Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Lutz13]

Many regard the threatenings of the Bible as designed merely to frighten men into obedience, and not to be literally fulfilled....Such a doctrine, presuming upon God's mercy, but ignoring His justice, pleases the carnal heart {GC88 537}

You're saying God will literally destroy the wicked, but he dosn't really do it. It's all Satan's doing no matter what God says in the Bible and SoP.

I agree with that quote as well. Really good stuff. As for your inquiry. God dealt with David in the same way He deals with sin. God permitted the sin to run its course instead of preventing it. What happened?

#1: His baby son died. Did God kill it? Probably not. Many babies today die from birth.

#2: Amnon raped Tamar.

#3: Absolam murdered Amnon after two years.(Two years God gave Amnon time to repent.)

#4: Absolam fled but was granted mercy and he rebelled against David.

#5: Took Davids concubines in front of all Israel

#6: The big battle finally happened and Absalom was killed.

Now did this affect David? Oh yes, very much! It changed him a lot, he wasn't the same person after all this. Did God punish Him? Indeed He did. Did God cause all of the above? Of course not!

[Guest]

Who told you that God will get rid of Satan this way?

[Lutz13]

Who told you that God will get rid of Satan this way?

I think it was when He said. I do not change. Oooh yeah..

When He told David, "I will cause" I think He also said to Satan. "I will cause"

I don't think God changes, and He seems pretty consistent.

[Guest]

You keep referring to things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why won't you accept what the Bible and SOP have to say about this topic instead of always looking elsewhere and saying: No it's got to be this way.

Here is a quote from John317 to one who is like minded as you:

"The quote from GC 289 is not referring to the destruction of the wicked after the 1000 years. I think it's important to study what Ellen White says about the destruction of the wicked, in Exhaustive EG White Commentary on Revelation, where she says that the saints and Jesus "decide" and "mete out to the wicked the portion [of punishment] which the wicked MUST suffer, according to their [wicked] deeds." She says this is "decided" during the 1000 years of judgment. It can only mean that the wicked suffer according to decisions of Jesus and the saints after they consider the lives of all the wicked. It is not left up to wicked people to decide how much other wicked people will suffer. See EW 290, 291, 52, 53.

If our loved ones are lost, we don't have to worry that they will be killed in some horrible way by an angry mob, but they will be destroyed by a loving God who will not let them suffer any more than is demanded by a just God. We can trust God to do the right thing. We cannot trust the wicked to be mete out justice. God will. "

[Lutz13]

You keep referring to things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Why won't you accept what the Bible and SOP have to say about this topic instead of always looking elsewhere and saying: No it's got to be this way.

It has everything to do with the topic at hand:

Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator? Last I checked, that was the topic? Yes?

What do you mean looking elsewhere? I got it straight from the bible.

[Guest]

What happened to David has nothing to do with the destruction of the wicked!

You ignore what the Bible says about the destruction of the wicked along with Sop. You have to rely on unrelated topics.

[Guest]

If the devil can't get you to go off on one side of the road, he'll go to the other extreme and try to get you to go off the other side of the road. And you have swallowed the hook my friend. The truth is in the middle.

[Lutz13]

What happened to David has nothing to do with the destruction of the wicked!

You ignore what the Bible says about the destruction of the wicked along with Sop. You have to rely on unrelated topics.

It has everything to do with it. I'm not contradicting anything. SOP says they are given time to create weapons. Satan inspires them to fight. What happens after they know the truth? They create their fiery furnace! They do it to themselves. Just like God says, "I will cause"

Just like the furnace in Daniels time. When Jesus stood with the three Hebrews. He stands with the saints and they are untouched.

You all claim that Satan and crew can't be killed by human means. Says who? They won't be hidden anymore.

[Twilight]

He dosn't change, but his role does, and this is the part you fail to comprehend. And by doing such, you misrepresent his character.

many would be led to believe that the threatenings of God's word would not be literally fulfilled; for it would be against his character of benevolence and love,.... Satan has led them to another extreme, to entirely overlook the justice of God, and the threatenings in his Word, and represent him as being all mercy, {1SG 115}

This is an interesting quote Richard.

[Lutz13]

Well Richard, it was nice chatting with you. But I gotta get to sleep! zzzz

Enjoy your day!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

He dosn't change, but his role does, and this is the part you fail to comprehend. And by doing such, you misrepresent his character.

many would be led to believe that the threatenings of God's word would not be literally fulfilled; for it would be against his character of benevolence and love,.... Satan has led them to another extreme, to entirely overlook the justice of God, and the threatenings in his Word, and represent him as being all mercy, {1SG 115}

So according to you, He does indeed change? Yes?

Jesus was:

1. Lamb

2. Priest

3. High Priest

4. Judge

5. Executor of judgement

We should consider how His character is manifested biblically in all these roles.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

What happened to David has nothing to do with the destruction of the wicked!

You ignore what the Bible says about the destruction of the wicked along with Sop. You have to rely on unrelated topics.

