Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Is the "permissive tense" used as regards the Flood, the destruction of Sodom, or the events described in Numbers 25: 1-18?

Let's look at Numbers 25:

1) The Lord's anger was aroused against Israel. v. 3

2) The Lord ordered Moses to hang ["impale"- NRSV'] the offenders "out in the sun so that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel." v. 4.

3) Phinehas killed a man and a Midianite woman, and this stopped the plague. vv. 6-8.

4) 24, 000 people died in the plague which was due to God's anger at the immorality of the people. vv. 3, 8, 9.

5) The Lord rewarded Phinehas for his killing of the man and the Midianite woman. vv. 10-13.

6) The Lord ordered Moses and the Israelites to harass and attack the Midianites. vv. 16-18. Please compare Judges 7: 24, 25 for an instance of how this was put into effect.

How does the concept of "the permissive tense" help us understand the above examples?

before we tackle that could you answer this, first?

so, my brother, how would you explain to a predestinarian this verse:

Quote:

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

if we are taking the bible as it reads we cant fault predestinarians for doing so also.

nor can we fault those who see these texts and stay on the surface without looking deeper.

Quote:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

does the smoke of their torment ascend up for ever and ever, or is this symbolic of something?

The latter verses, Rev. 14: 11 and Exodus 4: 21, have been analyzed and commented on many times, and referring to them again does not help us with Numbers 25.

If we say that God NEVER has destroyed anyone and never will destroy anyone, how do we explain Numbers 25?

Did God tell Moses to kill Baal worshippers or not? And did God ever tell Israelites to kill Midianites?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

_________________________________________________________________

You and Mark and Richard are having the same problem understanding how this could be. [/quote']

The problem I'm having is that I see both Bible and SOP evidence that the wicked are destroyed by fire from God.

For instance, please explain what Ellen White says on GC 672, 673-- that Satan is still alive after everyone else is dead and that fire from God out of heaven destroys the wicked. How do you understand this?

[John317]

I still maintain that we should believe the word of God which says that Satan will fall and die at the hand of aliens after the 1000 years instead of trying to make sure we understand things that the Lord has not revealed to us yet before we believe the word implicitly.

I do believe the word of God implicitly. It says many times that God destroyed people; that He killed (not murdered) people; and that He will send fire from heaven to destroy the wicked. It says the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's second coming.

While I do believe that Ezekiel 28: 12-19 is referring also to Satan, chapter 28: 1-10 is primarily a reference to the prince of Tyre. There is much in these verses that cannot possibly be referring to Satan. For instance, Satan is not "in the midst of the seas," nor is Satan "a man" (v2), and Satan never gained riches by his wisdom, or gained gold and silver in his treasuries (v. 4), nor did he increase his riches through trade. These are obvious descriptions of the prince of Tyre, not Satan. Chapter 26 shows how God brought enemies against Tyre, who attacked it with weapons "in the midst of the sea."

Parts of these verses do refer to Satan, but other parts obviously do not apply to him. We have the same kind of situation in Prov. 8, which some try to apply to Christ in a way that would show the pre-existent Christ was created or had a beginning.

[John317]

Please help me with Numbers 25. Given your "principle," how how you view and understand these verses?

1) The Lord's anger was aroused against Israel. v. 3

2) The Lord ordered Moses to hang ["impale"- NRSV] the offenders "out in the sun so that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel." v. 4.

3) Phinehas killed a man and a Midianite woman, and this stopped the plague. vv. 6-8.

4) 24, 000 people died in the plague which was due to God's anger at the immorality of the people. vv. 3, 8, 9.

5) The Lord rewarded Phinehas for his killing of the man and the Midianite woman. vv. 10-13.

6) The Lord ordered Moses and the Israelites to harass and attack the Midianites. vv. 16-18. Please compare Judges 7: 24, 25 for an instance of how this was put into effect.

Did God tell the Israelites to kill Midianites, etc.?

