Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding post #277877 (teresaq), nice post!

[Lutz13]

One can state truth in different ways. For example, one can do so while being charitable to one who has a different point of view.

Consider for a moment the character of the One whom you are presenting. Your argument is that it would be contrary to God's character to destroy, isn't it? That He's like Jesus Christ was, in the flesh, who fully revealed the Father? Who was kind and gentle with all He met, never using force, who voice had tears in it in the few times He was constrained to speak strongly?

It this is our view of God, it behooves us to treat others in according to our view of God, whom we believe doesn't use force.

Amen brother, something we all need to keep in mind.

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."(Matthew 5:5)

[Guest]

well, i, for one, am very disappointed and discouraged in the feelings i have much of the time.

some would call it "righteous indignation" and at one time i did also. now i call it demonic.

i would give anything to have those "tears in (my) voice" when responding.

Do you think you have demons?

[pnattmbtc]

She didn't say she had demons, but that being unkind in the name of "righteous indignation" is demonic, or Satanic. I'm putting words in her mouth, but 99 and 44/100% sure she'll agree.

[Guest]

Oh, ok

[teresaq]

She didn't say she had demons, but that being unkind in the name of "righteous indignation" is demonic, or Satanic. I'm putting words in her mouth, but 99 and 44/100% sure she'll agree.

you should have stated 100%. cause you are dead-on as to what i meant.

Lord, it feels good to be read accurately! being misread kills the soul, little by little. no lie.

tis murder as surely as being poisoned in small doses.

[Guest]

Didn't mean to poison you.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

the fundamental beliefs are but an outline, and sky is not at odds with our pioneers.

Let's assume for the sake of the discussion that God has never taken the life of any human being and never will.

With that view in mind, please explain what happened in the following verses, particularly the ones in bold type, taken primarily from the first four books of the Bible. What do the verses say?

1) Gen. 6: 7, 13; 7: 4. The Flood

2) Ge. 18: 23, 28, 31; 19: 22, 24, 25, 29. (Compare Luke 17: 29; 2 Peter 2: 4, 6; Jude 7.) Destruction of Sodom.

3) Ex. 14: 26-31; 15: 19, 21. The death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea.

4) Ex. 22: 18. God ordered the killing of witches.

5) Ex. 22: 19. God ordered the killing of people who have sex with animals.

6) Ex. 31: 14; 35: 2. God ordered the killing of anyone who profaned the Sabbath.

7) Ex. 32: 27, 28. God ordered Moses to have about 3, 000 men killed.

8) Lev. 10: 1, 2. Deaths of Nadab and Abihu.

9) Lev. 24: 17. Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.

10) Numbers 11: 33. The Lord struck the people with a very great plague. See "wrath."

11) Numbers 15: 32-36. God orders death of man for profaning the Sabbath.

12) Numbers 16: 28-35. The earth swallows up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

13) Numbers 16: 35. Fire comes out from the Lord and kills 250 men.

14) Numbers 16: 49. The death of 14, 700 people. See "wrath", v. 46.

15) Compare above with "anger of the Lord" in 2 Sam. 6: 6-8. Death of Uzzah.

16) Numbers 21: 3. The Lord delivered up the Canaanites so that they were destroyed.

17) Numbers 21: 6-9. The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people so that many died.

18) Numbers 22: 33. The angel of the Lord "surely would have killed Balaam."

19) Numbers 25: 3-5. The Lord ordered the executions of Baal worshippers.

20) Numbers 31: 1-18. The Lord ordered Israel to kill all Midianite males.

[Guest]

Excellent point John.

[John317]

Take, for instance, Numbers 22: 33. The angel of the Lord said that if Balaam had not turned out of the way, the angel of God "surely would have killed Balaam."

Is this true? I believe it is. But how could it be true if God NEVER takes human life?

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

the fundamental beliefs are but an outline, and sky is not at odds with our pioneers.[/quote']

Let's assume for the sake of the discussion that God has never taken the life of any human being and never will.

With that view in mind, please explain what happened in the following verses, particularly the ones in bold type, taken primarily from the first four books of the Bible. What do the verses say?

1) Gen. 6: 7, 13; 7: 4. The Flood

2) Ge. 18: 23, 28, 31; 19: 22, 24, 25, 29. (Compare Luke 17: 29; 2 Peter 2: 4, 6; Jude 7.) Destruction of Sodom.

