Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: John317

Christ said, "Do not fear those who can only kill the body but fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Criminals and even Satan can't destroy both body and soul but Christ and the Father can and will. That's why we have nothing to fear from mankind or Satan--as long as we're in union with Christ-- but we have plenty to worry about if we aren't right with God. Wouldn't you agree?

Powerful point.

This on its own should cause pause.

The only one, according to this quote, who can destroy body and soul is God...

Mark

I believe Satan can destroy body and soul. I don't believe the soul to be some spirit floating around somewhere. Satan has wrecked the human race as we know it. God is doing what HE can to restore both body and soul.

[Lutz13]

And can I add:

And not to condemn someone as spiritually blind when they do not agree with the conjecture and theorising.

I personally have been cast off and placed in the "heretic" camp for not accepting this teaching in a personal email.

It seems that fire is still being called down from heaven when one disagrees.

That is deeply concerning.

Mark

Amen brother, I can agree here. Though I can get fired up, I pray I can also drop my pride and have respect for those that don't see as I do.

I'm sorry to hear that you were placed into the heretic camp. You provide much light to these forums, even though we do not agree on this topic. You have helped me in many areas!

[pnattmbtc]

No, of course neither God nor God's love are literal fire. But what we can be sure of from Scripture is that the nature of God is such that sin is destroyed in the presence of God's unveiled glory, and the process of that destruction takes the form of what appears to human eyes to be real fire.

[pnattmbtc]

But then you have a strange problem.

You have to explain why the Father withdrew Himself from Christ.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But then you have a strange problem.

You have to explain why the Father withdrew Himself from Christ.

Why He permitted His Grace to be withdrawn so that Jesus could die.

Jesus committed no sin.

So if God is not the executor in this case, surely He had no right to withdraw from Christ?

He made a conscious decision to withdraw His protection.

From one who had done no sin.

In so doing He signed Jesus' death decree.

Jesus submitted to this.

Now we say that God withdraws Himself from sinners because of their sins and gives them up to die.

But God here withdrew Himself from the righteous....

Your thoughts?

Mark

Hey Mark,

I believe this is one of the mysteries of the gospel. Jesus became the sin bearer. He became sin for us. The sins of the world were placed onto Him. This is why the wrath of God was poured out onto Him. He prayed to His Father. "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."(Matthew 26:39) The cup Jesus was going to drink was the wrath of God. The cup that we should have all drank, yet He drank it in our place.

I agree it is a mystery Lutz :-)

But it does challenge the very idea that God does not destroy.

I think it bears some careful prayer and thought.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

And this is where we go wrong if we continue to take one principle and beat every other principle to death with it.

We have to replace Fire from Heaven/Angels of God with:

Volcano

Mark

Mark, I'm speculating here. But I truly believe the vision Ellen saw of New York. The one in Testimonies for the Church, volume 9 page 12 refered to 9/11. She explains that God knocked down them down and they crumbled into little stones. We know they were knocked down by man, yet He takes blame because He allowed it to happen.

Refering to the volcano, and this may be a bit but have they found Sodom and Gomorrah?

I remember Ron Wyatt claiming he had found it and their was some interesting evidence.

There is a video available if I remember.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Powerful point.

This on its own should cause pause.

The only one, according to this quote, who can destroy body and soul is God...

Mark [/quote']

I believe Satan can destroy body and soul. I don't believe the soul to be some spirit floating around somewhere. Satan has wrecked the human race as we know it. God is doing what HE can to restore both body and soul.

But does the text not say only God can destroy body and soul?

Or are we to only fear satan.

Because if satan is the one who destroys body and soul, then he is the one we are to fear.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

And can I add:

And not to condemn someone as spiritually blind when they do not agree with the conjecture and theorising.

I personally have been cast off and placed in the "heretic" camp for not accepting this teaching in a personal email.

It seems that fire is still being called down from heaven when one disagrees.

That is deeply concerning.

Mark

Amen brother, I can agree here. Though I can get fired up, I pray I can also drop my pride and have respect for those that don't see as I do.

I'm sorry to hear that you were placed into the heretic camp. You provide much light to these forums, even though we do not agree on this topic. You have helped me in many areas!

Thank you Lutz.

It is unfortunate that we as a people have not learned to overcome this simple lack of being able to accept someone who does not agree.

Time and time again I have seen this in life.

When someone rejects someones point of view, the person can think they are being rejected.

I myself have to deal with this tempation.

And that is exactly what it is.

And the behaviour is based in self.

But it often hides behind the guise of "holiness", or "rebuking in the Lord".

It took me a while to learn to resist this particular temptation and I am probably not completely free from it yet.

I think as a people we need to remember:

Reading the prophet does not make one a prophet...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But then you have a strange problem.

You have to explain why the Father withdrew Himself from Christ.

He didn't.

So what then of Jesus words?

"Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?

Is it maybe a cast that God was there.

But the spiritual connection had been broken?

So Jesus lost that connection with God and was forsaken.

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

My own view is that we are always better off simply accepting the plain language of the Bible.

