-the.htm

[Bravus]

Vinegar is *not* alcohol! Chemically, when alcohol (ethanol) is oxidised by being exposed to air it turns into an aldehyde - ethanal or acetaldehyde - and then into a carboxylic acid - ethanoic acid. Vinegar is ethanoic acid: the white vinegar you can buy is simply a solution of ethanoic acid in water, while other vinegars are made from wine. But all the alcohol has been converted into acid, so there is zero alcohol content. So that whole argument is moot.

I'm still waiting for a clear and simple case that the Bible requires complete abstinence. I've seen lots of opinion and lots of human reasoning (and a fair bit of prejudice), but zero real Biblical argument (a link to Dr Bacchiochi's book doesn't really count).

The clear and honest answer to the original question of whether the Bible explicitly requires complete abstinence is, as far as I can tell, 'No'. Anyone care to challenge that Biblically.

[Bravus]

Kountzer, how about we avoid going to irrelevant issues like my beliefs around origins (which you mischaracterised anyway) and stick to the point.

Please note that I didn't mean to call *you* clueless, just your views, and may not have said that as clearly as I should. But your claim that the 'vast majority' of non-Christians go out drinking in order to get drunk is simply nonsense. A small number, of usually younger people or people with otherwise dead-end lives, do drink to get drunk, and do regularly drink to excess. There are a large number of non-Christians who don't drink at all for health reasons, and another large group who drink very rarely, small quantities and only on social occasions. And the reason for drinking is not to get drunk but because they enjoy the flavour and the social time with friends.

Simply put, you either do not understand anything about drinking or why and how normal people use alcoholic drinks, or you were dramatically overstating the case for rhetorical purposes. Of course you have observed abuse of alcohol, everyone has. But to talk about the 'vast majority' is, I'm afraid, clueless.

[Bravus]

Naw, haven't you heard-- the Bible means anything anyone wants it to say, at least that's what some people say.

True, but I'm not one of those people - my insistence throughout this thread on knowing what the Bible says shows I believe there is a correct answer to questions about what the Bible says - and you're clearly not, so mentioning those people is perhaps not that relevant. (Or maybe I'm just over-reacting to a quip.) Anyway, for us pre-post-modernists, what does it say?

[Bravus]

Proverbs 31:6

[fccool]

dgrimm ... fermented milk?... it's called yogurt BTW (or sour cream), or in Russia - Kefir. Last I've heard it's pretty beneficial. Not all fermented substances are bad. There are plenty of product that are cultured today by means of fermentation... and I'm sure that you've eaten these.

Can you provide Many varieties breads that are sold are puffed up by means of yeast cultures... fermented.

[Bravus]

Yep, yeast in bread does *exactly* the same thing as yeast in brewing or wine-making: eats sugar and excretes alcohol and carbon dioxide. In 'flat' alcoholic drinks the alcohol is retained and the CO2 allowed to escape, in sparkling or fizzy ones both are retained. In bread the alcohol is cooked off during baking and the carbon dioxide makes the holes in the bread that make it light and fluffy. So I guess by your logic, dg, you only eat unleavened bread?

[Dr. Shane]

Proverbs 31:6

This is justification for using alcohol as a medicine. I agree that is clearly Biblical and do not believe the Adventist church opposes using alcohol as a medicine.

[Dr. Shane]

The reality is that there are more death from overeating than from alcoholism. Today, alcohol is not as much of a problem in church than obesity.

Alcoholism and overeating are two separate issues. Both of my parents were baptized Adventists and both were alcoholics. I went to Adventist schools through the eight grade and rarely missed a Sabbath at church. Alcoholism is very much an issue in the Adventist church.

While overeating may rob a person of a few years of life, alcoholism is a much more demanding creditor. Alcohol sucks up the family's funds and often leaves dysfunction in its wake. While the overeater can be a loving, gentle, kind and generous soul, the alcoholic tears through the lives around him or her like a tornado oblivious to the damage being done.

It would be a mistake for the church to only focus on helping one of these groups. However if they did have to choose one over the other, alcoholics need more attention than to the overeaters. Overeaters certainly need help in controlling their diet and getting into an exercise routine. How not too many children and spouses of overeaters are going to need psychological help to due to their relationship with the overeater.