Suspend or not?

[Robert]

There are those that are so wrapped up in making everything someone else does legalism and trying to prove by their actions they are not.

NEWSFLASH: When you sign an agreement that you can't kiss a girl, dance or listen to rock 'n roll, not only do you need your head examined, but the morons that came up with legalistic stuff needs theirs examined too.

Bonnie, why do you think Christ came to deliver us from under the law? Is the law bad? No, but because we are sinners...because we are born bent-to-self, everything good we do is polluted with selfish motives outside a very mature relationship with Christ. Those who can't see this are very blind and delusional. So if you want to talk about honesty, let's be honest with God - we need His robe of righteousness because, friend, we aren't measuring up to His selfless agape. That's honesty and not this signing of legalistic covenants.

Anyway, like I said, if the school wants to take a self-righteous stand on this fine....The young man would be better off somewhere else.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

But if that's the contract that you agreed to when you signed on the dotted line, then you had best be willing to abide by the rules. IMHO

[Robert]

But if that's the contract that you agreed to when you signed on the dotted line, then you had best be willing to abide by the rules. IMHO

Everyone, when they initially come to God, makes all sorts of promises: "God I'll stop doing this sin and that sin."...And then we find out it's not that easy. What's the problem? We have entered the old covenant with God. We've promised to be good so we can go to heaven.

Well, I found out better and I changed my mind. This kid needs to do the same, because unlike this retarded school, God won't mind at all if he changes from the OC to the NC.

[Robert]

I too was a legalist at one time. My boys went to an SDA church school. They had a rule that no one could wear any jewelry because it was sin. And so one day I got called in because one of my boys had small gold chain under his shirt. You'd really have to look for it pretty hard and they did.

Anyway, I sided with teachers....This act, among others, started a train of events that eventually got my son in trouble. Why? He didn't see Christ...He saw a bunch of Holy Joes playing the hypocrite! Funny thing is those teachers were wearing wedding bands and/or broaches, but of course that's not jewelry, says the Holy Joes....You see it's BS like that turns our kids away Christ....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

how did we get into the OC vs NC in this thread?? I thought it had to do with whether or not a student needed to abide by the rules he agreed to when he signed to go to a particular school...

So what if the rules are crazy? He agreed to them. He should abide by them or face the consequences. IMHO

[Gail]

For the duration of his stay at the school, anyway.

[Outta Here]

The student and his parents signed a contract agreeing to certain behaviors as a provision for attending the school, for using their services and for obtaining a high school education. The standards they have set are neither "moronic" nor "retarded". In fact, many of the standards are the very same standards we as Adventists try to instill in our children.

The Pathfinder Pledge and Law, for example, states:

By the grace of God,

I will be pure, kind, and true.

I will keep the Pathfinder Law.

I will be a servant of God,

and a friend to man.

The Pathfinder Law is for me to:

Keep the morning watch,

Do my honest part,

Care for my body,

Keep a level eye,

Be courteous and obedient,

Walk softly in the sanctuary,

Keep a song in my heart,

And go on God's errands.

While the club directors do not typically keep a scrutinous eye on the behaviors of our pathfinders, we do encourage them to live up to these standards. There are times when their behavior crosses a line and suspension and sometimes ejection from the club are necessary.

[phkrause]

But robert where not coming to God here. This has nothing to do with NC or OC! Its a simple thing of following a rule that you have agreed to follow. This might not be a perfect a example but here it goes anyway. If I come to an intersection and the light is red, I need to stop, otherwise the police can give me a ticket for not following the rules. Because I've agreed to follow the rules of the road when I got my drivers license. Now again I agree with you that the rule is crazy but this person and obviously all the other students have agreed to this. They need to abide by the rule. And the parents need to side with the school. If they thought the rule was bogus than they should have told there son not to sign this agreement, period.

pk

[Robert]

how did we get into the OC vs NC in this thread??

[Robert]

The standards they have set are neither "moronic" nor "retarded".

Sure they are....They're centered in pride....Abraham came to God by faith, not a bunch of rules. Rules don't change folks, God does....In fact Paul said, "If righteousness comes by the law then Christ died in vain." We need to direct kids to Christ and His selfless agape love. Eventually they'll see a difference between human love and God's love. That's when they'll turn to God. Rules will make them run from God....