I'm in full agreement with that statement but also recognize that if a person does not believe that a Higher Power is necessary for understanding, that which is plain as the nose on one's face with that guidance, only if another believer has interceded for their benefit, and if they personally haven't made themselves enemies of God, will they be able to understand

ought but what God allows in their darkened mind. And the

underlined is true in any case.

This statement of my own opinion based on the Word and is not alluding to anyone on this forum as being beyond the pale of Jesus' guidance.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

So what then of Jesus words?

"Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So what then of Jesus words?

"Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?

This is the effect of sin. It causes one to feel that God has abandoned you, even though God doesn't do that. It causes us to believe things about God which aren't true. This is our whole problem! Things like it might be possible for God to set people on fire to make them pay for their sins. IMO, it's only because of sin that we would even consider an idea like this.

Quote:

Is it maybe a cast that God was there.

I don't understand this.

Quote:

But the spiritual connection had been broken?

Yes, sin causes a breaking of the spiritual connection, which caused Jesus to feel abandoned, even though God had done the opposite, and left heaven, to be present with His Son. It's rather ironic, isn't it, that at the very moment Jesus felt abandoned, God was actually closer to Him than He ever had been. It's like that footprints story (I assume you know it, about their only being one pair of footprints at the most difficult moments).

Quote:

So Jesus lost that connection with God and was forsaken.

Jesus was not forsaken! Jesus *felt* forsaken. There's a big difference!

What then do you make of this my friend:

But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. It was the hiding of His Father's face--a sense that His own dear Father had forsaken Him--which brought despair. {2MCP 514.5}

The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness. He had not one ray of light to brighten the future. And He was struggling with the power of Satan, who was declaring that he had Christ in his power, that he was superior in strength to the Son of God, that the Father had disowned His Son, and that He was no longer in the favor of God any more than himself. If He was indeed still in favor with God, why need He die? God could save Him from death.--2T 214 (1869). {2MCP 515.1}

[pnattmbtc]

My own view is that we are always better off simply accepting the plain language of the Bible.

[pnattmbtc]

What then do you make of this my friend:

But bodily pain was but a small part of the agony of God's dear Son. The sins of the world were upon Him, also the sense of His Father's wrath as He suffered the penalty of the law transgressed. It was these that crushed His divine soul. It was the hiding of His Father's face--a sense that His own dear Father had forsaken Him--which brought despair. {2MCP 514.5}

The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realized and keenly felt by the innocent, suffering Man of Calvary. He was oppressed by the powers of darkness. He had not one ray of light to brighten the future. And He was struggling with the power of Satan, who was declaring that he had Christ in his power, that he was superior in strength to the Son of God, that the Father had disowned His Son, and that He was no longer in the favor of God any more than himself. If He was indeed still in favor with God, why need He die? God could save Him from death.--2T 214 (1869). {2MCP 515.1}

First of all, it seems clear that the interpretation I'm suggesting is the only possible way to avoid a contradiction. That God didn't forsake Christ is clear: He left heaven to be with His Son at the cross. In Christ's greatest hour of need, God was right there with Him. God was crucified with Christ. And we, in our greatest need, can take great comfort in this, knowing that as God did not forsake Christ, neither will He forsake us.

Regarding the quotes, the first one speaks of the "sense" of His Father's rather. The second one says the separate that *sin* makes was "realized" and "felt" by Christ, which is just what I've been saying. Christ felt abandoned. This is what sin does to one; it makes one feel abandoned by God.

God didn't change. He was as good as always. He loved His Son as much as always. What changed was the effect that bearing our sins had on Christ.

[Guest]

This is the effect of sin. It causes one to feel that God has abandoned you, even though God doesn't do that. It causes us to believe things about God which aren't true. This is our whole problem! Things like it might be possible for God to set people on fire to make them pay for their sins. IMO, it's only because of sin that we would even consider an idea like this.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

We need to consider all of what Scripture has to say on a subject.

Indeed. Just as we need to consider all that Ellen White wrote on the subject.

The underlined may be true for in depth understanding of some particular subject, not vital to one's salvation. However I take exception to the narrowness of the conclusion for the sake of those who might be reading this in numerous places on the globe, who have little or no ability to access those writings.

Even Ellen White pointed out that all that is needed for salvation can be found in the Scripture. And that may have some message to carry about the importance of understanding of this particular subject, as to whether God did such and such or satan was a tool used by God.

I'm of the opinion that anything less than the Truth adds confusion to anyone's understanding of the love of God for His creation. However I also do not believe a full knowledge of the Truth is necessary to be saved.

And maybe because some are of the opinion their salvation is jeopardized by a lack of understanding, or even believe that true of someone else they wish to be in heaven beside themselves, they are willing to fight tooth and nail to hold onto something, while only God knows the whole story.

"[Let your] love be sincere (a real thing); hate what is evil [loathe all ungodliness, turn in horror from wickedness], but hold fast to that which is good." Romans 12:9 AMP brackets parenthesis theirs LHC

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

But God here withdrew Himself from the righteous....

Your thoughts?

Mark

I doubt in our fallen condition, we can anywhere come near understanding the whole truth about why God would withdraw from the righteous, but in Jesus case, Jesus died the second death for all those who deserved that death but would be able to receive Jesus as their substitute if He succeeded in satisfying that need, which He did, of course.

