Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[John317]

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

This is my understanding:

Sin cannot stand in the presence of love, pure Holy love, it is destroyed.

A spiritual destruction.

But also a physical destruction.

Very, very important point. This is often not taken into account.

[pnattmbtc]

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

This is my understanding:

Sin cannot stand in the presence of love, pure Holy love, it is destroyed.

A spiritual destruction.

But also a physical destruction.

Very, very important point. This is often not taken into account.

I like to think of it this way.

Gods personal presence permeates the whole of creation.

At this point it is held back from pervading sinful angels and humans.

When the judgement is over and justice comes, Gods presence will once again sweep into every tiny corner of the universe.

His Glory will be fully unveiled.

When that happens, sin which is directly opposed to His presence, will be destroyed.

All that is spiritually and physically attached to sin, will also be destroyed.

Then Christ will be all and in all...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107

If you read a bit further in this same quote, it's clear it's not speaking of physical fire, but of God's character.

Quote:

Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (ibid)

This is continuing the quote right from where you left off. It's clear this is speaking of the revelation God's character. Note in particular:

Quote:

The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God.

The light of the glory of God is Jesus Christ. Light = revealer. Glory = character.

Quote:

The glory of God is His character. While Moses was in the mount, earnestly interceding with God, he prayed, "I beseech thee, show me thy glory." In answer God declared, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." The glory of God--His character--was then revealed: "The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 33:18, 19; 34:6, 7). (God's Amazing Grace, 322_

Also please note that the same thing that gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked. It's not that God arbitrarily acts one way with one group, and another way with another group. God is Himself, which is love, and this gives life to one group and death to another, because of the choices each group has made. The DA 764 quote, which speaks of the glory of God destroying the wicked, says, "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." This is, again, God's character. God is love.

I agree, the Glory of God is His Love.

Consider this:

Gods love is so powerful, so awesome, it manifests itself at a physical as well as spiritual and emotional level.

I think we have to be careful to suggest that we can define "love" to an emotional or spiritual plane of existance.

I do not see the Glory of God as an "idealogical" value only, but as a physical manifestation.

Then, both points of view would be in harmony.

1. His Glory is His character of love.

2. That Glory manifests itself in the physical realm.

3. That Glory is destructive to sin, sin has nowhere else to go when faced with Gods unselfish Glory and is consumed.

I think this is the only safe interpretation.

Why?

Because we would have to ignore the descriptions of the physical reality of Gods Glory.

We would have to pass over those texts and statements that speak of this physical reality, we would have to place them in the realm of the "figure" or "parable", rather than just accept them as they are by faith.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Very, very important point. This is often not taken into account.

As sda's, we believe the human being is indivisible, so we don't have a concept of being able to destroy a man's spirit without destroying him physically, so spiritual destruction has to involve physical destruction. However, I don't understand how spiritual destruction would result in physically being set on fire.

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, are you saying that God is literally fire? Or that God's character sets people on fire? Or neither?

[Gail]

Mark, are you saying that God is literally fire? Or that God's character sets people on fire? Or neither?

He's a consuming fire- Hebrews 12:29

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Me:God will not set people on fire for many hours or days at a time in order to cause them excruciating pain in the name of justice. Such an idea is totally foreign to God's character, and contrary to all that Jesus Christ revealed of the Father. I'm setting these out as ideas that all who believe "God does not destroy" would agree to.

J:I see a major problem with this.

First, Ellen White, quoting an angel of God, says clearly that "the saints, in unison Jesus, sit in judgment, and METE OUT to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, AND THAT WHICH THEY MUST RECEIVE AT THE EXECUTION OF THE JUDGMENT IS SET OFF AGAINST THEIR NAMES." EW 52, 53.

I understand this to mean the evidence will be examined, and the righteous will see what the wicked will suffer when they are resurrected. I don't understand this to be speaking of an arbitrary punishment imposed against the wicked.

Could you explain what you mean when you say "the righteous will SEE what the wicked will suffer"? Do you mean that the righteous will simply become aware of how the wicked will suffer?

My understanding of Ellen White's statement is that the righteous "mete out" the punishment that the wicked MUST receive. That is what she clearly says, I believe. "Mete out" means to dispense or sentence to a particular punishment.

Let's look carefully at what Ellen White says.

1) The saints, in unison with Jesus, METE out that which the wicked MUST receive at the execution of the judgment.

This is clearly talking about decisions on the part of the saints and Jesus as to the punishment. Obviously not that the wicked will be punished but what degree of punishment the wicked receive.

2) The wicked MUST receive according to their deeds. See Rev. 22: 12. Jesus repays according to the deeds done in the body.

Do you agree that the sentence of eternal death is pronounced by God and that this is a "punishment"?

[Twilight]

Mark, are you saying that God is literally fire? Or that God's character sets people on fire? Or neither?

Gods presence is physically and spiritually destructive to sin is my belief. :-)

As Gail said, our God is a consuming fire...