It has everything to do with it. I'm not contradicting anything. SOP says they are given time to create weapons. Satan inspires them to fight. What happens after they know the truth? They create their fiery furnace! They do it to themselves. Just like God says, "I will cause"

Just like the furnace in Daniels time. When Jesus stood with the three Hebrews. He stands with the saints and they are untouched.

You all claim that Satan and crew can't be killed by human means. Says who? They won't be hidden anymore.

On the other hand Lutz:

You claim that Satan and crew can be killed by human means. Says who?

There is not one statement to indicate that directly.

This has been asked before:

Is there one statement that indicates in the SOP that man kills Satan.

Is there even one at all?

:-)

[Guest]

If there was, this discussion would be over long before now.

[Twilight]

And this one puts it all finally to bed:

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his

244

sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}

Now let us consider that plain simple statement:

The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands

Which angels?

Holy angels.

What power?

Destructive power.

Commanded by whom?

God.

will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.

And here we see the other principle that has been presented as the "only" principle.

Yet this plain statement puts the whole matter to rest.

God permits destruction.

God also orders destruction.

Mark

[Guest]

Yep

[Twilight]

Yep

Totally conclusive Richard?

It is from my viewpoint.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yep

Totally conclusive Richard?

It is from my viewpoint.

Mine too, but you could raise one from the dead and it wouldn't convince them of anything. God has to be totally passive. There is no way he could do what he has said he will do.

They are locked into that train of thought, and it's really not worth the time to argue any further with them.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Mark, I wrote the following:

Quote:

This sounds like you do not believe that Jesus Christ in His humanity provided a full revelation of God's character. We need to supplement what Christ revealed in His humanity with other things, such as stories of destruction. I've understood you correctly?

You responded to my post, but I didn't see the answer to my question. At least, if you understood it, I didn't understand your answer. Would you agree that I've understood you correctly?

Also to respond to a point in your post, I've not claimed to understand God's character. I've said I believed that all that we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ in His humanity.

I think Jesus revealed God's character of love perfectly at the cross.

But I do not think I understand it.

It is one thing for it to be revealed, it is another for a "finite" mind to claim to understand.

This is why I urge caution when we say that God does not "destroy", we are making a judgement of character.

And if we are wrong, we have sinned.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I've asked this question several times, and still don't know the answer. Those of you that believe the wicked will be set on fire for many hours or many days, how does this happen?

1.God's character causes spontaneous combustion, and ignites them.

2.God sends fire from heaven upon them, like a lightning bolt, and that sets them on fire, to burn like a torch.

3.The wicked are in a soup of molten lava, a sea of glass, and this causes them to be set on fire.

Or perhaps a combination of the above? Or none of the above? I'd be especially interested in an explanation of the EW statement that says that the fire continues to burn them until there is no particle left. Does this mean they lost their feet, then their legs, then their stomach, up until their neck, and finally their head? (I'm assuming this is the right order, so their indescribable agony continue as long as possible. I'm guessing the part of the brain that perceives pain would have to be the last to go.)

It is clear that the destruction comes with fire.

But remember the burning bush.

It was not an "earthly" fire.

But it was still described as a fire.

It will look like a fire and have the effects of fire, but to define it beyond that is more than I believe the scripture reveals.

Just like the burning bush, the nature of the fire is not revealed there, it is just stated as a fact.

We must not use our "concept" of fire, to limit what the bible describes, but just accept the plain statements by faith (unless we have a good reason not to) and discuss the details if God reveals it.

All other discussions on the subject would be conjecture and "opinion".

God bless,

Mark :-)

So it sounds like your answer is "something else"? That is, it's not items 1, 2, or 3 on my list. Is that correct?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Another question I've asked a number of times is how does the idea that God will set people on fire tie into the cross? On the cross we see that Jesus Christ felt the anguish that the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. The sense of His Father's displeasure against sin was felt keenly by Him. His heart was broken, and He died. He wasn't set on fire, however. But His heart did melt like wax.

Given that, in order to receive the life that was His, Christ suffered the death that was ours, the second death, how is it that He wasn't set on fire?

Also in the cross we see the wrath of God against sin revealed. What happened? Did God punish and kill His Son?

I would not for one second claim to know the answer to that question. :-)

Mark

To confirm I'm understanding this post correctly, you are saying that you have no idea why Jesus Christ was not set on fire on the cross. Do I understand you correctly?

[Dr. Rich]

I thought this subject had been put to bed--so to speak. So where does one get that any fire was involved at the cross? Of, for that matter, where does one get that Jesus died of a broken heart from the weight of all of the sins of the wicked? I never read that in the bible. Maybe it came from a fictional book.

[Guest]

So Rich, will God destroy the wicked?

[Dr. Rich]

They all commit suicide---NOT! We agree on this (I hope so). Of course God MUST destroy the wicked. It was their choice-yes, but God said vengeance is mine!

[Guest]

That is what they claim basically, that sin destroys itself.

[Gail]

Of, for that matter, where does one get that Jesus died of a broken heart from the weight of all of the sins of the wicked? I never read that in the bible. Maybe it came from a fictional book.

I've heard that the mixture of blood and water that came out of Jesus' side when the spear was thrust there is a physical symptom of just that- a broken heart.