[Robert]

This has nothing to do with NC or OC! Its a simple thing of following a rule that you have agreed to follow.

I totally disagree....These folks have decided that kissing & dancing are sins. Okay, let's say they are, self-seeking and self-love is too, but I don't see rules against that or everyone would be kicked out of school even the teachers.

Besides he was outside the school when he did this. He is off the school grounds.

[Robert]

If I come to an intersection and the light is red, I need to stop, otherwise the police can give me a ticket for not following the rules.

These are civil rules....The school is making moral rules and punishing those who disagree. Well, I'd like to be judge for a day too and I'd point the school's administrators to Christ's selfless life. Then I'd kick the teachers out of school for failing to live his life. Two can play the game....

[bonnie]

Quote:

I can tell you this, Bonnie, without a very mature relationship with Christ everything that we do is for selfishness motives*...who are you kidding? Maturity usually comes with age and kids haven't had the time to develop that type of relationship.

Children can learn very early in life about keeping their word. One responsibility parents have is to teach and guide them till they do reach maturity.

Quote:

*We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28][/size

.

This has nothing to do with flattering ourselves. Only in your mind is there this obsessive need to make everything about legalism.

Seems to me there is a little something about "training a child in the way he should go" in the bible.

I will leave you to your obsessive need to make everyone a legalist and to instruct others that desire to see honesty and integrity in their children how not to flatter themselves.

Guess I prefer to stay in the mind set of being thankful that our sons can be depended on to keep their word.

Along with the fact that God gave me certain responsibilities as a mother that you cannot reduce to legalism.

You may see what I do as legalism,that is fine. I see what you do and say as a desperate act to convince yourself and everyone else how right you are and that nothing is required of us in this life. Salvation by Robert is no better than salvation by works

Quote:

Yes, if it was based in OC principles and you later realize this, yes it's very wrong to keep your word. God's grace overrules the school and its silly legalism. And promising to be good is old covenant!!!

God's grace is not in question,except by you. Keeping your word or being ready to deal with the results of not doing so are lessons children need to learn.While on this earth they should be be of the character that reflects their beliefs. On a earthly level I am thankful that my sons are trusted to keep their word.

They do not need to learn what a sin it is to abide by a signed statement.

It seems to make you feel better or at least morally superior to believe you may do as you wish.Condemning all others for not having the same obsession you appear to have.

Hope you have found happiness in that. I will continue to be thankful that my sons do know the importance of keeping their word. Whether in this life as business men or their eternal life

[Robert]

Children can learn very early in life about keeping their word. One responsibility parents have is to teach and guide them till they do reach maturity.

[Amelia]

*TO

I would like to back up a bit.

The young man said he had to get permission from his principal to attend his girlfriends prom.

Quote:

Frost said he thought he had handled the situation properly. Findlay requires students from other schools attending the prom to get a signature from their principal, which Frost did.

"I expected a short lecture about making the right decisions and not doing something stupid," Frost said. "I thought I would get his signature and that would be the end."

England acknowledged signing the form but warned Frost there would be consequences if he attended the dance.

So the principal signs the form allowing Frost to attend the prom. Says there will be consequences but does not tell Frost what that will be. The principal should not have signed the form for Frost in the first place. And he should have said right then and there what would happend to Frost if he did attend the prom. This was a breakdown of communication.

I would like to see this contract that had to be signed. From just the little bit of infornation is sounds like it just states what the student will be expected not to do. Dance, kiss, hold hands and not listen to rock music. But does it also state that these activities are not to be conducted off school grounds also? Can a school (public or private)legally control the behavior of students off school grounds? And does this contract state what the punishments will be for breaking the contract? 1st offense, 2nd offense etc? Then too, what is the age of consent for this state. Many states won't allow contracts to be made with children under age. Only the parents can make the contract. Then it is up to the parent to make sure the child follows the rules.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I'm sorry, I thought the Bible said "without Me you can do nothing"? Righteousness doesn't come from parents...it comes by a deep relationship with Christ. All other works are indeed legalistic, self-righteous and man made.