3) Ex. 14: 26-31; 15: 19, 21. The death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea.

4) Ex. 22: 18. God ordered the killing of witches.

5) Ex. 22: 19. God ordered the killing of people who have sex with animals.

6) Ex. 31: 14; 35: 2. God ordered the killing of anyone who profaned the Sabbath.

7) Ex. 32: 27, 28. God ordered Moses to have about 3, 000 men killed.

8) Lev. 10: 1, 2. Deaths of Nadab and Abihu.

9) Lev. 24: 17. Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.

10) Numbers 11: 33. The Lord struck the people with a very great plague. See "wrath."

11) Numbers 15: 32-36. God orders death of man for profaning the Sabbath.

12) Numbers 16: 28-35. The earth swallows up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

13) Numbers 16: 35. Fire comes out from the Lord and kills 250 men.

14) Numbers 16: 49. The death of 14, 700 people. See "wrath", v. 46.

15) Compare above with "anger of the Lord" in 2 Sam. 6: 6-8. Death of Uzzah.

16) Numbers 21: 3. The Lord delivered up the Canaanites so that they were destroyed.

17) Numbers 21: 6-9. The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people so that many died.

18) Numbers 22: 33. The angel of the Lord "surely would have killed Balaam."

19) Numbers 25: 3-5. The Lord ordered the executions of Baal worshippers.

20) Numbers 31: 1-18. The Lord ordered Israel to kill all Midianite males.

Indeed that causes a lot of confusion. Makes Satan look like a saint when compared to God.

[Lutz13]

I will just patiently wait for God to answer to this. I'm sure I will be satisfied with what He tells me.

Though I have a feeling its the other way around. I personally think it's God - 0 kills and Satan 1000000000000000000000000

[pnattmbtc]

I have no issue with that.

But the Glory of God is described as a physical event.

How else can we account for fire coming down from heaven?

It's a vision, which needs to be interpreted. If you look at Revelation, it's full of symbolism. Why would the fire from heaven be different from the rest of the book, which is symbolic?

For example, Revelation speaks of the 144,000 which consists of 12,000 members of different tribes. We understand this to be symbolic. Why?

Another example from Revelation, as I recall, death and the false prophet are described as being cast in the lake of fire. This isn't literally possible. Death can't be case in the lake of fire, and the false prophet is not a literal person, but an institution.

In DA 764 we read that Satan and those who have followed him form characters such that the mere presence of God is to them a consuming fire. Why wouldn't fire coming down from heaven be a logical way to present this thought in a vision?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

In all of this Sky, you will not find much disagreement.

This is not the issue.

The issue is Gods final act, not the acts that have gone before.

The Bible and SOP clearly state that God will destroy sin and sinners with His Glory.

That this "strange act" is a strange act because it "appears" to be out of character.

So out of character that some cannot accept it...

Rather they try to deny this will happen.

But the only statement I can find on how Satan will be destroyed (aside from a murky aside to the Prince of Tyrus), the only statement that is explicit and clear in the Bible and SOP is the same one, the same principle.

That God destroys with His revealed Glory.

Do you realise you are presenting something contradictory to this?

You are stating that this is not true?

What if it is?

What if you are stating dogmatically that Gods character is one way, when in fact it is not?

Should we not be cautious when such clear statements as the above are challenging our view?

Should we not be cautious that we are misrepresenting God.

For me, the only clear path that makes it all fit together is the destruction by the revealing of His Glory.

Now if that misrepresents Him in any way, if that differs from the counsel of inspiration in any way, then Lord forgive my ignorance.

But I really cannot see how your position is correct, it seems a square peg in a round hole.

Not matter how hard you bash the peg to make it fit, it is always going to be a square peg in a round hole.

how has this fit into your understanding?

Quote:

All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions. {GC 664.2}

do you think they are "constructing" clubs?

Quote:

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." ... Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

so im rather at a loss as to why, when doing some deeper studying, there are any accusations of

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But the only statement I can find on how Satan will be destroyed (aside from a murky aside to the Prince of Tyrus), the only statement that is explicit and clear in the Bible and SOP is the same one, the same principle.

That God destroys with His revealed Glory.

