Alcohol.....

[Dr. Shane]

Whenever I visit my homeland... I do drink something called "kvas". What kvas is ... fermented culture (mostly from bread) that does contain about 0.2% - 0.5% alcohol.

Biblical wine is estimated to have had an alcohol content of about 3%-4% alcohol so it sounds like kvas is well below that. I think near-beer has about as much alcohol as what you are saying kvas has. It is nearly impossible to drink enough of it to get intoxicated.

[Woody]

Okay. This shows how ignorant I am ... but why does one like to drink beer? Does it actually taste good or is it just the after effects that are liked?

[Bravus]

It tastes extremely good, ice cold on a hot day. It's an acquired taste, I guess, but no, definitely enjoyed for the taste, and low alcohol (1.5%) and mid-strength (3% instead of 5%) are very popular these days.

[Dr. Shane]

Beer is an acquired taste like coffee. Once a person acquires the taste they can enjoy a glass of non-alcoholic beer or a cup of decaf coffee.

[Kountzer]

Kountzer, how about we avoid going to irrelevant issues like my beliefs around origins (which you mischaracterised anyway) and stick to the point.

Please note that I didn't mean to call *you* clueless, just your views, and may not have said that as clearly as I should. But your claim that the 'vast majority' of non-Christians go out drinking in order to get drunk is simply nonsense. A small number, of usually younger people or people with otherwise dead-end lives, do drink to get drunk, and do regularly drink to excess. There are a large number of non-Christians who don't drink at all for health reasons, and another large group who drink very rarely, small quantities and only on social occasions. And the reason for drinking is not to get drunk but because they enjoy the flavour and the social time with friends.

Simply put, you either do not understand anything about drinking or why and how normal people use alcoholic drinks, or you were dramatically overstating the case for rhetorical purposes. Of course you have observed abuse of alcohol, everyone has. But to talk about the 'vast majority' is, I'm afraid, clueless.

You misquoted what I wrote. I said that I often see people driving on the freeway turning up a can of beer. This is something I have seen several times. Make your own conclusions what it means. I also said that for the vast majority of secular people, alcohol consumption plays a large part in their social entertainment. Not all secular people drink, but many do.

[Bravus]

You made the point, fccool, that nothing fermented should enter the body. That is a completely different point from alcohol. By that logic, neither vinegar nor bread should ever be consumed. If you consume bread, then clearly you do not hold to your own logic, or perhaps don't fully understand it.

The fact remains that Jesus' refusal of vinegar, possibly mixed with wormwood (the active ingredient, other than alcohol, in absinthe) is in no way an argument against drinking moderate amounts of alcohol.

[Bravus]

And I'm *still* not seeing that strong, definitive Biblical case.

[Dr. Shane]

I agree that Jesus refusal to drink whatever it was is not a teaching against alcohol consumption. As I have stated here already, I do think people in Biblical days did drink a weak wine but it was not the same kind of wine sold by commercial wineries today. Ten drinks a week is moderate drinking by most people's standards and yet increases the risk of cancer substantially.

[Bravus]

That's

(a) still extra-biblical reasoning, basically not that different from arguing away other Bible teachings as 'only cultural' and

( not a Biblically-based case for complete abstinence.

As I've said before, I'm *not* trying to argue here that alcohol consumption is a Good Thing... I just want to see consistency. The original question was about what the Bible says, and we keep seeing everything but.

[Dr. Shane]

Alcohol consumption raises cancer risk - wine included

Consumption of alcohol, including wine, increases the risk of several common cancers, even though many studies confirm a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease from alcohol intake. An article appearing in the Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis presents definite evidence of these findings amongst other papers as part of an open forum discussion on wine, alcohol, and cardiovascular risk.

