Suspend or not?

[phkrause]

I can relate with what you wrote, but that goes for all of us. Most of us had no idea why we got baptized. As we grow older and study for ourselves we either grow with Jesus or we slowly grow away. But its always there in the back of our minds. Many have returned to the Lord after doing whatever for many years. Some stay in the church and slowly grow into the christians that our parents hoped we would be or eventually leave. But God sees into our hearts, and not what others see from the outside.

pk

[Narcah]

I think it would be devestating to that young mans future if the school "went out of their way" for him. Don't we already have a "ME!" generation that believe they should do whatever they want when they want how they want with no consequences?

Bravo to the school for making him a man of his word. Shame on his parents for encouraging him to break his word. Shame on society for letting him have a g/f @ 17 years old that would put him in such an awkard situation.

*off soapbox now*

[Outta Here]

dgrimm60, I'm not sure which schools you are referring to. My daughter's school is a private, religious school; anyone who's not a student at her school, but who'd like to attend her school's prom must have these additional permissions.

[Outta Here]

:)

[carolaa]

I think it would be devestating to that young mans future if the school "went out of their way" for him. Don't we already have a "ME!" generation that believe they should do whatever they want when they want how they want with no consequences?

Bravo to the school for making him a man of his word. Shame on his parents for encouraging him to break his word. Shame on society for letting him have a g/f @ 17 years old that would put him in such an awkard situation.

*off soapbox now*

If I live in this country, then I agree to abide by its rules, too. But then there's a thing called civil disobedience where you object to certain rules and try to get the rules changed to make more sense. Usually, there are consequences for civil disobedience, but I wouldn't put it in the category of not keeping one's word.

[GreatLakesGramma]

There's quite a bit of difference between civil disobedience to laws that apply to everyone because of where they live, and the rules and standards of a private institution. A private school has a right to set the standards by which it will operate, and to require compliance with those rules by those who attend there. Enrollment is voluntary, and if that boy and his family didn't agree with the rules, he did not have to attend there. If he didn't agree to that rule, he should not have signed the statement of cooperation agreeing to abide by it.

For the school to bend the rules for this boy would send a message to all the students that they can do what they want and there will be no consequences. Not to mention, it would be a slap in the face of all who have complied with the rules they agreed to when they enrolled.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

he signed some paper about that.

Old covenant....While I'm not crazy about dancing and such, folks need to the right thing for the right motive. If not, it's all a bunch of legalistic nonsense....

And is that your legal opinion or your illegal advice.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, agreed, but....I can guarantee you that if I would have been the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath, I would have recanted my OC signature and would have opted for grace.

Grace is given to the person who is repentant, without faultfinding. The person who doesn't believe they have done anything to need grace sees no reason or need to receive grace, therefore they remain in their sin, the cleansing blood of Jesus given only to those who admit their need.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Like I said, this is OC. Sign here and promise to be good and in return you many stay in our Holy Joe school!

The boy, or parents, have the freedom to negate their previous decisions as they choose. God Himself gives them that right of free will. However, under the new covenant there will be heavenly protocol that will determine eternal destiny.

And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Rev 22:10-12 NKJV

Regards!

[Outta Here]

There's quite a bit of difference between civil disobedience to laws that apply to everyone because of where they live, and the rules and standards of a private institution. A private school has a right to set the standards by which it will operate, and to require compliance with those rules by those who attend there. Enrollment is voluntary, and if that boy and his family didn't agree with the rules, he did not have to attend there. If he didn't agree to that rule, he should not have signed the statement of cooperation agreeing to abide by it.

For the school to bend the rules for this boy would send a message to all the students that they can do what they want and there will be no consequences. Not to mention, it would be a slap in the face of all who have complied with the rules they agreed to when they enrolled.

GLG is spot on! I agree with this completely!

[bonnie]

When agreeing to the rules of the learning institution you CHOOSE to use

is seen as legalism,you need to seek out another learning institution.

Go somewhere that abiding by the rules is oprional and only meant as a suggestion

[Robert]

Did they give their word?

People change...they mature...they see the legalism in covenants (what EGW calls "ropes of sand) and they want out.

Which is worse,

1] Self-righteousness

or

2] Breaking an old covenant document?

Answer: 1

I'll go on step further. Why were the Jews of Christ time lost? Again, # 1.

They stayed with their old covenant until the day they died. They were Holy Joes.

