Why does the subject of "agape" generate so little interest?

[Robert]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape?], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Contrast this with another favorite quote of mine:

"We [context - believers] may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [i.e., the glory of God - His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; [how so?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28]

I'm going to pick on Madonna for a moment. She's into this "Kabbalaism" thing. It's a very egocentric, good works trip religion. She gives free concerts and the proceeds go to charity, AIDS prevention and such.

Now she doesn't claim Christianity and so that leads to a question: Are her works free of self or are her so called good works polluted with self-interests?

I can promise you that without Jesus Christ, through the Spirit, everything she does...everything we do, in and of ourselves, is polluted with the love of self, which in reality makes our acts nothing more than "dung" in God's sight.

Pretty intense, huh?

Rob

[Robert]

I can promise you that without Jesus Christ, through the Spirit, everything she does...everything we do, in and of ourselves, is polluted with the love of self, which in reality makes our acts nothing more than "dung" in God's sight.

Am I the only one seeing this or I'm I crazy?

As far as my quote above, this (i think) can be seen in the following:

"If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love [agape], I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love [agape]." [1 Cor 13:3 -The Message]

[Robert]

I have a relative that's got some money. I visit with this person now and then. Why?

My flesh says, "so that he/she will remember you in his/her will." And so I fight this motive. When that thought comes I give it to God and then He takes care my nature. Otherwise all interaction with this family member is centered in "what's in it for me" - better known as self-interests.

I also know of a guy at work who took out a life insurance policy when he learned his father was dying. He pocket $100,000. Again, that's the American way - take advantage of that window of opportunity.

Now for a of mine: Trade!

For many (if not all... only God knows) Capitalistic folks here in the US, they see China in the middle of their industrial revolution. And so they think, "I could take advantage of this window of opportunity and close down jobs here in the US and use cheap Chinese labor."

How many companies are actually going to China to help the little guy, the common Chinese, make a better life for himself?

If you say "zero" then Capitalism belongs to the camp of Satan and Christians shouldn't have anything to do with it, technically speaking.

Now, I'm not for Communism or Socialism either....I'm for the kingdom of God.

This should be interesting,

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

The various kinds of love is an important subject. In Spanish the word "Amor" or "Amar" is used for intense human and divine love. Both the words "agape" and "phileo" are translated into this. However the word "querer" is also used to express the love of friendships. It means both "want" and "love". A man will say "Te Amo" to his wife or child and "Te quiero" to a close friend. If a person love a material item, like a car, the would say, "Me gusta el carro." or "The car pleases me." My point is that we need to understand the different uses of different words to grasp the meaning of what is being said or written. Thus looking at the different applications of "agape" and "phileo" is a productive exercise.

I attended a church once that would have agape feasts on New Year's Eve and a different church that would have agape feasts are marriage retreats. I think it is very productive to focus on what this love is. We are to both receive and give it which makes us a channel for agape love.

[Robert]

In Spanish the word "Amor" or "Amar" is used for intense human and divine love. Both the words "agape" and "phileo" are translated into this.

But God's love, agape, and human love, phileo, are diametrically opposed, right?

[phkrause]

Good post Rob. We usually don't do anything without a little self interest. And like you said without Christ its meaningless.

pk

[Gail]

So we see a lot written about the dilemma... what is the solution?

[Robert]

So we see a lot written about the dilemma... what is the solution?

Well the solution was to redeem mankind from under the law. Under law simply means "obey and live, disobey and die." Those who accept the righteousness of Christ "have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Rom 7:6

You see under law there's only death - there's fear - there's no assurance. Why? Because under law all self-seeking - all selfishness is sin and "the wages of sin is death." So we must rejoice that we have been delivered from under the law, although the law itself is good, it is holy.

What then do we do with self-seeking the essence of all sin (iniquity)? Here's what I would call practical Christianity:

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests [which, according to the law, is sin], but also to the interests of others." Phil 2:3,4

So there's grace....While we should not condone sin, we are nonetheless living a life that fails to measure up. Hence Romans 3:23.

That's how I see it.