[teresaq]

what basis do you have for that? what kind of "spirit being"? is he immortal? just because we cant see him does not mean that he is not killable. nor does that mean man would not be able to kill him with the weapons we have invented and the lost will construct after the third advent.

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Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence..... {PP 99.3}

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I believe that GC 671 is talking about people attacking other people, not spirit-beings.

in spite of

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Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

this very clear statement? and this one of more authority?

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Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

with the full agreement of ellen white who God saw fit to instruct? notice the verse does not say the humans will turn on them with their bare hands but with weapons.

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Check out GC 673 where it speaks of "the fire of destruction." Particularly pay attention to the first full paragraph of that page as well as the last paragraph on page 672. Ellen White states clearly that "fire comes down from God out of heaven" and that "the earth's surface seems one molten mass-- a vast, seething lake of fire."

She does not say that the wicked kill each other off or that they kill Satan. Satan is still alive long after everyone else is dead. He dies in the lake of fire, not at the hands of human beings.[/quote']this has already been addressed but the possibility appears to have been rejected outright. we have already invented and discarded the atomic bomb, which caused a slow death for many of hiroshima, in favor of nuclear weapons which can still cause a very slow death. satan and the antediluvians are of much hardier stock than we are, and so yes, they could quite easily last much longer than we of succeeding generations. having lived so much longer they would naturally be guilty of far more than those whove lived much shorter lives.

there is a lake of fire that covers the earth and cleanses and purifies it of all its rubbish, but unless we are to believe the lost are raised with some sort of immortality, or some sort of "miracle" akin to the belief of those who believe in eternal torment, as the bible says, the wages of sin is death, not torment in flames.

[John317]

I believe we need to get our view from the Bible itself and not base it on preconceived notions. In other words, it's best to arrive at conclusions on the basis of inductive Bible study.

For instance, if we assume that Christ (God) is completely non-violent, and then assume that this means He would never destroy, we are allowing our preconceptions to shape our beliefs. It's better to examine the evidence before drawing such conclusions.

Do you believe that holy angels exercise destructive power at God's command? See GC 614: 2.

Acts 12: 23 says plainly that "an angel of the Lord struck" Herod so that he was eaten by worms and died.

Also, in Spiritual Gifts, vol. III, pages 223 and 224, Ellen White in clear language says two different times that "the angel of God" killed "the first born of Egypt."

This makes good sense because Exodus 12: 12, 13 says that God told Moses, "I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn... When I see the blood...."

Be sure to check out SG, vol. 3, pp. 223, 224. ".... the angel of God would be passing through the land of Egypt doing his dreadful work, slaying the first-born of man and the first-born of beast." "..... that fearful night when the angel of God should slay the first-born of the Egyptians."

See page 70 of the same volume for compelling evidence that Ellen White taught that God was the one who brought the flood on the earth and destroyed the wicked, just as the Bible itself plainly says. Satan himself feared for his own existence in the midst of the Flood. The entire chapter speaks of God's power as revealed in the destructive violence of the Flood, and not a word is said about Satan's power or that Satan did anything except fear for his own existence.

[Guest]

Amen

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe that humans will be the ones to destroy Satan?

Satan, of course, is a spirit being, not subject to attacks from physical beings such as people. For humans to be able to destroy Satan, God would have to change Satan's nature and make it possible for it to happen.

what basis do you have for that? what kind of "spirit being"? is he immortal? just because we cant see him does not mean that he is not killable. nor does that mean man would not be able to kill him with the weapons we have invented and the lost will construct after the third advent.

"Spirit-beings" are immaterial. That is, they are not physical beings as you and I are.

Of course Satan and his evil angels are not immortal.

Someone mentioned that Ezekiel 28: 7 refers to people destroying Satan with swords. I'm confident that you reject this plan. Nor do I believe there's evidence that Satan would be "killable" by any of mankind's inventions, including nuclear weapons.

