Why does the subject of "agape" generate so little interest?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If we say we are free from all sin (which is true freedom), we are deceived. 1 John 1:8 [/quote']

Good post. There are sins that once I practiced but Jesus has given me victory. However the victory still in process concerning others not fully accomplished, makes me guilty of all.

"For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it."James 2:10 AMP

Flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but your Father in heaven has.

[LifeHiscost]

"For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it."James 2:10 AMP

Flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but your Father in heaven has.

[Bravus]

Urrgh, this had the potential to be an interesting discussion but it's spiraled down into the same old circular mess.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

My personal objection is when you say that we as believers willfully sin till the day we die. But when you qualify it with: "Not that I want to," then that is not willful/deliberate sin. Willful sin is something you WANT to do. You do it over and over because you WANT to. As long as we are in this mortal body, we ALL will be guilty of sins we do not want/plan or willfully do. THAT I do not have problem with.

[/quote']

Like I have said a thousand times ... All sin is willful for we have all the resources of heaven to help prevent us from sinning. As Ellen White says ... "there is no excuse to sin". We are not forced to sin. It is willful as much as we might desire not to ... we do get sucked in.

But my friend Redwood...not all sin is willful...sometimes we sin before we "realize it" and not "intentionally. There is no excuse for the type of sin that is open rebellion but there are sins of "omission" and "accidental sins", then there is willful sin which is what I believe EGW as talking about...on purpose consistent, no remorse type of sins...open rebellion towards God. I do see a difference in the "types of sin". I think you and I and everyone else sin at times without having any "clue" till afterwards and then we suddenly realize "oops how did that happen" and we confess. That is opposed to "willful sin" which says, 'I am incharge and I will do what I want to do". True we all sin that way as well but as we give our lives over to Jesus, hopefully that "outright rebellion" becomes less and less as we love Jesus and want to follow him, just out of love. Does that make sense?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Like I have said a thousand times ... All sin is willful for we have all the resources of heaven to help prevent us from sinning. As Ellen White says ... "there is no excuse to sin". We are not forced to sin. It is willful as much as we might desire not to ... we do get sucked in. [/quote']

But my friend Redwood...not all sin is willful...sometimes we sin before we "realize it" and not "intentionally. There is no excuse for the type of sin that is open rebellion but there are sins of "omission" and "accidental sins", then there is willful sin which is what I believe EGW as talking about...on purpose consistent, no remorse type of sins...open rebellion towards God. I do see a difference in the "types of sin". I think you and I and everyone else sin at times without having any "clue" till afterwards and then we suddenly realize "oops how did that happen" and we confess. That is opposed to "willful sin" which says, 'I am incharge and I will do what I want to do". True we all sin that way as well but as we give our lives over to Jesus, hopefully that "outright rebellion" becomes less and less as we love Jesus and want to follow him, just out of love. Does that make sense?

I hate to ever disagree with Taylor. This is difficult. But I must here. I believe that ALL knowledge is available to us to both have knowledge of what is sin ... and the power to resist it. The problem is that we do not avail ourselves of that power. That is what is willful.

Quote:

" It is not in the power of all the host of Satan to force the tempted to transgress. There is no excuse for sin." Mar 82

"When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy. Had man, when tested and tried, followed the example of Christ, he would have given his children and his children's children an example of steadfast purity and righteousness, and the race would not have deteriorated, but improved. . . . " TDG 318

Therefore ... all sin is willful because we have not accepted the knowledge and power that is available to us. We have made that choice. Not God.

[John317]

Therefore ... all sin is willful because we have not accepted the knowledge and power that is available to us. We have made that choice. Not God.

This is a good example of the necessity of reading everything the Bible and Ellen White have to say about this. When we do, we find that there are clear distinctions made in both sources between "willful" sin and sin that is not willful.

You have said that you sometimes don't want to sin. The mere fact that you sin when you don't want to means that it is not a willful sin. A willful sin is one done intentionally and deliberately, even stubbornly and with determination and planning. Surely you are not saying that all sin is done with determination, stubbornness and planning, are you?

It should be obvious, then, that not all sin is of the kind defined in the following way:

willful

adjective

(of an immoral or illegal act or omission) intentional; deliberate : willful acts of damage.

• having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects : the pettish, willful side of him.

By your definition all crime could be labeled as "willful," but that wouldn't make sense nor would it be fair or an accurate description. Every court in the world recognizes the difference between willful crime and accidental or unintentional crime. God Word also recognizes the difference.

[Woody]

This is an example of creeping compromise. We think that we can excuse our sins because they were not 'willful'.

I don't buy it. We have all the power of heaven to know about and to stop sin. We decide not to accept the knowledge and power. That is our decision. That is willful. The Holy Spirit is convicting. We are rejecting.

There simply is no excuse to sin. When we do ... we need forgiveness and someone to 'cover' those sins. We have not measured up to the law whether by neglect or on purpose. Either way ... you do not measure up to the law.