Rob

[Woody]

Thanks Rob. Good post. And that is a clear way to see things. The hypocrisy to think that we can measure up to the law ... needs to be stopped. We need to put our hope in our Redeemer. He alone is the answer to the curse of the Law.

Once we do this .... we will much better reflect our Creator because of the love and assurance that we have IN Him.

[Robert]

TU

[LifeHiscost]

Again, "Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]....Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23]."

Rob

Jesus gave/gives "agape" love.

I do not believe Jesus gives commandments He finds impossible to fulfill in those He calls.

" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."John 13:34 NKJV

Is that a command not to be fulfilled until we enter the kingdom of heaven? Then why give it while we're still on this dark planet? If we don't feel we have received the ability to accomplish what He has commanded, maybe we need to start believing and claiming His promises!

"Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven."Matthew 18:19 NKJV

"For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened.

If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good and advantageous gifts to your children, how much more will your Father Who is in heaven [perfect as He is] give good and advantageous things to those who keep on asking Him! Matthew 7:8,11 AMP

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Again, "Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]....Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23]."

Rob

Jesus gave/gives "agape" love.

" A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."John 13:34 NKJV

I do not believe Jesus gives commandments impossible to be fulfilled in those He calls.

Regards!

Yes, but Jesus can't work in you without your full cooperation. That's where the problem lies.

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, but Jesus can't work in you without your full cooperation. That's where the problem lies.

As long as we trust the fulfillment of what can be accomplished by Him, which is an act of His creation in our lives, on our abilities(our cooperation) we shall not only not receive them in this life but there will be no future of fulfillment.

"..Be ye therefor perfect.."___an act of Jesus' creation.

"..be born again"___..be healed..___each, acts of creation that, especially evident in the miracle of being born again, which one, before a person is born, no act of personal effort is possible (cooperation) in order for the promise to be fulfilled.

Regards!

[Gerr]

Yes Rob. But some here object when I say that I will sin till the day I die. However it is the truth. Not that I want to. And not that God doesn't have the power to give me victory. But, I don't let Him IN.

My personal objection is when you say that we as believers willfully sin till the day we die. But when you qualify it with: "Not that I want to," then that is not willful/deliberate sin. Willful sin is something you WANT to do. You do it over and over because you WANT to. As long as we are in this mortal body, we ALL will be guilty of sins we do not want/plan or willfully do. THAT I do not have problem with.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Shane

In Spanish the word "Amor" or "Amar" is used for intense human and divine love. Both the words "agape" and "phileo" are translated into this.

But God's love, agape, and human love, phileo, are diametrically opposed, right?

Agape and phileo diametrically opposed? Read Jn 21, the conversation between Jesus and Peter.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Yes Rob. But some here object when I say that I will sin till the day I die. However it is the truth. Not that I want to. And not that God doesn't have the power to give me victory. But, I don't let Him IN.

My personal objection is when you say that we as believers willfully sin till the day we die. But when you qualify it with: "Not that I want to," then that is not willful/deliberate sin. Willful sin is something you WANT to do. You do it over and over because you WANT to. As long as we are in this mortal body, we ALL will be guilty of sins we do not want/plan or willfully do. THAT I do not have problem with.

Like I have said a thousand times ... All sin is willful for we have all the resources of heaven to help prevent us from sinning. As Ellen White says ... "there is no excuse to sin". We are not forced to sin. It is willful as much as we might desire not to ... we do get sucked in.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But God's love' date=' agape, and human love, phileo, are diametrically opposed, right? [/quote']

Agape and phileo diametrically opposed? Read Jn 21, the conversation between Jesus and Peter.

The answer is yes....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

My personal objection is when you say that we as believers willfully sin till the day we die. But when you qualify it with: "Not that I want to," then that is not willful/deliberate sin. Willful sin is something you WANT to do. You do it over and over because you WANT to. As long as we are in this mortal body, we ALL will be guilty of sins we do not want/plan or willfully do. THAT I do not have problem with.

[/quote']

Like I have said a thousand times ... All sin is willful for we have all the resources of heaven to help prevent us from sinning. As Ellen White says ... "there is no excuse to sin". We are not forced to sin. It is willful as much as we might desire not to ... we do get sucked in.

