Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[skyblue888]

Earlier we read these words: "Soon God will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer prevent the destroyer from doing his work." R & H Vol.3, 335.

Now when the Lord says He will no longer prevent Satan from doing his work, and that this means that He will give the command to the angels to no longer combat him in his efforts to destroy, then we are prepared to read the language of Revelation 16 with these quotes in mind so that we do not misunderstand or misterpret the language of Heaven.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Twilight:So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

Lutz:Statements like these introduce the issues with the English language.

This can be looked at from two different views. Gods presence literally kills them. Or Gods presence causes them much discomfort that they would want to die. Which seems to makes sense since at His coming the wicked call for the rocks to fall on them.

It could be argued that this is referring to Christ's second coming, and not the judgment, but the same principle is expressed in the following, which is speaking of the judgment:

Quote:

(Y)ears of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. (GC 543)

It's interesting that the same thought is expressed here, of the glory of God being a consuming fire. The glory of God is His character. So evidently anything that is God-like in character is very unpleasant for the wicked. She goes on to say that their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

At any rate, I see things along the lines you've laid out here.

In regards to what sky has been saying, I think these other statements, such as that the glory of God (which is His character) will destroy them, are foundational as well, and don't see any conflict between this idea and the idea that God is not to be looked upon as One who executes a sentence against transgressors. Especially in context, DA 764 is clearly expressing the same idea (note especially, "This (the destruction of the wicked) is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.")

______________________________________________________________________

Aand we have already seen from G.C.36 how Mrs. White says that the destruction of Jerusalem was the work of Satan but that Satan seeks to conceal that from us by attributing this destruction to God.

"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control."

Did u notice this? "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work."

Wow, it could not be any clearer, could it?

sky

[pnattmbtc]

And if it were symbolic, can you point out what the symbolism is of and why it's necessary for symbolism, in this case?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Me:sky, how is it that you are understanding the statement that the glory of God will destroy Satan and his followers?

sky:Just as Mrs. White says that the Jews in A.D.70 were destroyed by the brightness of His glory or by the brighteness of His coming. Are you familiar with that statement?

No. I'm familiar with the statement in DA 107, 108. What's the statement say?

Do you mean this one?

Quote:

But in that day, as in the time of Jerusalem's destruction, God's people will be delivered, "every one that shall be found written among the living." Christ has declared that he will come the second time, to gather his faithful ones to himself: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.] Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. (GC 37)

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The destruction at the end is out of character for God. It is the only time his wrath is poured out without mixture. That's why is is strange for him. All of your quotes apply to everyday life.

God never changes Richard. So His wrath is ever the same. This time though, He doesn't use His power to restrain the wicked. They are left to their own desires.

I'm not sure, are you familiar with the Wrath of God? I know many aren't and assume its God blowing people up with fury.

A study of Romans 1:18-28 would reveal that God gives them up to their own desires. That is the wrath of God.

Why do you think it is called his strange act? It's because he's never done it before.

And yes the cup will be full at the end of probation, but that is not when he pours it out without mixture.

[pnattmbtc]

Of course God's never done it before. There's never been a judgment before.

[Guest]

He's been angry before. But his anger has always been mixed with mercy in the past.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

God never changes Richard. So His wrath is ever the same. This time though' date=' He doesn't use His power to restrain the wicked. They are left to their own desires.

I'm not sure, are you familiar with the Wrath of God? I know many aren't and assume its God blowing people up with fury.

A study of Romans 1:18-28 would reveal that God gives them up to their own desires. That is the wrath of God.[/quote']

Why do you think it is called his strange act? It's because he's never done it before...

sure could of fooled me!! :smile:

doesnt look that "strange" to me considering the flood, sodom and gomorrah, etc.....

[Guest]

Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent... CET 187.4}

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. {GC88 605.1}

God means just what He says. Man has interposed between God and the people, and the Lord has sent forth the third angel with the message: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Verses 9, 10. {8T 94.3}

[Guest]

God means just what He says. Man has interposed between God and the people, and the Lord has sent forth the third angel with the message: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Verses 9, 10. {8T 94.3}

[teresaq]

Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent... CET 187.4}

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. {GC88 605.1}

God means just what He says. Man has interposed between God and the people, and the Lord has sent forth the third angel with the message: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Verses 9, 10. {8T94.3}

seems to me thats pretty much what happened in the flood, sodom and gomorrah, etc. how do you see it as different?