Human covenants, such as you can't dance or date someone from another school or else, are at best legalistic. That'd why Christ said, to the self-righteous Jews,

""Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but are within full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness. Even so, ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

So doing the right thing (if dancing & kissing are sins) for the wrong reason or motive is in heaven's eyes old covenant. It's hypocritical because even though outwardly your doing the right thing, inside "you are full of iniquity". What does that mean? It means all you do outwardly is to be seen of men....It's that bent-to-self thingy...it's that self-righteous thingy.

So I say to heck with this covenant. I say leave the blooming legalists and their school. He would better off with sinners than hanging around the self-righteous.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Old covenant....While I'm not crazy about dancing and such' date=' folks need to the right thing for the right motive. If not, it's all a bunch of legalistic nonsense....

[/quote']

And is that your legal opinion or your illegal advice.

Regards!

Drop the oc requirement and realize what it is - "ropes of sand". IT's nothing more than OC pledges: "God I'll be good and return I get this or that."

We teach our kids to be legalists. Instead teach them about agape...teach them about the love of God. That's the ticket and then let them be drawn to God....

That's why under the NEW covenant we don't come to God through law. We aren't under law....As we come to know God and His agape love, then a genuine change will be seen. Take care of the inside and sooner or later the outside will look like the inside. But we parents like to dress up the outside. Like Jack Sequeira says, "Mankind is legalistic by nature." It comes very natural....

Rob

[Robert]

under the new covenant there will be heavenly protocol that will determine eternal destiny.

He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

In Christ we are just, we are righteous, we are holy....Outside Christ we are unjust, we are unrighteous, we are filthy. The protocol is based not on your performance, but on Christ's doing....

[bonnie]

Quote:

People change...they mature...they see the legalism in covenants (what EGW calls "ropes of sand) and they want out.

Then his problem is solved. He has matured beyond keeping his word to the school and should exercise his rights. That includes accepting the consequences as well

Quote:

Which is worse,

1] Self-righteousness

or

2] Breaking an old covenant document?

Answer: 1

I'll go on step further. Why were the Jews of Christ time lost? Again, # 1.

This has nothing to do with it. What you see as breaking an old covenant document is to the denomination and school doing God's will.

The parents and student did not sign a contract binding only till their son matured and saw things differently

Quote:

So doing the right thing (if dancing & kissing are sins) for the wrong reason or motive is in heaven's eyes old covenant. It's hypocritical because even though outwardly your doing the right thing, inside "you are full of iniquity". What does that mean? It means all you do outwardly is to be seen of men....It's that bent-to-self ]thingy...it's that self-righteous thingy.

You are straying way of course with this. The right thing is to keep your word,not run around telling those you gave your word to how hypocritical they are.

When we enrolled our sons at academy,we agree to certain things. Activities not allowed,consequences for not following rules. That was our choice and that of our sons after the first six weeks of school. We made an agreement with the boys that they give it their all the first six weeks and if they could not handle being away from home or abide by the rules,we would make other decisions.

They knew when they told us they didn't want to leave,they had given their word to us and the school to abide by the rules.

While you may consider teaching your children to keep their word is legalistic,I have another name for it. Honesty and integrity

Quote:

So I say to heck with this covenant. I say leave the blooming legalists and their school. He would better off with sinners than hanging around the self-righteous.

That is what he should do instead of the media hype about this poor student that no longer wants to keep his word and parents that back him.

[bonnie]

If my husband and I failed to teach our sons the importance of keeping their word,the rest of what we tried to teach them is

moot. Then we really have taught them very little

Their responsibility did not change. If they felt they could no longer keep their word,they needed to be adult enough to go to the other party and say so. Then they needed to be adult enough to accept consequences for their change of heart

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Rob

Which is worse,

1] Self-righteousness

or

2] Breaking an old covenant document?

Answer: 1

This has nothing to do with it. What you see as breaking an old covenant document is to the denomination and school doing God's will.

The parents and student did not sign a contract binding only till their son matured and saw things differently

I don't care and neither does God. God would rather us be living for the flesh because that way He can at least reach us then to be in a state of self-righteousness.

Here's a good example:

I know your works (why you do what you do) and that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. [Rev 3:15,16]

God would rather us be either doing the right thing for the right reason or be totally living for the flesh. Why? Because if you're living for the flesh at least God can reach you, but the self-righteous (those doing the right thing outwardly, but for self-centered reasons, i.e., the lukewarm) He cannot reach.

As I said teaching a kid to remain true to an OC document isn't admirable. To men, yes...to God, no!

Rob

[Robert]

As I said teaching a kid to remain true to an OC document isn't admirable. To men, yes...to God, no!

Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles [who the Jews called "dogs" - sinners], who did not pursue the law, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

The Jews, even to this very day, are keeping their agreement to the OC. That covenant is the promise of the people to be good (keep the rules) and in return they get heaven (get to stay in school). And they are as lost as a man without compass at sea. They have no hope but to scrap that old covenant document and believe in God's promises....

Rob

[Robert]

If my husband and I failed to teach our sons the importance of keeping their word, the rest of what we tried to teach them is moot.

I don't care, sometimes it's much better to change then to remain under old covenant principles. It's much better for parents to lose face now then to lose their sons & daughters to a life of pride and self-righteousness.

You know, it's funny, we tell "Johnny" to be good, but the truth is Johnny is selfish by nature...he can't be good. And so we dress the outside up...we force Johnny to look good on the outside. We use fear and bribery such as "Jesus won't love you if you do such and such" or "if you do this I'll get you such and such." So we teach our kids to dress up the outside while inside everything they do is either for a reward (a selfish motivation) or out of fear.

Do you know what EGW has to say about this?

"Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy ....." [PP 523]

So it's more offensive to God for one to play the hypocrite then to fully apostatize.

Rob

[bonnie]

Quote:

I don't care, sometimes it's much better to change then to remain under old covenant principles. It's much better for parents to lose face now then to lose their sons & daughters to a life of pride and self-righteousness.

It has nothing to do with losing face. It has all to do with keeping your word. If you find you can no longer do that accept the consequences and move on.

No one is forcing him to comply.

Quote:

You know, it's funny, we tell "Johnny" to be good, but the truth is Johnny is selfish by nature...he can't be good. And so we dress the outside up...we force Johnny to look good on the outside. We use fear and bribery such as "Jesus won't love you if you do such and such" or "if you do this I'll get you such and such." So we teach our kids to dress up the outside while inside everything they do is either for a reward (a selfish motivation) or out of fear.

Whether someone is selfish or not he still is capable of keeping his word.

Maybe this is way you would have raised a child...if you do this I'll get you such and such." So we teach our kids to dress up the ..

It is not theway most people that care for their children would teach them

Quote:

Do you know what EGW has to say about this?

I know what the bible teaches concerning responsibility and honesty. I don't care how you or anyone makes that a test of legalism.

Our sons were taught to keep their word in all things where it were possible.

Quote:

"Love to God is the very foundation of religion. To engage in His service merely from hope of reward or fear of punishment would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy ....." [PP 523]

So it's more offensive to God for one to play the hypocrite then to fully apostatize.

Rob

What you fail to take into account is there are actually people that think keeping ones word and abiding by a contract you signed as a good thing.Not as in reward or punishment but because it is the honest and right thing to do.Not as a little step up the ladder toward's heaven. Nor has God given you the ability or the right to question the motives.

If someone can no longer do that then they need to withdraw and accept the terms.

It isn't hypocrital legalism to keep your word.

[bonnie]

There are those that are so wrapped up in making everything someone else does legalism and trying to prove by their actions they are not. It is nothing but a reverse legalism and trying to work your way to heaven by kicking over all the traces and doing precisely as you want in avoiding legalism.

If you cannot be trusted you have little to offer anyone,in business,friendship or religion.

Nor would I have ever wanted someone that thought so little of his word or a contract he signed in anyway having influence over my sons.

You can keep turning over every rock to see if you can spot legalism. For me I am thankful for the men our sons turned out to be. Knowing the importance of honesty and keeping their word,no matter what the circumstances or,

Telling those involved they can no longer do so and accepting the results

[LifeHiscost]

When agreeing to the rules of the learning institution you CHOOSE to use

is seen as legalism,you need to seek out another learning institution.

Go somewhere that abiding by the rules is oprional and only meant as a suggestion

Sounds like great advice to me, but there are many that want it their way without consideration for the trouble with which they put others.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

The protocol is based not on your performance, but on Christ's doing....

Exactly! And if He isn't doing anything in a person's (my) life then what's left meets the end judgment of the unjust.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."Ephesians 2:10 KJV

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."Ephesians 2:10 NIV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The protocol is based not on your performance, but on Christ's doing....

Exactly! And if He isn't doing anything in a person's (my) life then what's left meets the end judgment of the unjust.

I'm sorry you misunderstood me.....What counts in the judgment is the imputed righteousness of Christ. His imparted righteousness does not save rather it is demonstrative. His imputed righteousness is meritorious.

Rob

[Robert]

Nor has God given you the ability or the right to question the motives.