Mark :-)

[Gail]

And that is besides the angels that we get to judge- 1 Cor.6:3

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Secondly, if the above is not done-- and if the wicked suffer in some way that is completely arbitrary, such as being beaten to death, etc.--

or set on fire?

I don't believe that God's destruction of the wicked by fire, as the Bible depicts it, is arbitrary. God does nothing arbitrarily, and we can trust His decisions to be just and merciful. We could not, however, trust the wicked. God's judgment is according to law and according to love. Since He knows all things and is totally unselfish, we can be sure God would not be acting arbitrarily. I would trust Him to deal with my loved ones in a loving, kind way, whether that means saving them or destroying them. After all, God loves us far more than we love ourselves.

[John317]

And that is besides the angels that we get to judge- 1 Cor.6:3

Yes, I agree. The saints, in unison with Jesus, judge both the wicked angels and those who have tragically chosen to follow Satan.

It should be emphasized that there is no sense of joy in this process of judgment or in the sentence and execution of the sentence. I'm positive that there will be a lot of sadness during the 1000 years and at the end. God certainly derives no pleasure from the death of the wicked, and neither will the saints. They will all know people who are lost.

The only joy will be because the universe will once again be completely at peace and in harmony with God.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, you *do* believe that God is arbitrarily punishing the wicked, according to Webster's primary definition. Please take a close look at that definition.

[pnattmbtc]

I don't believe this is an arbitrary action on their part. I believe their suffering is caused by their sin. DA 764 explains that God will give them up to the result of their choice. *Their* choice. They suffer because of what *they* have chosen. Not what God or someone else chooses. If we chose, they wouldn't suffer at all. If you, God forbid, had a loved one (spouse, child, close friend), you would look over their lives, and sentence your spouse, child, friend to be set on fire for 35 hours? You could to that?

My apologies if I'm misrepresenting your view (I hope I am!). That's not my intention, but this is what I'm hearing you say.

Please address this, John317. I'm interested in your thoughts here.

[pnattmbtc]

After all, God loves us far more than we love ourselves.

Or, more to the point, than we love our loved ones. Would we set them on fire to punish them?

I'd really like to understand this point better. I don't want to be misrepresenting anyone's idea, but I'm getting conflicting ideas as to what is being said in regards to the wicked being set on fire. Is it:

1.The wicked spontaneously erupt into flames in God's presence, and they burn like a torch.

2.God zaps them from heaven with something akin to a lightening bolt that sets them on fire, and they burn like a torch.

3.God casts them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava.

The job of the righteous is to decide how long they should be shrieking in agony will either burning like a torch, or swimming in molten lava. And this is justice?

I really hope I'm missing something here, but it 1, 2, or 3 the idea being presented? Or is it something else?

Looking for feedback please. How are the wicked set on fire?

[skyblue888]

We do know that during the 1000 years the saints will judge the fallen angels and the unsaved of all ages. If we are to understand how their punishment is going to be executed we cannot afford to forget the principles of God's dealing with sin which are ever the same. See G.C.343. We do know that God will leave them to themselves to reap that which they have sown. There will be those among the unsaved who will be less guilty than others and who will only suffer a very short time as compared to others who will suffer longer and others much longer, and, of course, Satan will suffer the longest. But this is not to say that God Himself will be the One to turn the heat on or to control it according to each individual.

The question immediately arises as to how the wicked could suffer exactly according to their desserts unless some intelligence calculates the measure of their individual punishments and so controls events that they will be kept alive until the full punishment has been exacted. On the surface, this would seem to be impossible. Therefore it is considered that God, being the only one with the power to either estimate the deserved chastisement or to control its administration, must surely be the one who executes the sinners in the end.

Anyone who understands and accepts the principles of God's dealing with sin will recognize that there must be another answer. Perhaps it has not yet been revealed. This should not drive us to the conclusion that inasmuch as the real answer is wanting, we have to accept another. One thing must be very clear and it is that God does not execute the sinner, now, or in the past, or ever. It is sin which does that. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

To understand how sin can do this and selectively punish one more than another, requires knowledge of laws which as yet are beyond our ken. One thing we do know however, is that the more sinful a person is, the more desperately he struggles to live in the face of death. The true child of God does not fight the Grim Reaper. He knows that his time has come and that his life is safe in the hands of God. But not so with the rebel against God's laws and government. He resists with all the power of his soul, and is able to prolong his life beyond its natural span.

No one has ben so great a sinner as Satan, and no one will fight the inroads of death with greater determination than he. Thus he will prolong his life far beyond that point where he would have died if he had resigned himself to his fate. In so doing he will extend his suffering until he has suffered for all the sins he has committed and cause others to commit.

Finally it will be all over and the fire which had consumed the wicked will burn up the rubbish and purify the earth.