"Moderate alcohol drinking, less than 25 grams per day, has a favorable role on cardiovascular disease risk," states Professor Carlo La Vecchia, co-author of the article. "[However] it is associated with increased risk of cancers of the upper digestive tract and larynx, and also of the intestines, liver, and breast." The article lists primary liver cancer, cancers of the female breast and of the large bowel in both sexes, as being associated with alcohol drinking. Further death from diseases including cirrhosis, chronic pancreatitis, hypertension and stroke are strongly related to alcohol drinking.

The analysis was based on a quantitative review, or meta-analysis, of 156 different studies, and heavy alcohol drinking was strongly linked to the diseases noted. The risks are shown to increase with the amount of alcohol consumed yet the overall evidence does not determine "whether there is any threshold, below which no effect is evident."

[text taken from link]

[Dr. Shane]

That's

(a) still extra-biblical reasoning, basically not that different from arguing away other Bible teachings as 'only cultural' and

( not a Biblically-based case for complete abstinence.

I don't try to make the case for complete abstinence. But... there are not a lot of alcoholic beverages on the market with 3%-4% alcohol and the only use of strong drink I see in the Bible is for medical purposes.

[Bravus]

Quote:

The analysis was based on a quantitative review, or meta-analysis, of 156 different studies, and heavy alcohol drinking was strongly linked to the diseases noted. The risks are shown to increase with the amount of alcohol consumed yet the overall evidence does not determine "whether there is any threshold, below which no effect is evident.

No evidence is no evidence. This study does not report that moderate use causes these cancers. It reports that heavy use does, and reports that on the basis of the data it is impossible to determine whether light use does.

[True-believer]

Did you know CoAspen...

SDA's do believe in dancing, well, I love dancing.

There is nothing wrong with dancing according to the Bible--it is NOT condemn!!!

I could dance all night and around the clock all for the glory of God!!!

Dancing for Jesus is COOL!!!

[phkrause]

Redwood I have always hated the taste of beer, sorry bravus , I remember one time in the army, I had just been given an article 13 for saying a very nasty word to an officer. So they gave to 2 weeks of extra duty. That duty was to go out and cut grass every day when I was done when my regular job. One day it was so hot out there and I was so thirsty. The nearest thing to drink was in my room that I shared with another SDA, who was an alcoholic, He had a bottle of beer in his locker and I knew how to get it. So I drank the whole thing. That was the only time that beer was so good . Other than that I have never like the taste, I'm not sure that I liked it even than but it did quench my thirst.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

This study does not report that moderate use causes these cancers. It reports that heavy use does, and reports that on the basis of the data it is impossible to determine whether light use does.

"The risks are shown to increase with the amount of alcohol consumed yet the overall evidence does not determine 'whether there is any threshold, below which no effect is evident.'"

The study clearly shows that the more alcohol a person consumes the greater their chances of cancer become. It doesn't show if there is a threshold below which it is safe to drink. That means they are unable to determine if two drinks a day are safe or one drink a day is safe. They have determine that as a person's alcohol intake increases so does their risk of cancer.

Let's put this in perspective. One serving of wine is four ounces. One serving of beer is twelve ounces. These are small quantities of alcohol. So when a study does show that one or two servings per day can be safe, I don't even know if we want to call that moderate drinking. I am more inclined to call that light drinking. And that "light" drinking would be consistent with what Biblical scholars believe the wine in Biblical times was.

[Woody]

Redwood I have always hated the taste of beer, sorry bravus , I remember one time in the army, I had just been given an article 13 for saying a very nasty word to an officer. So they gave to 2 weeks of extra duty. That duty was to go out and cut grass every day when I was done when my regular job. One day it was so hot out there and I was so thirsty. The nearest thing to drink was in my room that I shared with another SDA, who was an alcoholic, He had a bottle of beer in his locker and I knew how to get it. So I drank the whole thing. That was the only time that beer was so good . Other than that I have never like the taste, I'm not sure that I liked it even than but it did quench my thirst.

pk

IF beer helps quench your thirst and one bottle did it .... why do people have to drink more than one bottle?

[Woody]

Thanks CoA ... you are so helpful. Ha Ha ...