While Jesus was left to the brutality of the adversary, and Jesus could not see His Father from that position, is there some evidence that the Father was no where about and did not closely observe all that was happening to His Son? Jesus' words, "Why have You forsaken Me?", was based upon His inability to see through the trial, to triumph, and not upon the reality of His Father drawing apart from an eternal relationship with His only Begotten.

"...let the enemy persecute my soul and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honor in the dust. Selah"Psalm 7:5 21st Century KJV

"Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again."

John 10:17 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

It seems that fire is still being called down from heaven when one disagrees.

That is deeply concerning.

Mark

And rightfully so, for their salvation's sake, and I trust not your own. Although in their case even that can be remedied.

"And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elijah did?"

But He turned and rebuked them and said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

For the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went to another village."

Luke 9:54-56 21st Century KJV

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."Revelation 3:19 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

And this is where we go wrong if we continue to take one principle and beat every other principle to death with it.

We have to replace Fire from Heaven/Angels of God with:

Volcano

Mark

Ahhh, frustrations, frustrations!

[Guest]

It was not bodily suffering which so quickly ended the life of Christ upon the cross. It was the crushing weight of the sins of the world, and a sense of His Father's wrath. The Father's glory and sustaining presence had left Him, and despair pressed its crushing weight of darkness upon Him and forced from His pale and quivering lips the anguished cry: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" {2T 209.1}

[LifeHiscost]

I believe Satan can destroy body and soul. I don't believe the soul to be some spirit floating around somewhere.

As to the 2nd sentence, agreed. As to the 1st, it explains why you could be drawing some conclusions based on fear.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Matthew 10:28 NKJV

If that capacity is left up to satan, then we have great reason to fear. If it is left up to our Father, we have every reason to have hope.

"For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village."Luke 9:56 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

We should keep in mind that sin/Satan are the killers, not God.

I can see where you would loath seeing God in the position as a killer. However it does appear to reveal logic that when God's loyal followers are threatened, and constantly so if there were an eternally burning hell, to remove that threat for the sake of His own reveals a Savior, despite an enemy who threatens.

And if there be a scene where the wicked are responsible for the final extinction of the lesser evil, somewhere in the end there remains the strongest of the wicked who remains alive and refuses to die unless a Greater Power insures His extinction. Unless, of course, he loses all hope and falls on his own sword.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

It is unfortunate that we as a people have not learned to overcome this simple lack of being able to accept someone who does not agree.

Time and time again I have seen this in life.

When someone rejects someones point of view, the person can think they are being rejected.

I myself have to deal with this tempation.

And that is exactly what it is.

And the behaviour is based in self.

But it often hides behind the guise of "holiness", or "rebuking in the Lord".

It took me a while to learn to resist this particular temptation and I am probably not completely free from it yet.

I think as a people we need to remember:

Reading the prophet does not make one a prophet...

Mark :-)

Well thought out frustrations. If the truth were told probably not too many of us could not identify with the reality. Allowing individuals to be who they want to be and to think the way they wish to think is an art, or if you wish, a talent, not every one has at this point of time. And just about the time we think we have it, our Father lets us fall on our face just to remind us;

""I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in Me and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without Me ye can do nothing."

John 15:5 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[Dr. Rich]

Come on Richard, what you wrote from that author is nonsense and can't be true. Here is why: The story of Abraham offering his son as a sacrifice is enough to show that the Father is doing the same with His son--Jesus Christ.

Please show me anywhere in scripture where a little lamb died because of any sins being placed on it? Besides, the death of Jesus was not the Atonement sacrifice--it was the Passover sacrifice which was not for the sins of anyone. Check it out--yes please do!

When God told Adam that He would KILL (execute) him on the day he ate from the tree, God meant it! When Jesus stepped in to take the place of Adam, this had to mean that Jesus would be executed by His Father.

Satan is a spirit being and humans can't kill any spirit being! Only the Creator of a Human or Spirit being has the authority to destroy it--unless this authority has been given to the spirit being to do the destruction--as we see in the story of Job.

Yes, men can kill a fellow man--but this is not the ultimate destruction. And a Spirit Being other than the Creator does not have ANY authority to cause the ultimate destruction of humans either. Only the Creator can cause the second death--therefore, when Christ died the second death, only His Father could have done this.

[pnattmbtc]

This is the effect of sin. It causes one to feel that God has abandoned you, even though God doesn't do that. It causes us to believe things about God which aren't true. This is our whole problem! Things like it might be possible for God to set people on fire to make them pay for their sins. IMO, it's only because of sin that we would even consider an idea like this.

R:No it is not because of sin, but because of the plain teaching of the Bible and Ellen White.

I was expressing my opinion (IMO = "in my opinion") that it's only because of sin that we would even consider an idea like this. I understand it is your opinion that the Bible teaches that God will set people on fire to make them suffer. My opinion is that the Scripture teaches that:

1.God is just like Jesus Christ.

2.Jesus Christ would not set someone on fire to make them suffer for many hours or days.