Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[skyblue888]

The statement found in G.C.36 is the foundational statement but there are many others like,

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

sky

[skyblue888]

Here is another one:

"From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

This applies to the wicked in every age but after the 1000 years the role will be reversed and Satan and his angels will be the ones who will have no protection from the unsaved of all ages and by that time his power will be like that of man. During the thousand years he will lose much of his power. Just think of the effect of a thousand years of indolence will produce upon him and his evil angels having no one to tempt or nothing to do but think about what they have done!!!

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But that is the danger, when we take one principle and try to force scripture to fit it.

One principle on its own is insufficient to describe the complexities of how God deals with His creation.

You have stated above that we should not take that one statement and built on it.

But then you have said:

instead of building upon the foundation: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression."

And by doing, you have just done the very thing you condemned in the same breath!

Think about it my friend.

You have said the following:

"You cannot use one statement as the principle for deciding this issue, but here is "the single statement" that decides this issue, and you must accept this..."

Mark :-)

[/quote']

Mark, there is a difference between a lone statement that needs to be understood in the light of the foundational statement. When the Holy Spirit tells us that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," He means it and every other statement needs to be read with that foundational statement in mind. Thats what I meant just as Daniel 8:14 is the foundational and central pillar of the Advent movement.

sky

So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

:-)

[Twilight]

The statement found in G.C.36 is the foundational statement but there are many others like,

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

sky

But if you add that to the idea that God reveals His glory, that only with His protection manifested through the merits of Christ are the saved protected.

That this glory destroys sin and the sinner attached to that sin, then they have placed themselves beyond His protection.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Here is another one:

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawnlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

Here again the Holy Spirit is identifying Satan as the destroyer.

And the principle that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression is revealed again and again.

sky

[Twilight]

Here is another one:

"From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

This applies to the wicked in every age but after the 1000 years the role will be reversed and Satan and his angels will be the ones who will have no protection from the unsaved of all ages and by that time his power will be like that of man. During the thousand years he will lose much of his power. Just think of the effect of a thousand years of indolence will produce upon him and his evil angels having no one to tempt or nothing to do but think about what they have done!!!

sky

And Satans power has drawn those sinners out from under Gods protection, and when God reveals His Glory and destroys all sin, they will perish because they refused His protection.

So you see, it does not conflict with the idea that Gods revealed Glory destroys the sinner.

But we have to reject this principle as error if we are to accept man kills Satan.

We have to take the statement that God is a consuming fire and throw it away.

Mark :-)

[Lutz13]

So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

Statements like these introduce the issues with the English language.

This can be looked at from two different views. Gods presence literally kills them. Or Gods presence causes them much discomfort that they would want to die. Which seems to makes sense since at His coming the wicked call for the rocks to fall on them.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

:-)

[Twilight]

Here is another one:

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawnlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

Here again the Holy Spirit is identifying Satan as the destroyer.

And the principle that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression is revealed again and again.

sky

Is this not a quote dealing with Gods actions at a specific time?

Rather than an over arching principle that must hold true at all times?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

Statements like these introduce the issues with the English language.

This can be looked at from two different views. Gods presence literally kills them. Or Gods presence causes them much discomfort that they would want to die. Which seems to makes sense since at His coming the wicked call for the rocks to fall on them.

Except that it is quite a specific statement and collection of statements I am quoting Lutz. :-)

[LifeHiscost]

* I have been studying this issue since 1983 and I am telling you there is much more evidence to support that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression.

In the Scriptures, all revelations of God are true. A preponderance of Scriptural evidence may reveal Truth, but it does not destroy the Word given in other places. Therefor it remains for the person who adopts a position based on Scriptural evidence, to prove why it is consistent with the rest of the Word which begs for fulfillment also.

When the Word was accepted in earlier times, my understanding is there was no "or' in the Truth revealed. This aberration did not occur until western civilization made effort to answer difficult Scriptures that seemed to be contradictory with each other.

Therefor rather than try to prove that God doesn't kill anyone, no matter how despicable their crimes might be, it seems necessary to explain Truth by inclusion, using "and" as the necessary indicator to determine how vengeance is true of our Sovereign Lord, Who is also merciful and full of compassion.

Blessings!

