Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:15

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.(GC 35)

Here we see that the "great deceiver" seeks to conceal his own work as a punishment visited upon the group in question by a direct decree of God. Is it possible that this has happened in more circumstances than we may have thought? That is, we're told specifically that the "great deceiver" does this. Could it be that he has done so successfully? (i.e., in such a way that we have attributed to God acts for which he is responsible, which is his goal).

Good reason for further study and consideration before becoming dogmatic about one conclusion says it all.

Blessings!

[Guest]

Amen brother

[LifeHiscost]

how did the subject come up? and why did you perceive it as "uncomfortable"?

[LifeHiscost]

the question is, how does God protect His own?

Psa 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Psa 94:23 And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

[LifeHiscost]

could you explain how you see this as answering the question?

What was the question?

[LifeHiscost]

Not sure if it answered teresaq's, but it helped to answer some of mine.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:15

"Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man"James 5:16 YLT

Blessings!

[Stewart (SDA)]

How does God protect His own?

A lot could be said in response to that question, but in a way I believe that the following Scriptures sum up a great deal.

"Whosoever hearkens to Me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." (Prov 1:33)

And again,

"who is he that will harm you, if you be followers of that which is good?" (1Peter 3:13)

_________

Stewart

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

what do you base your information on?

i mean what do you know of what other churches teach?

and have you been in all of the sda churches to know what they teach on a week to week basis? [/quote']...

Hence, when I progressed down the road of learning what the Bible says about the various doctrines, I also studied in-depth those denominations I had known about all my then-young life.

At the end of that part of my pilgrimage, I joined the SDA church, knowing fully what the other denominations teach regarding tthe topics that distinguish us from the other Christian professions.....

I won't make the claim to perfect knowledge of other professions, but I know enough to be able to make the distinctions between what they do teach and what they don't, with respect to the SDA church.

Sure, I've encounterd some people of other professions who stand closer to the SDA beliefs then the published teachings of their church's leadership. They are the exception rather than the rule.

What I mean by "the SDA church" is what is published by the General Conference. Yes, there are SDA churches who deviate from them, but again, they are the exception rather than the norm.

Been to other SDA churches? Yes, I have. Even to one in the Wasatch Mountains above Salt Lake City (pretty far-flung for me). I've been in the pulpit of one which is constantly beseiged by Davidians - not your normal church setting.

Hope this answers our questions a bit...

studying the beliefs of other denominations doesnt really say what the average individuals in those bodies know or believe, does it?

what im saying is, when i talk with those of other denominations i do not get a statement of their "fundamental beliefs". i also find them generally open to listening to what i believe and there can be some pretty good discussions.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

could you explain how you see this as answering the question?

What was the question?

the one you left out, but since you dont appear to want to answer it ill drop it. :)

[pnattmbtc]

My favorite discussion is what people think of God.

[Lutz13]

We also need to consider this Lutz:

I ask our people to study the 28th chapter of Ezekiel. The representation here made, while it refers primarily to Lucifer, the fallen angel, has a yet broader significance. Not one being, but a general movement, is described, and one that we shall witness. A faithful study of this chapter should lead those who are seeking for truth to walk in all the light that God has given to His people, lest they be deceived by the deceptions of these last days. {SpTB17a 30.2}

That is true, often times we find that things have more than one application. Though she does make it pretty clear that even the prince Tyrus represents Satan.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

how did the subject come up? and why did you perceive it as "uncomfortable"?

When I was invited by a fellow adventist to his former membership, to a mid-week service presented by Sunday proponents, where a replica of the ark of the covenant was displayed. It led to many questions in which there seemed to be a dearth of knowledge, revealing what could have been ignorance surrounding the subject being addressed.

The discomfort may have come from the presenter as he seemed anxious to move on and away from the subject.

Quote:

This does not surprise me nor discomfit me to any great measure, for I believe the Holy Spirit is more actively drawing people to the church where the Word will reflect the unified wisdom and knowledge accepted when He, the Holy Spirit, reveals it.

[teresaq]

We will be unified when we are changed by 'seeing His Face' and are in Heaven learning all the wonderful Truths about God and His love and justice.

i think that one day very soon all Gods people will be uniting including some in the sda denomination.

i look forward to that very brief day. :smile:

and then, yes, all Gods people will be eternally united in one great family!

meanwhile it is quite joyful to come across those who truly love the Lord whereever they are. in or out of any church.

[teresaq]

How does God protect His own?