[John317]

Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence..... {PP 99.3}

This quote does not appear to lend any credence to the notion that Satan caused the Flood. Besides the fact that both the Bible and Ellen White say plainly that God brought the Flood and destroyed the wicked, the additional fact that Satan was afraid for his own existence shows that he himself felt threatened by the power of God exhibited during the Flood.

"This rainbow was to evidence the fact to all generations that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth by a flood, because of their great wickedness." SG, vol III, p. 74.

Not a word or a hint anywhere that God allowed Satan to destroy the world by a flood. Compare page 70 of the same volume.

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JOHN3:17--: I believe that GC 671 is talking about people attacking other people, not spirit-beings.

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TERESAQ(SDA)--: in spite of Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2} this very clear statement?

Of course the wicked will fight each other, but it only demonstrates their evil characters.

What is the evidence that this is how Satan and the wicked meet their end-- at the hand of wicked men?

Jude 7 specifically refers to Sodom as an example of how the wicked will be finally destroyed, and of course we all know that the Sodomites did not die at the hands of man but of God.

Quote:

TERESAQ(SDA):-- there is a lake of fire that covers the earth and cleanses and purifies it of all its rubbish, but unless we are to believe the lost are raised with some sort of immortality, or some sort of "miracle" akin to the belief of those who believe in eternal torment, as the bible says, the wages of sin is death, not torment in flames.

Yes, of course, the wages of sin is eternal death, not eternal torment in flames. Yet not all die quickly but they are punished according to their deeds. See GC 673.

[John317]

Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. ... notice the verse does not say the humans will turn on them with their bare hands but with weapons.

Human weapons will do as little damage to Satan as human hands would do.

Angels are spirit creatures, not physical or material beings. As far as I know, humans have never made a weapon designed to destroy demons or spirits.

[John317]

Indeed that causes a lot of confusion. Makes Satan look like a saint when compared to God.

I don't think so at all. Helps to consider the Big Picture that we get from the whole Bible and the Conflict Series.

It's also important to remember that it is God who made the universe; that He gives us life; that He knows people's hearts and minds; that He is able to resurrect the dead; that He gave Himself to save humanity; and that He certainly has the right to destroy the wicked when He chooses. See Romans 9: 14-24.

Ellen White makes it very plain in Spiritual Gifts, vol III, pages 223, 224 that it was "the angel of God" who destroyed the first-born of Egypt.

[pnattmbtc]

This was a disappointing response. The post I wrote was a detailed post, which took some time to write out. Your response here doesn't consider the points I made.

Please give it some thought. I thought quite a bit as to how to best approach your questions, and that post is what came to mind. It's a meaty post, covering a number of important concepts.

We're dealing with different paradigms here. You and I are looking at things in a different way. Simply asking questions, "How do you explain this? How do you explain that?" etc., isn't going to get anywhere. There are hundreds of violent episodes in the Scriptures. Are we going to have to go through every one of them? Or can we discuss things in terms of the principles involved?

I don't mind going through some of the episodes with you, but, at the same time we do so, let's consider some of the underlying principles. That is, why you interpret things the way you do, and why I interpret things the way I do. I realize you think you do so because "that's what the Bible says," but there's more going on here than simply this.

For example, there is something within you which allows you to conceive of God setting people on fire in order to make them suffer. There's a verse in Scripture which says that God sent a lying spirit to deceive Ahab. If someone said this verse means that God is a liar, I imagine you would reject that interpretation out of hand, not simply on the basis of an examination of the text, but on the basis of God's character as well. That is, God does not lie; therefore the suggested interpretation of the text is not possible.

I reject the teaching that God will set people on fire for the purpose of making them suffer on a similar basis. For example, "cruelty is Satanic."

So, to summarize, what I'm asking you to do, as a favor, is to consider the broad points of the post I wrote, and respond to them. You don't have to respond to every individual point, but please respond to the major ones, such as that Jesus Christ revealed the Father, and all that man can know of God was revealed by Him.