When Jesus was on this earth ... He didn't use the kinds of excuses that I hear from some on this thread. He didn't claim ... "Oh well I didn't know" or "I didn't do it on purpose" ... That's almost laughable it is so ridiculous.

[LifeHiscost]

When Jesus was on this earth ... He didn't use the kinds of excuses that I hear from some on this thread. He didn't claim ... "Oh well I didn't know" or "I didn't do it on purpose" ... That's almost laughable it is so ridiculous.

I would encourage you visit those addicted to methamphetamines and remain with them for seven days, if it takes that long for you to draw the conclusion there is no one who does less than willful sinful behavior and is in uncontrollable bondage.

This is who your comments remind me.

"They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

" John 8:33 NKJV

And the subsequent attitude is clearly defined by Jesus.

"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."John 9:40,41 KJV

Regards!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

We can have total victory over sin.

The day I see no self-seeking in the life of the believer that day I will believe that he/she is without sin. I'm still looking....

Rob

A million souls approached the borders of the Promised Land.

God said "Go up and possess it."

Only two believed.

The rest died in the wilderness and never received the promise because of unbelief.

Are we one of the two or the million?

Twilight

[Robert]

Urrgh, this had the potential to be an interesting discussion but it's spiraled down into the same old circular mess.

Bravus is right...let's get back on topic!

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

Like I have said a thousand times ... All sin is willful for we have all the resources of heaven to help prevent us from sinning. As Ellen White says ... "there is no excuse to sin". We are not forced to sin. It is willful as much as we might desire not to ... we do get sucked in. [/quote']

But my friend Redwood...not all sin is willful...sometimes we sin before we "realize it" and not "intentionally. There is no excuse for the type of sin that is open rebellion but there are sins of "omission" and "accidental sins", then there is willful sin which is what I believe EGW as talking about...on purpose consistent, no remorse type of sins...open rebellion towards God. I do see a difference in the "types of sin". I think you and I and everyone else sin at times without having any "clue" till afterwards and then we suddenly realize "oops how did that happen" and we confess. That is opposed to "willful sin" which says, 'I am incharge and I will do what I want to do". True we all sin that way as well but as we give our lives over to Jesus, hopefully that "outright rebellion" becomes less and less as we love Jesus and want to follow him, just out of love. Does that make sense?

I hate to ever disagree with Taylor. This is difficult. But I must here. I believe that ALL knowledge is available to us to both have knowledge of what is sin ... and the power to resist it. The problem is that we do not avail ourselves of that power. That is what is willful.

Quote:

" It is not in the power of all the host of Satan to force the tempted to transgress. There is no excuse for sin." Mar 82

"When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy. Had man, when tested and tried, followed the example of Christ, he would have given his children and his children's children an example of steadfast purity and righteousness, and the race would not have deteriorated, but improved. . . . " TDG 318

Therefore ... all sin is willful because we have not accepted the knowledge and power that is available to us. We have made that choice. Not God.

Taylor says: I think you have a point Redwood. I do think we do not accept the power available to us and if we listened more to the "still small voice" in our hearts, that comes from God, we would make far different choices. I just know that I have personally experienced "rebellious sin" i.e....doing something on purpose and knowingly, and I have also been "surprised by sin" i.e. I fell into something that I had no intention to "rebell" just made an honest mistake or something and suddenly I found myself in a pickle which I wished I wasn't in. I do think the first comes from a heart of rebellion while the other may be because I didn't "listen to God" enough on the matter or I would have not "fallen into the trap" so to speak. Does that make sense?

I think that some may be trying to say here is that before Jesus comes back our hearts will be so given to God that we will not be in outright rebellion towards Him. And I think what you are saying is that we will "continue sinning" because we are human and if we don't listen perfectly to God's voice in our hearts, we will sin even if not "out of rebellion".

(And you can disagree with me any time, it is ok. But do my above comments make sense to you?)

[Woody]

How cool. As usual ... you seem to understand both sides so well ... even better than we understand ourselves.

But a big YES. That is a clear understanding of what I am saying. You win the prize for you are the first one to understand. I suppose it is my fault in not finding the right words to express it. But you did so I thank you.

[Taylor]

:)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Urrgh, this had the potential to be an interesting discussion but it's spiraled down into the same old circular mess.

Bravus is right...let's get back on topic!

Bravus...go for it! Expound upon agape, please.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The answer is yes....

"Let brotherly love [philadelphia] continue," Heb 13:1 ESV

[Robert]

1 Let love [agape] of the brethren continue. 2 Forget not to show love unto strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; them that are illtreated, as being yourselves also in the body. 4 [Let] marriage [be] had in honor among all, and [let] the bed [be] undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge. 5 Be ye free from the love of money; content with such things as ye have: for himself hath said, I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee.

[Gerr]

1 Let love [agape] of the brethren continue. 2 Forget not to show love unto strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; them that are illtreated, as being yourselves also in the body. 4 [Let] marriage [be] had in honor among all, and [let] the bed [be] undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge. 5 Be ye free from the love of money; content with such things as ye have: for himself hath said, I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee.

