Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

God is the Judge, whether you like it or not. I trust God to be the Judge. Not Satan. I do not question God's methods.

[Lutz13]

No it's not. Nebuchadnezzar is not God. God gives every opportunity for salvation. Those who are lost have chosen to be lost.

Nebuchadnezzar gave them an opportunity. Bow down and you won't see the furnace. Doesn't your view of God say the same thing?

Those who are lost have indeed chose to be lost, they rejected the water that was offered to them.

[Guest]

You can put them in the same boat if you want to. But I will not do that. You are trying to form God into what you think he should be. Also you are questioning whether God can be just or not. However he decides to do it, is fine with me, because I trust him.

[Lutz13]

You can put them in the same boat if you want to. But I will not do that. You are trying to form God into what you think he should be. Also you are questioning whether God can be just or not. However he decides to do it, is fine with me, because I trust him.

God doesn't want robots. He wants those who truly wish to know Him. So yes, I am sure He is ok with me questioning. He will provide an answer for me as well.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

No it's not. Nebuchadnezzar is not God. God gives every opportunity for salvation. Those who are lost have chosen to be lost.

Nebuchadnezzar gave them an opportunity. Bow down and you won't see the furnace. Doesn't your view of God say the same thing?

Those who are lost have indeed chose to be lost, they rejected the water that was offered to them.

Do you believe that since Hitler killed many Jews and if God also killed many Jews, God is as evil as Hitler, perhaps even more so since God will kill many billions of humans whereas Hilter only killed millions?

Do you see any significance in the fact that God is the life-giver, omniscient, omnipotent, and that He knows the heart of every single person and has proven that He loves us?

Finally, do you believe God had a perfect right to destroy this whole world after the Fall? Had He done so, would that have been evidence that He was evil or unloving?

[John317]

So yes, I am sure He is ok with me questioning.

Of course God doesn't mind if we ask questions. He wants us to study and find out the truth to these questions FROM REVELATION. We won't find the truth from any other source, certainly not from human conjecture and human reasoning.

[John317]

The wicked will incinerate themselves in the end. Maybe Satan in his pride brings fire down on those who would try to kill him, and in the process fries himself. Who knows at this point...

See what I mean?!! Anything's possible when we start rejecting information and rearranging language and texts.

I would like to know if my friend, sky, is OK with this.

Do you still believe it will be human weaponry that will do it in the end?

[Guest]

Excactly

[skyblue888]

I do believe fire will be involved but it will not come directly out from the Lord but from their own weapons as Mrs. White was shown in vision. Yet as we all know the language of the Bible is that fire will come out from God out of heaven to consume them all.

[LifeHiscost]

TERESAQ[sDA]---does the above verse apply more aptly to the poster than to the ones it is thrown at?

and that does not excuse any unGodly behavior on any other side either.

If that is what you were referring to, don't worry about it; it's fine.

[skyblue888]

You can put them in the same boat if you want to. But I will not do that. You are trying to form God into what you think he should be. Also you are questioning whether God can be just or not. However he decides to do it, is fine with me, because I trust him.

John the Baptist expected that when the Messiah would come He would reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire? he became very perplexed was he realized that Jesus would not meet his expectations! See D.A.215.

Mrs. White says he was mistaken about that. He had seen God in a false light as Elijah had. See D.A.217.

What about us today? Do we believe that when He comes the second time and after the 1000 years Christ will reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire?

sky

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

OTOH there was a severence somewhere there' date=' else Jesus' life would not have been forfeited. This is the reason why I have trouble with Jesus considered being in one place while the Father is in another and the Holy Spirit is in another. The only time there was ever separation of any member of the Godhead with the others, One died. But then that's another topic.

Blessings! [/quote']whoa!!!

are you a seventh day adventist or of another denomination?

Are you searching for Truth or are you searching to determine Truth by the denomination with which one is a member? Are you refuting the underlined and if so, on what grounds. And again, this is and it may be on the Theological forum under the thread, ....Trinity, which I haven't been following since more often than not, more heat than light is generated when discussing the Subject.

Blessings!

[epaminondas]

Is God bound to the ways of this world?

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, 'says the Lord'"(Isaiah 55:8)

Is God limited to the ways of this world?

[LifeHiscost]

"Love Me, or I'll set you fire!" How can that work?

The same way it is said, don't lose your footing when climbing

Mt. Everest alone or you will fall to your death.

Regards!

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

a Jew and a profitable business.

I seem to recall (on another thread) your saying something similar about James and Ellen White, that they were into the "religion business" and that she did her work well. You apparently think highly of dedicated Christians.