[teresaq]

God means just what He says. Man has interposed between God and the people, and the Lord has sent forth the third angel with the message: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Verses 9, 10. {8T 94.3}

yes, and this is how it happens:Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

* I have been studying this issue since 1983 and I am telling you there is much more evidence to support that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression.

A Jehovahs witness could make the same claim about the divinity of Christ and state they have been studying it for over 50 years.

Would that mean we should accept it?

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

The destruction at the end is out of character for God. It is the only time his wrath is poured out without mixture. That's why is is strange for him. All of your quotes apply to everyday life.

Which is my understanding.

Blessings!

[John317]

The prophets of God use such language as "God destroyed," "the Lord slew," "Fire came down from God," "I (God) will destroy," etc.

Why not stay with the language of the Bible?

[Guest]

That's excactly right. Ellen White uses that language in a lot of places too.

[Guest]

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

[Guest]

God did not have his prophets to write in such a way that it needed to be refuted in order to get to the truth.

[John317]

Yes, it seems to me to be an advantage to use the same language and concepts that the prophets of God always used in describing the punishment of the wicked.

If all the prophets were mistaken in their perceptions of what they saw in vision, or in what God told them, what else might they have been mistaken about?!!

Is it possible that if alive today, God's prophets would say that they were in error, and that the wicked-- not God-- actually destroy Satan and afterwards they all voluntarily jump into a lake of fire?

[John317]

..... We're also told that the judgment is for the benefit of the wicked themselves, which I think is a rather extraordinary statement that is seldom commented upon. It's usually thought of as being something done to them against their will, hardly something that could be described as for their own benefit.

What "judgment"-- investigative judgment or executive judgment?

The "investigative judgment" only examines the lives of the those whose names have been written in the book of life. That judgment is going on now and will continue until just before the Second Coming.

Those who have never put their faith in God or in Christ aren't judged until after the Second Coming of Christ.

I believe that both the investigative, or pre-advent, judgment, and the executive judgment, are for the benefit of everyone in the entire universe, including the wicked. But how do you understand "the judgment" benefits the wicked?

[LifeHiscost]

A study of Romans 1:18-28 would reveal that God gives them up to their own desires. That is the wrath of God.

It is understood from this quarter, from the explanations given, that the wicked will at last turn on each other with whatever strength they have, supposedly with intent to destroy each other. The amount of time spent in this wrath against one another, I suppose would be longer for the stronger as they overpowered the weak. The wrath of all in the battle would continue to gravitate toward the stronger as the weaker were vanquished, until at last there are only two of the strongest left on the field of battle, facing each other with the last ounce of strength that they have, in an effort to be the final victor.

Now since it is recognized by some that all of the wicked will be destroyed by their own wickedness and the wickedness of other wicked, will these last two strike a fatal blow simultaneously, thus ending the existence of those who do wickedly. Or perhaps one of the two has an explosive instrument that when set into operation, explodes and destroys both, perhaps inadvertently.

If bringing the battle down to one on one seems too simplistic, just extend the principle of effort to a battlefield in which the instruments of destruction are huge enough so that when one destructive device is set into operation, it inadvertently overwhelms both operations of battle, thus ending the final effort at warfare while extinguishing the life of the last wicked individual.

Giving that a little thought makes me realize that's exactly the direction the world's headed now. To be interrupted by the second coming of Jesus.

Could that perhaps mean that at the second resurrection the wicked will just continue in warfare where they left off at the second coming of Christ? Adding of course, the multitudes who rise in the second resurrection.

Just in case anyone would suggest any logic in this scenario, it would be necessary to factor in the symbolic statue in the book of Daniel, in which king Nebuchadnezzar saw the end of history as we know it, described by Daniel as ending with a stone, cut out without human hands, crushing all the nations then in existence and replacing them with the kingdom of God, which will last forever.

"This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." Daniel 2:32-25 NKJV

The underlined above indicates a work done without human intervention.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Absolutely NO excuse.

As would be corroborative evidence found in the Scripture.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse," Romans 1:20 NKJV

Blessings!

[skyblue888]

Yes, it seems to me to be an advantage to use the same language and concepts that the prophets of God always used in describing the punishment of the wicked.

If all the prophets were mistaken in their perceptions of what they saw in vision, or in what God told them, what else might they have been mistaken about?!!