I think this is a fair way of approaching things. At the same time your questions are being considered, and we're approaching the study as you would like to, my questions are addressed, and we can approach the study in a way I think is more effective.

Thanks in advance.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, as a brief answer to your Numbers question, it's really dealing with a different issue than if God Himself acts violently. In that episode, we're told that God ordered someone else to act violently, so the question is if God does that. One could also ask, if God Himself does not act violently, why would He order someone else to do so? But these are different questions.

I've come upon this thread just recently. Has this been discussed before, I'm wondering? That is, has the question of why God would command the Israelites to do things He wouldn't do Himself been considered?

Also, I'm wondering about the wisdom of considering explaining incidents which are very minor in comparison with the idea that God will set people on fire for hours or days at a time for the purpose of causing them excruciating pain. It seems like the latter is an issue which should be tackled first. Surely if a person believes God is capable of doing such a thing as this, that God would do the things attributed to Him in the OT would be no problem at all to believe.

There's a fundamental principle that needs to be considered to have any hope of correctly interpreting Scripture, which is a spiritual book. That is, in order to understand what the Bible says, we must know God, which includes knowing what He is like, knowing His character. Now that begs the question, "How do we know what God's character is?" The answer to this question is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the light of the glory of God. He is the revelation of God. All that we need to know, or can know, of God was revealed by Him while in the flesh. He must be the bedrock of our understanding of God's character. If we wish to rightly divide the word of truth, we must start with Christ, and understand Him and His teachings.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

This was a disappointing response. The post I wrote was a detailed post, which took some time to write out. Your response here doesn't consider the points I made.

Please give it some thought. I thought quite a bit as to how to best approach your questions, and that post is what came to mind. It's a meaty post, covering a number of important concepts.

I'll do as you ask here and write a full response to your post.

I believe that the only way to get at the truth of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy is to consider every verse and passage on a particular subject. The truth will harmonize with everything that God has revealed to us.

For instance, when it comes to the state of the dead, it's important to consider everything the Bible says. The same with salvation, the heavenly sanctuary, the Sabbath, Second Coming, God's law and the gospel, etc.

Therefore, in this case, if it's true that God doesn't destroy, we need to see if the Bible actually teaches that concept. If it does, there should be consistency and we should be able to harmonize everything in the Bible with it. If it doesn't, we need to find this out and make changes in our understanding to fit the Bible picture, not the other way round. Let the Bible speak plainly. Same with Ellen White's writings.

[John317]

John317, as a brief answer to your Numbers question, it's really dealing with a different issue than if God Himself acts violently.

Do you believe that God ever commanded His angels to act violently?

Quote:

In that episode, we're told that God ordered someone else to act violently, so the question is if God does that. One could also ask, if God Himself does not act violently, why would He order someone else to do so? But these are different questions.

I agree that these are different questions, but they are certainly related, and they're important questions to answer as we seek to understand the issue of the destruction of the wicked.

Did God tell the Israelites to kill the Baal worshippers mentioned in Numbers 25: 4?

If so, did God order the Israelites to do something that is a violation of God's law?

[skyblue888]

Yes John God did tell them to kill the Baal worshippers but He did it simply because in a Theocracy God is the Ruler not only in religious matters but in civil matters as well. And the command to kill was not a revelation of His character but of the fact that His professed people had chosen to elect the sword to defend themselves against their enemies, and there were plenty of those, and to resolve matters within the camp. So in His mercy the Lord gave instructions which were not in harmony with His perfect ways of dealing with rebellion and iniquity but according to man's ways but mixed with an element of divine mercy to their emenies.

Did that help at all?

sky

When God delivered them from Egypt, they were unarmed and they left unarmed. They allowed God to deliver them in righteousness. The Egyptian army was the most powerful on earth. But they didn't have to fight. But after they crossed the Red Sea they picked up the Egyptians weapons that had washed to shore and ever after they fought with the sword. If the Lord had abandoned them to the Amalekites they would have been blotted from the face of the earth. So they fought against the Amalekites with the Egyptian weapons and God gave them the victory but it was not God's perfect way of delievering them in righteousness.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

John317, as a brief answer to your Numbers question, it's really dealing with a different issue than if God Himself acts violently.