What would you do with the world as it is if you were God?

I have no desire to be God, or even a prime minister or president. I've thought about the tough decisions God will have; my one friend died at 33. I knew him well. He was not really religious, even less than me at that age. Can he be judged the same way as me who had decades longer to find things out? Kiwi Terry was a psychopath, much like any number of your better known criminals. He did not have the concept of right or wrong. There was something seriously wrong with his wiring. The odds were stacked at his birth for him to go seriously off the rails. I never had any desire to do the things he did. My genetic code is just different. Neither of us made ourselves. Another tough one for God to judge. I believe God in His infinite wisdom and scope will take everything into account and come up with the right decision, whatever that may be. I shudder to think that such decisions should be my responsibility. No, I'm very happy to leave that all in God's hands, thank you very much.

But what I do know, can you find any factual or logical mistake in that?

Don't rely on feelings. When they enter, reason leaves. Feelings are the operating environment of the con man. Our church has left reason and fact behind and has become feely, touchy. Truth does not lie that way.

[LifeHiscost]

[Lutz13]

Do you believe that since Hitler killed many Jews and if God also killed many Jews, God is as evil as Hitler, perhaps even more so since God will kill many billions of humans whereas Hilter only killed millions?

[pnattmbtc]

You obviously didn't miss his questions, because you quoted them. And then you sidestepped a straight answer.

Again, Richard, I've been far more conscientious in answer John317's questions than you have mine. I don't really see why you feel you have either standing or call to be commenting on this. If you would respond to my questions, I'd appreciate that.

If John317 doesn't feel that I've adequately addressed a question, he can re-ask it, just like I do with him if I feel he hasn't addressed something I've asked.

[pnattmbtc]

Try it the other way around you are trying to offer me water, yet I refuse to drink it! Is it your fault? NO! Though God is not an accuser He would rather say "It's my fault!"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What would you do with the world as it is if you were God?

I have no desire to be God, or even a prime minister or president. I've thought about the tough decisions God will have; my one friend died at 33. I knew him well. He was not really religious, even less than me at that age. Can he be judged the same way as me who had decades longer to find things out? Kiwi Terry was a psychopath, much like any number of your better known criminals. He did not have the concept of right or wrong. There was something seriously wrong with his wiring. The odds were stacked at his birth for him to go seriously off the rails. I never had any desire to do the things he did. My genetic code is just different. Neither of us made ourselves. Another tough one for God to judge. I believe God in His infinite wisdom and scope will take everything into account and come up with the right decision, whatever that may be. I shudder to think that such decisions should be my responsibility. No, I'm very happy to leave that all in God's hands, thank you very much.

The question doesn't assume that you want to be God. I'm asking you to think about-- and perhaps express your thoughts about-- how God is dealing with the problems of rebellion, sin and death in His universe. For instance, as you study the Bible about what God has done and will do, do you believe the verses that say God destroys should be taken literally, just as they read, or do you think that God does not actually kill or destroy?

[Guest]

In my current position, if it were indeed true that God will kill billions. Then yes, He is evil. If I am wrong, may He gracefully set me straight.

What you are doing is calling God evil if he dosn't conform to your pre-concieved, humanistic, and PC idea of what he should be. It's just my humble opinion, but that looks like dangerous ground to me.

If God is evil, how will he gracefully set you straight?

[John317]

And Satan is an accuser. So what we wind up with is one humble being, who is willing to be accused for things He didn't do, and willing to restore that which He stole not, and another being who accepts no responsibility for anything he does, but instead accuses the humble One. What will this look like?

Quote:

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them... (GC 35)

Yes, the wicked certainly do destroy themselves in the sense that they are reaping what they sowed by their choices throughout life. The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary punishment imposed on them.

Here is what Ellen White wrote:

Early Writings, pp. 52, 53--

"The saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and METE OUT to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, AND THAT WHICH THEY MUST RECEIVE AT THE EXECUTION OF THE JUDGMENT IS SET OFF AGAINST THEIR NAMES."

Jesus and His people decide how much the wicked must suffer on the basis of their evil deeds. She says that Jesus and the saints together "decide every case according to the deed done in the body" and "mete out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer." EW 290, 291.

When I read both statements-- that the wicked destroy themselves, and the saints mete out to the wicked the punishment they must receive-- I don't see a contradiction. These two statements harmonize if we understand them to mean that the punishment the wicked receive is due to their own choices. They don't mean that God doesn't destroy them. It means that they deserve their destruction and punishment.