I will be posting an update on this on the Prince of Tyrus thread this afternoon, God willing Theresa. :-)

I will share why I do not think it is Satan being referred to as the Prince of Tyrus.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

In case some of you have not seen this. I believe it is worthy of our consideration. God bless.

Originally Posted By: John317

Look at a few examples of God's wrath, or anger, in the Old Testament:

1) Numbers 11: 33. What was the result of the wrath of the Lord?

2) Number 16: 44-49

3) Numbers 25: 3-5. What did the anger of the Lord result in?

4) 2 Sam. 6: 6-8.

How would you characterize God's wrath in these passages? In what ways-- if any-- is this wrath similar to human wrath, and how is it different?

___________________________________________________________________

Thanks John. I just read these passages you gave to us. In order to know what "the anger of the Lord" is we need to compare 2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chron.21:1. These two passages clearly reveal that Satan is the anger of the Lord. I will share with you why he is called "the anger of the Lord" before the end of this post.

If you compare one of the passages you mentioned, Numbers 25:3 with 2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chron.21:1 it becomes clear that when it says "and the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel" it simply means that the Lord permitted Satan to afflict Israel because of their sins.

Jeremiah the prophet understood this when he wrote these words:

"Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goes forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind; it will fall violently on the head of the wicked. The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until he has done it, and until he has performed the intents of his heart. In the latter days you will consider it."

Then in chapter 23, verse 20 the prophet says, "The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he has executed, and till he has performed the thoughts of his heart; in the latter days you will consider (understand) it perfectly."

We are in the "latter days" of this prophecy and we may understand perfectly what "the anger of the Lord" or "His wrath" is. As we compare these passages of Scriptures with 2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 we may know that Satan is indeed "the anger of the Lord" in the sense that he is the prosecutor against all who break the law of God, that he is the one who always wants to make sure that the sinner is punished for his sin. His claim is that he has a perfect right to afflict or destroy those who transgress the law of God. After all, was he not bannished from Heaven and will he not be annihilated on account of his having transgressed the law of God? So he wants justice to be done against all transgressors. So Satan is the great legalist, the prosecutor and the executioner of the sentence against transgression. It is in that sense that the Scriptures teach us that he is "the anger of the Lord."

One more proof that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36. It is for that very reason that "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin." 1 S.M.235.

Satan is the prosecutor and the executioner of the sentence as soon as God permits or as soon as He gives His angels the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy, as we have seen in previous quoted statements.

Remember how Jeremiah the prophet said that in the "latter days" a people would consider this and that they would understand it perfectly. In chapter 29 and 23 Jeremiah talked about "the whirlwind of the Lord," or "the fierce anger of the Lord."

When Elijah the prophet was in the cave and the Lord said unto him, "Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and broke in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake. And the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire, and after that a still, small voice." 1 Kings 19:11,12.

This is the very lesson that both John the Baptist and Elijah had to learn, that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but that Satan is. Please read D.A.215,217 very carefully and prayerfully.

God bless,

sky

* Christ is continually pleading the merits of His shed blood before the Father on behalf of the transgressors that they may be shielded from the accuser and the prosecuter and the executioner as long as it is possible to do so. But against those who put their trust in the merits of the blood of Christ to find pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, the enemy has no power over them.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

the fundamental beliefs are but an outline, and sky is not at odds with our pioneers.[/quote']

Let's assume for the sake of the discussion that God has never taken the life of any human being and never will.

With that view in mind, please explain what happened in the following verses, particularly the ones in bold type, taken primarily from the first four books of the Bible. What do the verses say?

1) Gen. 6: 7, 13; 7: 4. The Flood

2) Ge. 18: 23, 28, 31; 19: 22, 24, 25, 29. (Compare Luke 17: 29; 2 Peter 2: 4, 6; Jude 7.) Destruction of Sodom.

3) Ex. 14: 26-31; 15: 19, 21. The death of the Egyptians in the Red Sea.

4) Ex. 22: 18. God ordered the killing of witches.

5) Ex. 22: 19. God ordered the killing of people who have sex with animals.

6) Ex. 31: 14; 35: 2. God ordered the killing of anyone who profaned the Sabbath.

7) Ex. 32: 27, 28. God ordered Moses to have about 3, 000 men killed.

8) Lev. 10: 1, 2. Deaths of Nadab and Abihu.

9) Lev. 24: 17. Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.