Is it that we do not have the faith to believe that God can give us victory over sin?

Rather than He will save us in our sin.

Ellen White made it clear that we the Law was not lowered to meet our sin, but that the divine nature was imparted to us so that we would have the same strength Jesus had when He overcame.

Jesus overcame in His human nature, by laying hold of the Divinity of God.

We can do the same.

We can have total victory over sin.

Because Jesus did.

Twilight

[Robert]

We can have total victory over sin.

The day I see no self-seeking in the life of the believer that day I will believe that he/she is without sin. I'm still looking....

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

Like I have said a thousand times ... All sin is willful for we have all the resources of heaven to help prevent us from sinning. As Ellen White says ... "there is no excuse to sin". We are not forced to sin. It is willful as much as we might desire not to ... we do get sucked in.

"If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."# Romans 7:16,19 KJV

Which 'would not' do you not understand?

"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."Acts 8:23 NASB

When one is in bondage they often do many things they would not do were they free to do what they could were they free.

"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin."Romans 7:14

NASB

Freedom comes as one gathers the Truth to themselves.

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:21 KJV

If we say we have no freedom to stop sinning, we say in affect, we are not children of God.

"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."John 8:32 NIV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am....the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 14:6 KJV

"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."John 8:36 NIV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The answer is yes....

Human love (heavenly eros or phileo) is changeable. This means it is a love that fluctuates and is unreliable. A good example is Peter. He promises Christ at the Passover feast: “I am ready to go with thee, both into prison and to death” [Luke 22:31-34]. Yet when the test came he failed miserably. In this respect it is worthy to note the dialogue between Jesus and Peter after the resurrection, as already mentioned above [John 21:15-17]. Twice Jesus asked Peter the question, “Lovest (agapao) thou me more than these?” and both times Peter responded, “Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love (phileo) thee” [verses 15-16]. The third time Jesus switched and said “lovest (phileo) thou me?”

It was not the same question with which Jesus confronted Peter the third time. It was as if He were saying, “Peter, is this the only kind of love (phileo, this unreliable human love) you have for me?” No wonder Peter was “grieved” by this last question. But he was now a truly converted man (in the sense that he had lost all confidence in himself, Philippians 3:3) and in humility he replied, “Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love (phileo) thee” [verse 17]. This is the only kind of love (phileo or eros) that human beings can generate in and of themselves. (Incidentally, the high divorce rate in the United States is primarily due to this fluctuating, unreliable human love, devoid of agape). [JS]

[Robert]

If we say we have no freedom to stop sinning, we say in affect, we are not children of God.

If we say we are free from all sin (which is true freedom), we are deceived. 1 John 1:8

[LifeHiscost]

Jesus overcame in His human nature, by laying hold of the Divinity of God.

We can do the same.

We can have total victory over sin.

Because Jesus did.

Twilight

Good post. However the possible is not present reality except as we are justified in Christ. The sanctity is at present not complete.

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."John 8:7 KJV

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."1 John 1:8 NIV

Regards!

[Robert]

HUMAN LOVE IS:

A. CONDITIONAL

Depends on beauty or goodness and therefore needs arousing. When this love is attributed to God it perverts the gospel into conditional good news or good advice: Matt. 19:16-27; John 9:14-31

B. CHANGEABLE

Fluctuates and is unreliable: Luke 22:31-34 (Divorce rate in U.S.)

C. SELF-SEEKING (U-turn agape)

Egocentric; therefore always ascending, socially, politically, academically, economically, and even religiously: Isa. 53:6; Phil. 2:21. (Satan is the originator of this self principle and infected man with it at the Fall.) Ezk. 28:14,15; Isa. 14:12-14 [JS]

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

If we say we have no freedom to stop sinning, we say in affect, we are not children of God.

If we say we are free from all sin (which is true freedom), we are deceived. 1 John 1:8

Good post. There are sins that once I practiced but Jesus has given me victory. However the victory still in process concerning others not fully accomplished, makes me guilty of all.

"For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it."James 2:10 AMP

There is a difference between being "guilty of all sins" or "practicing all sins" and being "guilty of sin".

Regards!