Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[pnattmbtc]

I agree.

But we also have to understand that Jesus has different "roles".

And the execution of those "roles" seems to indicate that His character has many aspects to it that we might not like, because we are human.

This point has been made before.

This sounds like you do not believe that Jesus Christ in His humanity provided a full revelation of God's character. We need to supplement what Christ revealed in His humanity with other things, such as stories of destruction. I've understood you correctly?

By the way, I've made three posts several times, one about how specifically the wicked are set on fire, another in regards to God's using force/violence, and a third about discussing this subject without reference to God's character, Jesus Christ, or the cross. These are open questions for anyone to address. You are invited to do so. I like your posts. You are respectful in tone, brief in the points you make, and I appreciate your contributions to the discussion (even if disagreeing )

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I agree.

But we also have to understand that Jesus has different "roles".

And the execution of those "roles" seems to indicate that His character has many aspects to it that we might not like, because we are human.

This point has been made before.

This sounds like you do not believe that Jesus Christ in His humanity provided a full revelation of God's character. We need to supplement what Christ revealed in His humanity with other things, such as stories of destruction. I've understood you correctly?

By the way, I've made three posts several times, one about how specifically the wicked are set on fire, another in regards to God's using force/violence, and a third about discussing this subject without reference to God's character, Jesus Christ, or the cross. These are open questions for anyone to address. You are invited to do so. I like your posts. You are respectful in tone, brief in the points you make, and I appreciate your contributions to the discussion (even if disagreeing )

Jesus of course revealed the Father.

But all of Jesus work was not revealed on earth.

So we cannot truly say we have had the Father "fully" revealed.

The sanctuary service teaches me this.

Jesus performed the following roles:

1. Lamb

2. Priest

3. High Priest

4. Judge

5. Executioner of justice

So as I consider my Love and Lord Jesus' work on earth, I remember that this was the manifestation of the Lamb part of His nature.

I am also cautious to think that I have even begun to understand Christ's nature.

Why?

Because I recognise in myself, a lack of consistently being led by the Spirit.

That means in all of my beliefs, all of my understanding, the "self" is involved.

But as the Lord leads me into the fullness of the Spirit, this will change.

So, I cannot state at this point that I understand this about God or understand that.

I can only state I do not understand very much.

But then I also know that applies to my brethren. :-)

Hence my caution to state that "I" understand Christ's character.

I do not think "anyone" should make that claim.

I also think this idea that God is not a destroyer arises out of this principle of "self rule".

It denies God the right to be anything other than what "man" decrees.

So when someone says: "You do not understand God's Character, but I do...", I find a certain caution being directed in me by the Lord.

Who by searching can find out God?

God bless,

Mark

PS.

The other points involve a lot of reasoning and I am in the middle of a very beautiful study, so forgive me if I cannot give them the time they would deserve.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Usually by the time one gets to this topic, one has already studied and understands those things. Are you saying you need to back up? The name of this topic is: "Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?"

We know he's a loving God, that should be evident in what he has done in our lives. The question is, will he finally destroy the wicked like he says he will?

I think God will save us, but destroy sin.

Will God save all people? The Bible is very clear that God will not force people to give up sin. If people want their sin, God will let them keep it, so that when God destroys sin and Satan, He must destroy people who have sin in them and insist on keeping it.

The sanctuary service shows how God separates sin from us.

Millions upon millions will be saved, but many billions, sadly, will be utterly lost because they refuse God's appeal in the gospel.

[wayfinder]

You are absolutly right John317, consider also the following text.

Matthew 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The hypocrites are pretenders/actors and their place is among the wicked. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is because they know they will be distroyed and they continue to be unrepentant even in this place.

Matthew 8:12

but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there R523 will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13

"Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 25:30

"Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The outer darkness is a place completely separated from God. This place is the place chosen by those who dwell in it, because they do not want to be in the company of the God of truth and justice. At the end of the great tribulation they will be executed by Christ and then resurrected by Christ at the end of the 1000 years to be cast into the lake of fire never to be thought of or heard from forever more!

Malachi 4:3

"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

[skyblue888]

Remember wayfinder, there is a better way to explain the language of the Bible for "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

This is why the overwhelming majority of the peoples of this earth inluding those who profess to believe present truth, still see God in a false light.