Do you believe that God ever commanded His angels to act violently?

Quote:

In that episode, we're told that God ordered someone else to act violently, so the question is if God does that. One could also ask, if God Himself does not act violently, why would He order someone else to do so? But these are different questions.

I agree that these are different questions, but they are certainly related, and they're important questions to answer as we seek to understand the issue of the destruction of the wicked.

Did God tell the Israelites to kill the Baal worshippers mentioned in Numbers 25: 4?

If so, did God order the Israelites to do something that is a violation of God's law?

they really should go under a different topic because they deal with other issues, tho i can see why some would see them as related.

why didnt God tell the people they couldnt have multiple wives and that they couldnt get divorced? why did He make provisions for such, in His sight, heinous sins?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

the vast majority of the world is also. that is one of the unifying beliefs of all religions.[/quote']

So, if God told you that He destroyed the wicked in the Flood, would you have a problem with Him?

no.

but the question is now getting into the personal instead of dealing with the issues, is it not? the issue to be addressed is whether God Himself would break His own law, His own character or not. it is not about peoples personal feelings on the question.

but since you asked let me ask you:

would you have a problem with Him if He told you He didnt?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John, a little while ago you gave us several passages from the Scriptures dealing with "the anger of the Lord" and other passages were produced which showed that Satan himself is "the anger of the Lord."

I agree that there are passages which show that God uses Satan to punish the wicked, just as He used the Babylonians. But that does not cover all the verses dealing with God's wrath. See, for instance, Romans 9: 22, 23.

i cant see God "using" anyone, for anything.

as i study the bible/sop i see God allowing us to suffer the natural consequences of our actions, which sometimes means giving us up to the god we want. if the devil then does with us as he pleases we cant blame God for that. it was our decision, our choice.

[skyblue888]

would you have a problem with Him if He told you He didnt?

__________________________________________________________

good question teresa,

It would seem that some of us or rather most of us who belong to the human race would want to see God exactly in that light, that He does destroy the impenitent in anger and that this is His justice. I think rather that the one who wants justice to be done in fierce anger, in wrath, is the great deceiver himself while attributing to God his own attributes. And he has the whole human race deceived. "Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

What is the reason for that? Because "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

Who is it who is first to make sure we are dealt with and punished the moment we sin? is it God or Satan?

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

before we tackle that could you answer this, first?

so, my brother, how would you explain to a predestinarian this verse:

Quote:

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

if we are taking the bible as it reads we cant fault predestinarians for doing so also.

nor can we fault those who see these texts and stay on the surface without looking deeper.

Quote:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

does the smoke of their torment ascend up for ever and ever, or is this symbolic of something?

The latter verses, Rev. 14: 11 and Exodus 4: 21, have been analyzed and commented on many times, and referring to them again does not help us with Numbers 25.

that isnt the question. the question is whether we are to take them as they read or not. :)

[teresaq]

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

what basis do you have for that? what kind of "spirit being"? is he immortal? just because we cant see him does not mean that he is not killable. nor does that mean man would not be able to kill him with the weapons we have invented and the lost will construct after the third advent.

[/quote']

"Spirit-beings" are immaterial. That is, they are not physical beings as you and I are.

whoa!! forgive my shock, but when exactly did seventh-day adventists take on this belief?!?!

or is it your own personal belief?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence..... {PP 99.3}

This quote does not appear to lend any credence to the notion that Satan caused the Flood.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

whoa!! forgive my shock, but when exactly did seventh-day adventists take on this belief?!?!

or is it your own personal belief?

This is not something I consider an adventist position. The angels are very much physical beings and excellent in strength.

"immaterial" hmmm

John, i think u will have to re-think this one! :)