10) Numbers 11: 33. The Lord struck the people with a very great plague. See "wrath."

11) Numbers 15: 32-36. God orders death of man for profaning the Sabbath.

12) Numbers 16: 28-35. The earth swallows up Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

13) Numbers 16: 35. Fire comes out from the Lord and kills 250 men.

14) Numbers 16: 49. The death of 14, 700 people. See "wrath", v. 46.

15) Compare above with "anger of the Lord" in 2 Sam. 6: 6-8. Death of Uzzah.

16) Numbers 21: 3. The Lord delivered up the Canaanites so that they were destroyed.

17) Numbers 21: 6-9. The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people so that many died.

18) Numbers 22: 33. The angel of the Lord "surely would have killed Balaam."

19) Numbers 25: 3-5. The Lord ordered the executions of Baal worshippers.

20) Numbers 31: 1-18. The Lord ordered Israel to kill all Midianite males.

Something to think about. It's hard to believe all these texts are saying something other than what they really mean.

[pnattmbtc]

Lutz, I love that chart. I think you're right.

[pnattmbtc]

Something to think about. It's hard to believe all these texts are saying something other than what they really mean.

Consider that "God sent fiery serpents against the Isrealites" means "God permitted the fiery serpents which had been there the whole, and from which He had been protecting them from, to attack the Israelites." Would you say this is an example of a text "saying something other than what it really means"?

[pnattmbtc]

Take, for instance, Numbers 22: 33. The angel of the Lord said that if Balaam had not turned out of the way, the angel of God "surely would have killed Balaam."

Is this true? I believe it is. But how could it be true if God NEVER takes human life?

It could be true in the same that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

[John317]

Thanks, sky, for that thoughtful and thought-provoking post. I like what you wrote but I'm not sure that it can explain all the texts in the Bible on this subject.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Take, for instance, Numbers 22: 33. The angel of the Lord said that if Balaam had not turned out of the way, the angel of God "surely would have killed Balaam."

Is this true? I believe it is. But how could it be true if God NEVER takes human life?

It could be true in the same that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

Please explain how this would apply to what the angel of God said in Numbers 22: 33.

What do you believe would have happened if Balaam's donkey had not turned aside? Remember that the angel said he would have killed Balaam and left the donkey alive.

[Twilight]

I have posted a small study on the Prince of Tyrus thread.

I think this shows that we should be cautious developing a doctrine based on the idea that the Prince of Tyrus is specifically Satan...

And that he will be killed by man.

[skyblue888]

I have posted a small study on the Prince of Tyrus thread.

I think this shows that we should be cautious developing a doctrine based on the idea that the Prince of Tyrus is specifically Satan...

And that he will be killed by man.

Mark, I can't believe you are saying this in the face of what inspiration has already stated that the representation made in Ezekiel 28 refers primarily to Lucifer. English is your language and you know very well that "primarily" means "essentially, mostly, chiefly, principally."

Developing a doctrine based on the idea that the prince of Tyrus is specifially Satan...

Again, I must say, you never cease to amaze me, my dear friend Mark.

I am really scratching my head here as to what is happening with my brother to make that kind of a statement when the pen of inspiration is so clear, and that is that Satan is the primary figure referred to in that chapter, so much so that Mrs. White has nothing to say about the prince of Tyrus himself. She specifially applies that chapter to Lucifer!!!

You are right Mark, we need to be very cautious here! :)

[pnattmbtc]

Let's assume for the sake of the discussion that God has never taken the life of any human being and never will.

With that view in mind, please explain what happened in the following verses, particularly the ones in bold type, taken primarily from the first four books of the Bible. What do the verses say?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It could be true in the same that God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites.

[/quote']

Please explain how this would apply to what the angel of God said in Numbers 22: 33.

What do you believe would have happened if Balaam's donkey had not turned aside? Remember that the angel said he would have killed Balaam and left the donkey alive.

It's the same principle as God's sending fiery serpents upon the Israelites. The principle is that God presents Himself as doing that which He permits. The same thing that applies to God applies to His agents. The Old Testament doesn't attribute any of the violence recorded there to evil angels, as far as I can recall. (One could argue that Job does, but remember that the Hebrews didn't have the same concept of Satan as Christians do). God is seen as sovereign, what meant, to the Hebrews, that everything that happened should be attributed to Him. I believe this is how Jews still think.