Even John the Baptist expected Christ to reveal Himself as a God that answereth fy fire. He was so sadly mistaken. This we are clearly told in D.A.215,217.

And the disciples of Jesus were also plagued with the same misunderstanding. They too had misinterpreted the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God. The proof of this is when they asked Jesus to call fire down from heaven upon the Samaritans but Jesus rebuked them saying that they did not know by what spirit they were actuated. It was the spirit of Satan of course for "There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt or destroy those who do not appreciate our work or act contrary to our ideas." D.A.489.

John the Baptist and Christ's disciples had more to unlearn than to learn about the character of God, and so do we.

sky

[John317]

Jesus of course revealed the Father.

But all of Jesus work was not revealed on earth.

So we cannot truly say we have had the Father "fully" revealed.

Very true. Many people have stumbled over this because it seemed to them that the God of the Old Testament is different from Jesus. What they don't realize is that it was Jesus who was known as Jehovah in the OT and who led the children in the wilderness. See 1 Cor. 10: 9.

The truth is that we will continue to learn about God's character throughout eternity. We still have a great deal to learn. The problem will be if we refuse to learn and say that we know all there is to know, or if we say that we can't be wrong about anything.

If God were to tell us that He never destroyed or killed, I would be OK with it. I would only ask why the Bible kept telling us that God destroyed. Why didn't the Bible say that God allowed Satan to destroy the world in a flood or in the lake of fire? So I would have questions about the Bible-- not about God Himself.

On the other hand, if God were to tell us that He does indeed destroy the wicked at the end, what would be the response of those who insist that God cannot destroy the wicked without Himself being like Satan? Would they be able to worship and admire and love Him? I wonder.

[Guest]

I wonder the same thing.

[wayfinder]

Then I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out, after Jesus leaves the Sanctuary. Said the angel--It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners; but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the 1000 years. (The Present Truth, November 1, 1850, paragraph 4)

[Guest]

Thanks for that wayfinder.

[skyblue888]

John, that will never happen because God is not the destroyer, Satan is. "Satan is the destroyer." "God destroys no man." And it is just as true that God destroys no angel though He has said to Lucifer "And I destroyed you, O covering cherub." Ezekiel 28:16. After the 1000 years, the Lord will not lift the finger against Satan to destroy him anymore than He did toward king Saul and yet we read, "God slew Saul." 1 Chro.10:14. We know what that means. Saul forfeited the Lord's protection and he was left without any protection from himself or from his enemies or from the malice and enmity of Satan.

If God's professed people received these Biblical facts with the simple faith of a little child, they would see eye to eye. Isaiah 52:9.

The statements quoted above go hand in hand with the foundation principle for the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin, and that is that "God does not stand toward the sinner--man or angel-- as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." *-- supplied.

These simple declarations are always true whether before or after the 1000 years. God does not change. He will not change after the 1000 years. His principles of dealing with sin are ever the same for He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

sky

[John317]

John, that will never happen because God is not the destroyer, Satan is. "Satan is the destroyer." "God destroys no man." And it is just as true that God destroys no angel though He has said to Lucifer "And I destroyed you, O covering cherub." Ezekiel 28:16. After the 1000 years, the Lord will not lift the finger against Satan to destroy him anymore than He did toward king Saul and yet we read, "God slew Saul." 1 Chro.10:14. We know what that means. Saul forfeited the Lord's protection and he was left without any protection from himself or from his enemies or from the malice and enmity of Satan.

I don't believe God is "the destroyer," either. Satan is the destroyer because it was he who began the rebellion.

At the end, when God fully reveals His glory, Satan and all who follow him will be destroyed because of their own choices. They will have forfeited the gift of life. Both the Bible and Ellen White say they will deserve the punishment they receive. She says that the saints along with Christ mete out to the wicket the portion of the punishment that the wicked must suffer, and in that context, she says that Satan must suffer much longer than those he's deceived. They suffer according to their deeds. She's clearly not merely talking about suffering the pangs of conscience. While it's true that the wicked suffer because of their knowledge of what they've done, it's also true that they suffer physically. I don't know how else to understand GC 673. Are we in agreement on these points?