Is it possible that if alive today, God's prophets would say that they were in error, and that the wicked-- not God-- actually destroy Satan and afterwards they all voluntarily jump into a lake of fire?

John, the prophets were not in error. Far from it. The language of the Bible is the language of Heaven which is perfectly understood by the angels. At the time of the flood the angels heard the voice of Him who is infinite in love and mercy say, "I will destory man whom I have created from the face of the earth." "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Gen.6:7,13.

The angles knew what these words meant. It meant that God would give them the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy the guilty antediluvians, that God would no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work just as it will happen when probation shall close.

This is the language of Heaven and the prophets used that language consistently and Mrs. White is no exception. She uses that language and she also explains it just as the Scriptures do.

In the book Patriarchs and Prophets the Holy Spirit uses what happened at the time of the flood as a type of what is going to take place when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men.

"Noah was shut in, and the rejecters of God's mercy were shut out... So when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men, before His coming in the clouds of Heaven, the door of mercy will be shut. Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy." P.P.98.

This is what happened at the time of the flood.

So nobody here is saying that the prophets of old were mistaken or in error when they use the language that they did to describe God's actions but this is the language of Heaven, the thoughts of God that are expressed and His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. Remember Isaiah 55:8,9?

God's ways of "sending a flood," "destroying men" or of "hardening their hearts" or "sending fire out of heaven upon them" are not the same as the ways of man or of Satan. I certainly hope so, don't you?

This reveals, once again, that even at the time of the flood God did not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He left the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap what they had sown. And they were left to the control of Satan as guilty men will be when Christ shall cease His intercession in the sanctuary above.

sky

[skyblue888]

And this is exactly what happened to Jerusalem in A.D.70.

The language of the Bible in Matt.22 is that of the King (God) was wrought "angry" with the Jews and He sent "His armies" (the Romans) to "burn up" their city (Jerusalem) and to kill those murderers.

This is the language of Heaven. Now, from the book The Great Controversy let us read this most enlightening commentary:

"The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." p.28.

"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

Notice how the Holy Spirit, in that statement, says that the destruction of Jerusalem was the work of Satan but that Satan seeks to conceal his own work by stating that the destruction of Jerusalem was the result of the direct decree of God!

"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." pp.35,36.

If there are statements in the SoP which explain the language of God we could not find a better place than in these two pages of The Great Controversy. These words establish for ever the principle that the judgments of God do not come out directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but that He leaves them to the malice and enmity of Satan, the leader they have chosen.

sky

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, it seems to me to be an advantage to use the same language and concepts that the prophets of God always used in describing the punishment of the wicked.

If all the prophets were mistaken in their perceptions of what they saw in vision, or in what God told them, what else might they have been mistaken about?!!

Is it possible that if alive today, God's prophets would say that they were in error, and that the wicked-- not God-- actually destroy Satan and afterwards they all voluntarily jump into a lake of fire?

John!!! The prophets were not in error. Far from it. The language of the Bible is the language of Heaven which is perfectly understood by the angels. At the time of the flood the angels heard the voice of Him who is infinite in love and mercy say, "I will destory man whom I have created from the face of the earth." "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Gen.6:7,13.

The angles knew what these words meant. It meant that God would give them the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy the guilty antediluvians, that God would no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work just as it will happen when probation shall close.

This is the language of Heaven and the prophets used that language consistently and Mrs. White is no exception. She uses that language and she also explains it just as the Scriptures do.

In the book Patriarchs and Prophets the Holy Spirit uses what happened at the time of the flood as a type of what is going to take place when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men.

"Noah was shut in, and the rejecters of God's mercy were shut out... So when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men, before His coming in the clouds of Heaven, the door of mercy will be shut. Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy." P.P.98.

This is what happened at the time of the flood.

So nobody here is saying that the prophets of old were mistaken or in error when they use the language that they did to describe God's actions but this is the language of Heaven, the thoughts of God that are expressed and His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. Remember Isaiah 55:8,9?

God's ways of "sending a flood," "destroying men" or of "hardening their hearts" or "sending fire out of heaven upon them" are not the same as the ways of man or of Satan. I certainly hope so, don't you?

This reveals, once again, that even at the time of the flood God did not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the setence against transgression. He left the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap what they had sown. And they were left to the control of Satan as guilty men will be when Christ shall cease His intercession in the sanctuary above.

sky