I said nothing about righteousness coming from parents. I do believe parents have a responsibility and role to play in their children growing up to love God. You don't seem to and it isn't worth a fight.

Teaching our children was not seen as a work to get us to heaven. We taught them because we loved them.

Quote:

"When the light from Christ [and understanding of His selfless love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life.

Apparently there's a lot of blind children because of blind parents, huh?

Robert,you have no right to judge another or their children. You are the blind one. So obsessed with legalism you are about the most "legalistic" person in your own right I have run across.

Quote:

Really? If their motive is wrong it's like they never kept their word. Just FYI....

Just for your information this discussion assumes any that disagrees with you is a legalist.

I can only go by what I know of my sons personally,you have nothing but an obsessive view to go by.

We gave them the best foundation we knew how to give them. Both to deal with this life and their eternal life.

When we had raised them and they left home it then was between God and our sons.

Quote:

I know a legalist when I read one....

No, you only know that your obsessive view is not shared.

Quote:

Like I said, I know a legalist when I read one....If you make one rule a condition for life, you must make then all conditional. That's because James says if you keep them all, but fail in one point, you've broken all of them.

So because my sons have sinned you feel they should not be taught to be men of their word?There was little point then to teaching them anything.

We will just have to disagree. I am thankful that my boys are men of their word. I am thankful for many decisions they have made. Number one is that they are christian men.

Quote:

If that signed statement is legalistic and anti-gospel, then then should not only rejected it...they should burn it!

It is not up to you to determine that. Legalism is not defined by you for all. The student should have the maturity to stand by his word or live with the results of not doing so. If it is legalistic now it was when his parents signed it. Shame on them

The parents should be encouraging him in that instead of blaming the school

Quote:

I'm sorry, I'm not the self-righteous one here....Ruining this boy's life because perhaps he sees legalism for what it is: cold, unloving and hypocritical.

A prom should not have the ability to ruin or make a sucess out of this boys life. If he is that immature perhaps he needs a few of lifes hard lessons.We all have to learn them.

And I disagree,you seem to have this self-righteous,better than you attitude.

[bonnie]

*TO

I would like to back up a bit.

The young man said he had to get permission from his principal to attend his girlfriends prom.

Quote:

Frost said he thought he had handled the situation properly. Findlay requires students from other schools attending the prom to get a signature from their principal, which Frost did.

"I expected a short lecture about making the right decisions and not doing something stupid," Frost said. "I thought I would get his signature and that would be the end."

England acknowledged signing the form but warned Frost there would be consequences if he attended the dance.

So the principal signs the form allowing Frost to attend the prom. Says there will be consequences but does not tell Frost what that will be. The principal should not have signed the form for Frost in the first place. And he should have said right then and there what would happend to Frost if he did attend the prom. This was a breakdown of communication.

I would like to see this contract that had to be signed. From just the little bit of infornation is sounds like it just states what the student will be expected not to do. Dance, kiss, hold hands and not listen to rock music. But does it also state that these activities are not to be conducted off school grounds also? Can a school (public or private)legally control the behavior of students off school grounds? And does this contract state what the punishments will be for breaking the contract? 1st offense, 2nd offense etc? Then too, what is the age of consent for this state. Many states won't allow contracts to be made with children under age. Only the parents can make the contract. Then it is up to the parent to make sure the child follows the rules.

Maplewood Academy had a similar situation. We didn't like it,but tough,we wanted the boys in a christian school.

We signed and we understood what we signed.

A group of students met at the mall on home leave and went to the movies.

Word got out and the students were disciplined.

That was in the eighties and I have no idea what they do now.

We had agreed and signed as to the rules.

It was up to the parents to see that their student did follow them.

[GreatLakesGramma]

If I come to an intersection and the light is red, I need to stop, otherwise the police can give me a ticket for not following the rules.

Not to mention that you could have an accident. There is a reason for the red light. It's a matter of safety. It's the same with the rules the school made. They feel those rules will help safeguard young people against sexual immorality, by stopping them before they do something that can lead them farther than they should go.