God will have no choice but to destroy them when He destroys sin. It's important that we remember that the Bible is clear that God's justice and the law of God demand the punishment of the wicked. Our modern way of thinking recoils at that concept but yet it is taught throughout the Bible.

[wayfinder]

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.--DA 764.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, I wrote the following:

Quote:

This sounds like you do not believe that Jesus Christ in His humanity provided a full revelation of God's character. We need to supplement what Christ revealed in His humanity with other things, such as stories of destruction. I've understood you correctly?

You responded to my post, but I didn't see the answer to my question. At least, if you understood it, I didn't understand your answer. Would you agree that I've understood you correctly?

Also to respond to a point in your post, I've not claimed to understand God's character. I've said I believed that all that we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ in His humanity.

[pnattmbtc]

I've asked this question several times, and still don't know the answer. Those of you that believe the wicked will be set on fire for many hours or many days, how does this happen?

1.God's character causes spontaneous combustion, and ignites them.

2.God sends fire from heaven upon them, like a lightning bolt, and that sets them on fire, to burn like a torch.

3.The wicked are in a soup of molten lava, a sea of glass, and this causes them to be set on fire.

Or perhaps a combination of the above? Or none of the above? I'd be especially interested in an explanation of the EW statement that says that the fire continues to burn them until there is no particle left. Does this mean they lost their feet, then their legs, then their stomach, up until their neck, and finally their head? (I'm assuming this is the right order, so their indescribable agony continue as long as possible. I'm guessing the part of the brain that perceives pain would have to be the last to go.)

[pnattmbtc]

Another question I've asked a number of times is how does the idea that God will set people on fire tie into the cross? On the cross we see that Jesus Christ felt the anguish that the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. The sense of His Father's displeasure against sin was felt keenly by Him. His heart was broken, and He died. He wasn't set on fire, however. But His heart did melt like wax.

Given that, in order to receive the life that was His, Christ suffered the death that was ours, the second death, how is it that He wasn't set on fire?

Also in the cross we see the wrath of God against sin revealed. What happened? Did God punish and kill His Son?

[pnattmbtc]

Another question that comes to mind is how is it that God would use violence and force to accomplish His purposes when these are the tools of the enemy? Before the entrance of sin, these things did not exist. According to the SOP, these are not a principle of God's government, but are only to be found in the government of the enemy. So why would God be using these tools? She says that love is the means by which God governs, and that the principles of kindness, mercy and love He uses in the judgment. How can setting someone on fire for many hours or many days in order to cause them to suffer as much as possible be construed as kindness?

[pnattmbtc]

Twilight:Jesus of course revealed the Father.

But all of Jesus work was not revealed on earth.

So we cannot truly say we have had the Father "fully" revealed.

John317:Very true.

[Guest]

As they endeavored to represent God by material objects, their minds were blinded to His majesty and power; they ceased to realize the holiness of His character, or the sacred, unchanging nature of His requirements. As sin became general, it appeared less and less sinful, and they finally declared that the divine law was no longer in force; that it was contrary to the character of God to punish transgression; and they denied that His judgments were to be visited upon the earth. {PP 96}

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John, that will never happen because God is not the destroyer, Satan is. "Satan is the destroyer." "God destroys no man." And it is just as true that God destroys no angel though He has said to Lucifer "And I destroyed you, O covering cherub." Ezekiel 28:16. After the 1000 years, the Lord will not lift the finger against Satan to destroy him anymore than He did toward king Saul and yet we read, "God slew Saul." 1 Chro.10:14. We know what that means. Saul forfeited the Lord's protection and he was left without any protection from himself or from his enemies or from the malice and enmity of Satan.

I don't believe God is "the destroyer," either. Satan is the destroyer because it was he who began the rebellion.

At the end, when God fully reveals His glory, Satan and all who follow him will be destroyed because of their own choices. They will have forfeited the gift of life. Both the Bible and Ellen White say they will deserve the punishment they receive. She says that the saints along with Christ mete out to the wicket the portion of the punishment that the wicked must suffer, and in that context, she says that Satan must suffer much longer than those he's deceived. They suffer according to their deeds. She's clearly not merely talking about suffering the pangs of conscience. While it's true that the wicked suffer because of their knowledge of what they've done, it's also true that they suffer physically. I don't know how else to understand GC 673. Are we in agreement on these points?