If we are counseled by Scripture to continue philadelphia and agape kind of love, then they can't be diametrically opposed, would they?

If I recall correctly, one of the 2 churches in Rev 2 & 3 of whom Jesus had nothing to criticize was the church of Philadelphia - church of brotherly love.

[Robert]

If I recall correctly, one of the 2 churches in Rev 2 & 3 of whom Jesus had nothing to criticize was the church of Philadelphia - church of brotherly love.

Everything outside agape is sinful. That's why the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If I recall correctly, one of the 2 churches in Rev 2 & 3 of whom Jesus had nothing to criticize was the church of Philadelphia - church of brotherly love.

Everything outside agape is sinful. That's why the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

If philadelphia kind of love is sinful, how then could Paul say, "let brotherly love [philaphelphia] continue?" Was he advocating to practice something sinful? Impossible!!!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Everything outside agape is sinful. That's why the Bible states, "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

If philadelphia kind of love is sinful, how then could Paul say, "let brotherly love [philaphelphia] continue?" Was he advocating to practice something sinful? Impossible!!!

"Agape fulfills the law" not this "brotherly love" or whatever you wish to call it! Proof: Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them [sinners love their own, i.e., those who love them back]. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love [agape] your enemies, do good to them, [how?] and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

Human love...love for a brother...a sister, i.e., your own; a friend, etc.. isn't heavenly love. You love your own, but its a self-centered love - i.e., it's based in the love of self. All such love is sin because it lacks "agape"! If not then you can claim that you have something good in you, but Paul claims - "I know that in me, dwells nothing good".

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If philadelphia kind of love is sinful, how then could Paul say, "let brotherly love [philaphelphia] continue?" Was he advocating to practice something sinful? Impossible!!!

"Agape fulfills the law" not this "brotherly love" or whatever you wish to call it! Proof: Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them [sinners love their own, i.e., those who love them back]. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love [agape] your enemies, do good to them, [how?] and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

Human love...love for a brother...a sister, i.e., your own; a friend, etc.. isn't heavenly love. You love your own, but its a self-centered love - i.e., it's based in the love of self. All such love is sin because it lacks "agape"! If not then you can claim that you have something good in you, but Paul claims - "I know that in me, dwells nothing good".

"Let brotherly love continue." Heb 13:1.

And I will also add, let erotic love between husband and wife continue.

Both are gifts from above, and in their purest form, can't be sinful.

[Robert]

"Let brotherly love continue." Heb 13:1.

And I will also add, let erotic love between husband and wife continue.

Both are gifts from above, and in their purest form, can't be sinful.

Show me where human love (erotic and brotherly love) comes from God! I can show that agape is from God, but I can't with human love.

Humans are born void of agape because of the fall. Everything we do from the womb is out of selfishness. We are born in iniquity - i.e., we are born bent to self. Only when the Holy Spirit enters our spirit do we start experiencing genuine agape love, but it doesn't come from us. As I said the only thing we can produce is self-love (selfishness)...

[Robert]

Humans are born void of agape because of the fall. Everything we do from the womb is out of selfishness. We are born in iniquity - i.e., we are born bent to self.

Gen 2:27 "God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

What does it mean by the "image of God"? It means that both Adam & Eve perfectly reflected the agape love of God. Since there's no self in agape our original parents were without any bent-to-self (iniquity).

Now what happened after the fall?

Gen 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image."

Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God. They had no children before the fall. After the fall Adam had a son in his his own likeness. He had a son born bent-to-self. That's why David could say, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

And here's EGW for you:

"Through sin [iniquity] the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil." [MAR 91]

Again:

"Man [humanity] was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience, his powers were perverted, and selfishness took the place of love [agape]. His nature became so weakened through transgression that it was impossible for him, in his own strength, to resist the power of evil [his bent-to-self]." SC 17

Please note she states, "selfishness took the place of (agape)". Iniquity displaced agape. We are born completely void of agape love. There's none, zero! Hence all forms of human love - Storge, Phileo, and Eros are based in our bent-to-self and therefore all forms of human love are polluted with self-interest, self-seeking and self-love. In a nutshell we are a mess and outside Christ we don't stand a change.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"Let brotherly love continue." Heb 13:1.

And I will also add, let erotic love between husband and wife continue.

Both are gifts from above, and in their purest form, can't be sinful.

Show me where human love (erotic and brotherly love) comes from God! I can show that agape is from God, but I can't with human love.

Humans are born void of agape because of the fall. Everything we do from the womb is out of selfishness. We are born in iniquity - i.e., we are born bent to self. Only when the Holy Spirit enters our spirit do we start experiencing genuine agape love, but it doesn't come from us. As I said the only thing we can produce is self-love (selfishness)...

"28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth," Gen 1:28 ESV

" Adam had sexual relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Eve said, “With the Lord’s help, I have given birth to a man.” Gen 4:1 NCV

[Robert]

"And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth," Gen 1:28 ESV