Do you agree? If not, why not?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

And Satan is an accuser. So what we wind up with is one humble being, who is willing to be accused for things He didn't do, and willing to restore that which He stole not, and another being who accepts no responsibility for anything he does, but instead accuses the humble One. What will this look like?

Quote:

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them... (GC 35)

Yes, the wicked certainly do destroy themselves in the sense that they are reaping what they sowed by their choices throughout life. The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary punishment imposed on them.

Here is what Ellen White wrote:

Early Writings, pp. 52, 53--

"The saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and METE OUT to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, AND THAT WHICH THEY MUST RECEIVE AT THE EXECUTION OF THE JUDGMENT IS SET OFF AGAINST THEIR NAMES."

Jesus and His people decide how much the wicked must suffer on the basis of their evil deeds. She says that Jesus and the saints together "decide every case according to the deed done in the body" and "mete out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer." EW 290, 291.

When I read both statements-- that the wicked destroy themselves, and the saints mete out to the wicked the punishment they must receive-- I don't see a contradiction. These two statements harmonize if we understand them to mean that the punishment the wicked receive is due to their own choices. They don't mean that God doesn't destroy them. It means that they deserve their destruction and punishment.

Do you agree? If not, why not?

John, why is it that the most crutial part of that satan is always ignored?

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them... (GC 35)

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz

In my current position, if it were indeed true that God will kill billions. Then yes, He is evil. If I am wrong, may He gracefully set me straight.

What you are doing is calling God evil if he dosn't conform to your pre-concieved, humanistic, and PC idea of what he should be. It's just my humble opinion, but that looks like dangerous ground to me.

If God is evil, how will he gracefully set you straight?

Why do you assume I have a preconceived idea of who our God is? If you accuse me of this, then you also have a preconceived idea of who God is. Do you even understand what that word means? If means we decide who God is without having knowledge or experience of Him. Were you there in the flood? Did you go to the future to see the destruction of the wicked? I would say you haven't, so you also have a preconceived idea.

Now through reading scripture we can have conceived an idea of who God is. You see before I read scripture I had a preconceived idea. It was that God was a killer that burns people alive. After I read scripture I see God taking blame for the actions that He doesn't prevent. The reality of it is though, that those people that died because of this refused Gods protection. Yet God still says "I did it". Why? Why does He do this Richard? When people refuse to drink His water and die of thirst, why does He still say "its My fault"?

He says: "I killed Saul" "I caused Amnon to rape Tamar." "I caused Absalom to kill Amnon" "I caused Absalom to take David's concubines in front of all Israel" "I will cause a fire to come from the midst of thee"

You see, God never changes, and how He deals with sin will never change either. That is a conceived idea. Until that day comes though, our ideas are preconceived. As we are not 100% sure of the exact events that will transpire on the day of judgement.

Enjoy your Sabbath brother.

[John317]

John, why is it that the most crutial part of that satan is always ignored?

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them... (GC 35)

How do you understand and explain the fact that the both the Bible and SOP say that not all suffer the same? Ellen White says that some of the lost will be destroyed as in a moment and others suffer much longer. Apparently some will suffer for several days.

I understand this to mean that they suffer and are punished according to their deeds. In other words, someone like Hitler or Pol Pot would suffer more than someone who rejected Christ but never tried to hurt people and was a decent citizen. The idea is that during the 1000 years, an examination of the sins recorded against some people will show that they deserve far greater punishment than others.

To some people this seems very wrong. They think that it should be enough for all the wicked to simply die in an instant, without suffering. But would this satisfy the demands of justice and the law of God? Evidently not. Would it be right for someone like Hitler, who devoted years of his life to murder and violence, to die the same way that a nice, gentle person dies? Not according to the testimony of the Bible or of GC 673. Both these authoritative sources of God's revelation tell us that the wicked are punished according to their deeds. In God's plan, it wouldn't satisfy justice or the demands of God's law for the wicked not to be punished according to their evil deeds. Even human courts don't give the same punishment to all criminals irrespective of their crimes. I think virtually all people would be outraged at such a way of sentencing that made no distinction between the life-time, violent criminal and the person who spent his life as a law-abiding, productive citizen.

Wouldn't you agree that Ellen White's statement in Early Writings-- as well as in GC-- that the saints and Jesus "mete out the portion" the wicked must suffer require that God be in charge of the destruction of the wicked and not be simply a passive onlooker while billions commit mass murder? How could such an arrangement assure that justice is done and that the wicked suffer according to their deeds?