God will have no choice but to destroy them when He destroys sin. It's important that we remember that the Bible is clear that God's justice and the law of God demand the punishment of the wicked. Our modern way of thinking recoils at that concept but yet it is taught throughout the Bible.

I don't see how your idea ties in with either DA 764 or DA 108. DA 764 brings out that had God *left* Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished. If God actually *caused* Satan to die by setting him on fire, this could hardly have been expressed as His "leaving" Satan to perish. Nor would the statement that had God destroyed Satan been misunderstood, because death is the "inevitable result of sin" make sense.

In DA 108 it points out that the same thing that which gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked. This could hardly be literal fire. And the context makes clear that it is not. What slays the wicked is the "light of the glory of God" which is the revelation "of the character of God" (following sentence).

Also GC 541-543 speaks of the principles of kindness, mercy an love being used in the judgment, as well as the fact that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves. Setting someone on fire for the purpose of causing the person to suffer excruciating pain for days could hardly be described as "kindness." Also, one could hardly expect anyone to voluntarily choose to be tortured for days at a time (I'm used the word "tortured" carefully here, from the perspective of the one being burned; it seems very likely to me that one being punished by being burned alive for days would view it in this way).

[Lutz13]

As they endeavored to represent God by material objects, their minds were blinded to His majesty and power; they ceased to realize the holiness of His character, or the sacred, unchanging nature of His requirements. As sin became general, it appeared less and less sinful, and they finally declared that the divine law was no longer in force; that it was contrary to the character of God to punish transgression; and they denied that His judgments were to be visited upon the earth. {PP 96}

I find this a bit humorous. Not sure why but I do. You keep quoting things like this assuming we are saying Gods judgement will not be pour out or whatever. That is not the case, what is being discussed is how Gods judgements will be poured out.

[skyblue888]

Exactly.

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." MR 14, 3.1

This is true at all times whether before or after the 1000 years no matter how the language of the Bible may seem to be contrary to those words, for the statement above is a divine commentary as to how we are to understand the language of the Bible.

sky

[Guest]

Basically what you are saying is: "That statement is divine commentary and is above all that the Bible says on this topic. No matter what the Bible says, this is what we are to go by"

The Prophet wouldn't approve of that, and God dosn't approve of it. And I am astonished at you.

[skyblue888]

I am astonished at you who profess to believe that her writings are inspired that you would be so astonished at me for believing that they are inspired. The testimonies are not above the Word of God. They shed light on the Word of God.

sky

[Guest]

You have placed them above the word of God. Look at your words in your last post.

"no matter how the language of the Bible may seem to be contrary to those words, for the statement above is a divine commentary"

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Jesus of course revealed the Father.

But all of Jesus work was not revealed on earth.

So we cannot truly say we have had the Father "fully" revealed.

Very true. Many people have stumbled over this because it seemed to them that the God of the Old Testament is different from Jesus. What they don't realize is that it was Jesus who was known as Jehovah in the OT and who led the children in the wilderness. See 1 Cor. 10: 9.

The truth is that we will continue to learn about God's character throughout eternity. We still have a great deal to learn. The problem will be if we refuse to learn and say that we know all there is to know, or if we say that we can't be wrong about anything.

If God were to tell us that He never destroyed or killed, I would be OK with it. I would only ask why the Bible kept telling us that God destroyed. Why didn't the Bible say that God allowed Satan to destroy the world in a flood or in the lake of fire? So I would have questions about the Bible-- not about God Himself.

On the other hand, if God were to tell us that He does indeed destroy the wicked at the end, what would be the response of those who insist that God cannot destroy the wicked without Himself being like Satan? Would they be able to worship and admire and love Him? I wonder.

Indeed.

This is why we have to be careful not to "box" God in, in my view.

How can I even begin to understand the length, breadth and depth of His character.

The only way I could even attempt to do that, was if "pride" blinded me so that I thought I could indeed "box" Gods character...

Mark