The deadly experiment will be ended and it will be demonstrated eternally that through it all, God did not change. When sin entered it changed angels, men, the animals, and the operations of nature, but it did not change God. Nothing was introduced into His way after the coming of sin which was not there before. He never destroyed before sin entered, never executed, never punished, and never forced. The entry of sin did not cause Him to begin doing any of these things in order to solve the problems sin imposed upon Him.

Satan and evil angels did their utmost to provoke Him to anger and arise to sweep away the rebellious inhabitants of the earth, but He would not be provoked, angered, insulted, or hurt. He emerges from the whole miserable test as immaculate as He entered it. Satan has not been able to sustain a single point against Him and it is shown that the way of the cross--the power of self-sacrificing love, which serves, no matter what the cost to the server--is stronger than all the ways of force combined.

sky

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

God will not set people on fire for many hours or days at a time in order to cause them excruciating pain in the name of justice. Such an idea is totally foreign to God's character, and contrary to all that Jesus Christ revealed of the Father. I'm setting these out as ideas that all who believe "God does not destroy" would agree to.

I see a major problem with this.

First, Ellen White, quoting an angel of God, says clearly that "the saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and METE OUT to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, AND THAT WHICH THEY MUST RECEIVE AT THE EXECUTION OF THE JUDGMENT IS SET OFF AGAINST THEIR NAMES." EW 52, 53. She says this will be the work of the saints with Jesus during the 1000 years. The saints come to this decision about each individual after a close examination of his/her life. The intention, obviously, is that each person receive "according to the deeds done in the body."

Secondly, if the above is not done-- and if the wicked suffer in some way that is completely arbitrary, such as being beaten to death, etc.-- it would mean that many of the unsaved would suffer far more than they deserve. For instance, a woman or child might be murdered by a raging mob by being torn limb from limb when that kind of death would not be "according to the deeds done in the body." On the other hand, someone who was a very evil person might simply blow his own brains out and die quickly and virtually painlessly. Do you see the problem?

If Ellen White-- and the Bible-- are right, the lost will only suffer exactly the punishment they deserve, and no more. However, if people are murdered by humans, many will suffer far more than they deserve, and others would suffer far less than they deserve. This would not be justice. A raging mob of evil people is not interested in justice. Some people there will enjoy giving pain and suffering before they themselves are murdered.

Which would "mete out" justice-- a loving, all-knowing God who sacrificed Himself to save humanity and knows the human heart, and who makes the decision in unison with "the saints," or a mob of wicked men and women inspired by Satan?

Thirdly, if Ellen White does not mean that the amount of suffering by each lost person is decided by saints in unison with Jesus, what does she mean? What is signified by her words in EW 52, 53?

Certainly she does NOT mean that the saints decide that the wicked are lost and will die. For that is already a foregone conclusion at the very beginning of the 1000 years, because the wicked are not in the resurrection of the righteous; and anyone not in the first resurrection is completely lost. Therefore, the only thing left to be determined during the 1000 years-- in order that justice be done--is how much the lost will suffer, or be punished, for their sins.

Fourthly, only God can guarantee that the wicked are punished according to the deeds done in the body. It does no good for the saints with Jesus to decide how much the wicked shall suffer, if their manner of death, and the length and intensity of their suffering, is left up to the wicked themselves. Therefore justice is only fulfilled in the punishment of the wicked if God is the one who destroys the wicked, just as the Bible and Ellen White say He will. As she says, "some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days." GC 673.

I submit that the decision as to who is destroyed quickly and who suffers many days, is determined by the saints in unison with Jesus during the 1000 years. This is the only way to assure that justice is done.

Amen

[skyblue888]

It is obvious that this subject is getting the attention of both good and evil angels. There is a war going on here between light on one hand and darkness on the other. Who is speaking the truth and who is speaking a lie?

In all of this, let us keep in mind that "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

Just ask yourself the question, What is the traditional view and you will know that that is the wrong conception of God's character.

So what is the traditional view?

sky

[Guest]

Here she is not talking about what we are quibbling over. She is talking about the origin of sin. You are trying to apply it to the final destruction at the end, but she is not referring to that. Here is the whole quote.

To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. Before the entrance of evil there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator's will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. {GC 492, 493}

Also She is mainly referring to the conception that the world has, not the church.

[Gail]

Sky, I think that everything that happens or is said anywhere captures the attention of both good and evil angels.

[skyblue888]

What is the traditional view Richard?

[skyblue888]

Sky, I think that everything that happens or is said anywhere captures the attention of both good and evil angels.

Yes Gail, but especially this topic and that of the necessity of appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves.

sky

[skyblue888]

What is the traditional view?

anyone

[Guest]

Here she is not talking about what we are quibbling over. She is talking about the origin of sin. You are trying to apply it to the final destruction at the end, but she is not referring to that. Here is the whole quote.

To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. Before the entrance of evil there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator's will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. {GC 492, 493}

Also She is mainly referring to the conception that the world has, not the church.

[skyblue888]

What is the traditional view concerning the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin?

what do tradition and misinterpretation teach regarding these subjects which has obscured the teaching of the Bible?

sky