A lot could be said in response to that question, but in a way I believe that the following Scriptures sum up a great deal.

"Whosoever hearkens to Me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." (Prov 1:33)

And again,

"who is he that will harm you, if you be followers of that which is good?" (1Peter 3:13)

_________

Stewart

nice verses to keep in mind.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No my friend, please re-read my post.

The King of Tyrus is clearly Satan.

But the personage that is destroyed by men is the Prince of Tyrus.

There are two individuals in this text.

Not one.

...

Mark[/quote']

I went back and read it, and you are right. I had never noticed that before.

Which was why I stated earlier that I had not read any text saying that "Satan is killed by the hands of man".

It simply is not there.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Jump on in here Bob, but I warn you, the opposition is pretty fierce. They do not want God to kill the wicked.

[BobRyan]

Richard -

I never saw a non-God solution for the description of the wicked being destroyed by God in the Lake of fire.

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Was there a solution for this???

Some way to get around it?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

If Desire of Ages is a preferred source --

Quote:

DA Chpt 78 Calvary

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01327.htm

From the fall of Jerusalem the thoughts of Jesus passed to a wider judgment. In the destruction of the impenitent city He saw a symbol of the final destruction to come upon the world. He said, "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" By the green tree, Jesus represented Himself, the innocent Redeemer. God suffered His wrath against transgression to fall on His beloved Son. Jesus was to be crucified for the sins of men. What suffering, then, would the sinner bear who continued in sin? All the impenitent and unbelieving would know a sorrow and misery that language would fail to express. {DA 743.2}

..

The Saviour made no murmur of complaint. His face remained calm and serene, but great drops of sweat stood upon His brow. There was no pitying hand to wipe the death dew from His face, nor words of sympathy and unchanging fidelity to stay His human heart. While the soldiers were doing their fearful work, Jesus prayed for His enemies, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." His mind passed from His own suffering to the sin of His persecutors, and the terrible retribution that would be theirs. No curses were called down upon the soldiers who were handling Him so roughly. No vengeance was invoked upon the priests and rulers, who were gloating over the accomplishment of their purpose. Christ pitied them in their ignorance and guilt. He breathed only a plea for their forgiveness,--"for they know not what they do." {DA 744.2}

Had they known that they were putting to torture One who had come to save the sinful race from eternal ruin, they would have been seized with remorse and horror. But their ignorance did not remove their guilt; for it was their privilege to know and accept Jesus as their

745

…

Jesus, suffering and dying, heard every word as the priests declared, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Christ could have come down from the cross. But it is because He would not save Himself that the sinner has hope of pardon and favor with God. {DA 749.1}

…

There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." {DA 750.1}

…

And now the Lord of glory was dying, a ransom for the race. In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy. All was oppressive gloom. It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that

753

through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. {DA 752.4}

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

…

The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured--the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face--speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee.

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He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

 

[LifeHiscost]

How does God protect His own?

A lot could be said in response to that question, but in a way I believe that the following Scriptures sum up a great deal.

"Whosoever hearkens to Me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." (Prov 1:33)

And again,

"who is he that will harm you, if you be followers of that which is good?" (1Peter 3:13)

Stewart

Goes well with this.

"...for we are not able to do anything against the truth, but for the truth" 2 Corinthians 13:8 YLT

OTOH that doesn't answer the question of pain resulting from faithful service to the Master.

"Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution [will be made to suffer because of their religious stand]." 2 Timothy 3:12 AMP brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!

[Guest]

It's true.

[LifeHiscost]

i am most grateful that our great and holy God has an institution that has the truth in it somewhere available to the one who will look for it.

but i would give the glory to God and not to the church.

im not the least bit interested in patting myself on the back for belonging to the "right church, keeping the right day".

nor am i interested in painting rosy, glowing pictures of our church.

[Guest]

That was beautiful.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No my friend, please re-read my post.

The King of Tyrus is clearly Satan.

But the personage that is destroyed by men is the Prince of Tyrus.

There are two individuals in this text.

Not one.

The Prince of Tyrus and his destruction closely matches the destruction of Babylon in Revelation interestingly enough.

So I do not think the bible states that men will kill Satan.

As to draw the conclusion that the Prince of Tyrus is Satan is not correct in my view, there is no reason to suppose that at all.

Mark[/quote']

I went back and read it, and you are right. I had never noticed that before.

This is very interesting, and challenging.

But the King of Tyrus is clearly angelic.

The prince of Tyrus is a man.

Very interesting.

Mark :-)