The nature of male/female relationships is that once close physical contact is made, the hormones take over, and it becomes the focus of the relationship, making it nearly impossible to objectively evaluate the relationship so as to make sure it is one that will stand the test of time. Too many people marry in haste (or nowadays, move in together), due to infatuation, only to find, once the infatuation wears off and reality sets in, that there is nothing else there at all.

[LifeHiscost]

So I say to heck with this covenant. I say leave the blooming legalists and their school. He would better off with sinners than hanging around the self-righteous.

Interesting to note that Jesus' initial invitation for the nucleus of the new covenant church was not "love Me" but "follow

Me", which appears little different than "Remember the Sabbath". However if we see that as a given rule we would have to consider Jesus as a legalist, and with the advice above, better the disciples leave Him than be considered legalistic.

"And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him." Matthew 9:9 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

While you may consider teaching your children to keep their word is legalistic,I have another name for it. Honesty and integrity

[LifeHiscost]

So it's more offensive to God for one to play the hypocrite then to fully apostatize.

Rob

In one sense that is true, Robert. However, just as God allowed time for mankind to recognize they could only "be good" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so the young unregenerate heart

must be controlled until such time that they recognize that uncontrolled behavior brings only anguish and sorrow to themselves and others.

Admittedly some parents are much better than others at revealing love to be the primary reason the youngsters in their care must be disciplined for their own good, to remove that enforced control too soon would be, and has been a literal death sentence to those who have never learned they need to show their ability to be trusted before the reins of control are released to them.

Jesus has that perfect ability to know when and how best to pass the torch of control. Most of humankind does a miserable job, as witnessed by the world in which we live, of which each of us are part.

You don't have to believe in the commandments if you don't wish. However, just following one commandment, by the world as a whole, would solve a plethora of problems, " Thou shalt not murder," whether you follow the rule legalistically or because you love your neighbor.

"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love." Galatians 5:13 NIV

Cheers!

[LifeHiscost]

It isn't hypocrital legalism to keep your word.

In the lives of many, it is because they love Jesus enough to do just that.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."John 14:15 NASB

And that is a New Covenant promise, Robert.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Children can learn very early in life about keeping their word. One responsibility parents have is to teach and guide them till they do reach maturity.

This has nothing to do with flattering ourselves. Only in your mind is there this obsessive need to make everything about legalism.

Seems to me there is a little something about "training a child in the way he should go" in the bible.

I will leave you to your obsessive need to make everyone a legalist and to instruct others that desire to see honesty and integrity in their children how not to flatter themselves.

Guess I prefer to stay in the mind set of being thankful that our sons can be depended on to keep their word.

Along with the fact that God gave me certain responsibilities as a mother that you cannot reduce to legalism.

You may see what I do as legalism,that is fine. I see what you do and say as a desperate act to convince yourself and everyone else how right you are and that nothing is required of us in this life. Salvation by Robert is no better than salvation by works

Hope you have found happiness in that. I will continue to be thankful that my sons do know the importance of keeping their word. Whether in this life as business men or their eternal life

Robert, it is hard for me to take sides with someone when I know that God's love does not diminish for either party, no matter how wrong they might be. However I also know that God's love will not be fulfilled for many, as a direct result of counsel that makes it a virtue to refrain from obeying God, until a person can be fully mature in obedience.

It appears by your posts you believe you can enter the kingdom of heaven without following rules. May I say that is about as easy as entering the kingdom without following Christ.

Lucifer taught that ideology.

"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Matthew 24:12 NKJV

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Romans 13:10 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

For me I am thankful for the men our sons turned out to be.

" LORD, who may abide in Your tabernacle?

Who may dwell in Your holy hill?

He who swears to his own hurt and does not change;

He who does these things shall never be moved."

Psalms 15:1,4,5 NKJV

And I'm happy you've done that which is legal.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Rules will make them run from God....

And that's the gospel according to Robert.

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."Galatians 1:8 KJV

"Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved."Matthew 24:11-13 NKJV underlined mine LHC

Under the new Covenant. The fact that some don't endure, doesn't change the rules.

Regards!