[skyblue888]

So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

___________________________________________________

Because Mark it is not a foundational statement! It is a statement that implies that God would then be an executioner of the sentence against transgression. But the foundational statement does not say that. On the contrary it does say that He DOES NOT stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.

sky

[Guest]

The only way it can be said that it would be His strange act is in the sense that He would no longer protect. Mrs. White was shown that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. Do you believe that implicitly Mark? The wicked, she says, place themselves where He can no longer protect them. Do you believe this implicitly Mark?

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

You keep skipping over me sky, This is the third time I have posted this.

You are taking this quote out of context. She is not referring to the final judgment here, but the judgements that fall on sinful man during his lifetime. Here is the full quote:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}

[Twilight]

* I have been studying this issue since 1983 and I am telling you there is much more evidence to support that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Here is another one:

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawnlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

Here again the Holy Spirit is identifying Satan as the destroyer.

And the principle that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression is revealed again and again.

sky

Is this not a quote dealing with Gods actions at a specific time?

Rather than an over arching principle that must hold true at all times?

Mark

Mark, it must be true at all times for "The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

sky

[Twilight]

So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

___________________________________________________

Because Mark it is not a foundational statement! It is a statement that implies that God would then be an executioner of the sentence against transgression. But the foundational statement does not say that. On the contrary it does say that He DOES NOT stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.

sky

But Sky, this foundational statement leads into another.

And that principle is the one you are saying is not a foundational principle!

It is not to be taken in isolation, but in context.

Let us add the two together and see them both set as jewels in the crown:

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and

37

solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin, and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC88 36.2}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior, with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood," [iSA. 9:5.]--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and Satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC88 37.1}

But in that day, as in the time of Jerusalem's destruction, God's people will be delivered, "every one that shall be found written among the living." Christ has declared that he will come the second time, to gather his faithful ones to himself: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [MATT. 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] Like Israel

38

of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

Let men beware lest they neglect the lesson conveyed to them in the words

[Guest]

Not at the end it's not. That is the only time his wrath is poured out without mixture.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Is this not a quote dealing with Gods actions at a specific time?

Rather than an over arching principle that must hold true at all times?

Mark [/quote']

Mark, it must be true at all times for "The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

sky

Yes and He has been warning them of the time to come, when He reveals His glory.

Only their decided rebellion will bring death and destruction when that is manifested.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Here is another one Mark:

"God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit the their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of Satan to bear sway to destroy." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.181.

His protection is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil until it is fully removed. When it is fully removed, it is said that His wrath is complete as it will be when probation shall close. See Rev.15;1.

sky

[skyblue888]

Here is another one:

"What Pharaoh has done will be done until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stiffles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing the seeds of unbelief and will reap as he has sown." Review and Herald, Vol.6, p.285.

sky

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Statements like these introduce the issues with the English language.

This can be looked at from two different views. Gods presence literally kills them. Or Gods presence causes them much discomfort that they would want to die. Which seems to makes sense since at His coming the wicked call for the rocks to fall on them.

Except that it is quite a specific statement and collection of statements I am quoting Lutz. :-)

Statements that say "they are destroyed by the brightness of His coming" are not specific enough. Do they melt in His presence? Do they jump off a cliff? Do they randomly explode? Do they jump around until they fall over? Do they.... You see my point? Do we know how His brightness kills them?

For Daniel just being in the presence of an angel was a dreadful experience. Why?

I believe Jesus gave the answer.

"For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."(John 3:20)

When in the presence of holiness it exposes the persons character and they see themselves as they truly are. Which is why when the wicked see God they just want to die.

[pnattmbtc]

Twilight:So how do you decide that God destroying with the brightness of His revealed Glory is not a foundational principle?

Lutz:Statements like these introduce the issues with the English language.

This can be looked at from two different views. Gods presence literally kills them. Or Gods presence causes them much discomfort that they would want to die. Which seems to makes sense since at His coming the wicked call for the rocks to fall on them.

[skyblue888]

Good points Lutz.

Here is another one:

"What Pharaoh has done will be done until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stiffles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing the seeds of unbelief and will reap as he has sown." Review and Herald, Vol.6, p.285.

sky

[Woody]

We should not be doubting the SOP.

[Lutz13]

Good points Lutz.

Here is another one:

"What Pharaoh has done will be done until the close of probation. God destroys no man; but when a man stiffles conviction, when he turns from evidence, he is sowing the seeds of unbelief and will reap as he has sown." Review and Herald, Vol.6, p.285.

sky

"They would have none of my counsel and despised my every rebuke. Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled to the full with their own fancies."(Proverbs 1:30,31)