Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[LifeHiscost]

The context is righteousness by faith and the relation between the law and the righteousness of Christ. People have a hard time accepting or desiring His righteousness if they see Him as a vengeful God.

"You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.Leviticus 19:18 KJV

" O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongs—O God, to whom vengeance belongs, shine forth!"Psalm 94:2 NKJV

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,saith the Lord.""Romans 12:19

21st Century KJV

Why would God even want to be the avenger? Because man is so incompetent and unjust when he feels it necessary. Stop man from the process, then any necessary vengeance will have it's proper outcome.

"God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies..." Nahum 1:2 NKJV

While God is Love and Love wishes to save all His creation, what logic would demand that He not take action against His continuing avowed enemies, especially when they insist upon the right to destroy His friends?

"No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you."John 15:15 NKJV

Even the animal kingdom, whom God gave instinct, has sense enough to protect its' own. Should we give God any less credit for protecting His own?

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

One of the main differences is the sanctuary message' date=' held by Seventh Day Adventists almost exclusively, that pointed to Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb. Many see God in the old testament as far different than the God of the new, although in some cases that probably is changing. Some I'm aware of feel that message is largely irrelevant. [/quote']wow!!

what church doesnt believe Christ to be the sacrificial lamb?

This was written in reference to the old testament body of believers. The sacrificial system pointed forward to God's giving of His only begotten Son. The system was degraded by man's fallen nature until it was made to appear that God was a vengeful God, the main reason the Christian of today believes there is a difference between a loving Savior of the new testament, and a vengeful God of the old.

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Mark, you are now saying that these passages in Ezekiel may not apply to Lucifer at all?

No my friend, please re-read my post.

The King of Tyrus is clearly Satan.

But the personage that is destroyed by men is the Prince of Tyrus.

There are two individuals in this text.

Not one.

The Prince of Tyrus and his destruction closely matches the destruction of Babylon in Revelation interestingly enough.

So I do not think the bible states that men will kill Satan.

As to draw the conclusion that the Prince of Tyrus is Satan is not correct in my view, there is no reason to suppose that at all.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

of course, i guess, if its "for a good reason" then it isnt really breaking the law?

so as long as God breaks a commandment "for a good reason" and it is not sin, then if we break any commandment "for a good reason" then it is not sin for us either, such as the crusades, as someone mentioned?

I do not believe the commandment is properly translated as "Thou shalt not kill, therefor I cannot address it in the same way you seem to understand it. There is a distinct difference between murder and kill, which places the commandment easily kept when obeying the instruction by God:

"Then Judah went up, and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand; and they killed ten thousand men at Bezek." Judges 1:4 NKJV

OTOH if "Thou shalt not kill" is the correct understanding then it appears that God told the Israelites to break the commandment. Are you satisfied with the inconsistency?

As for the crusades, I am not aware of any direct revelations from the Lord for them to commit their murderous campaigns, even as I do not believe that Allah, if he really were God Almighty, commanded those involved to blow over the world trade center.

Blessings!

Succintly put my friend.

I agree with this assessment.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Okay, that's good Richard. What about this?

Someone asked me: "I challenge you to find ten people that believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Then ask each one of them from their understanding of the Bible both old and new testaments. Ask them, Does the Bible say that God will punish, or destroy Satan and sinners? I think if you will do this, you will find all ten of ten people will say, Yes the Bible clearly does teach that God will destroy or punish sin, Satan and sinners. And if not all ten agree, most of them will. Because the Bible alone does clearly teach this."

*****************************************************************

I totally agree that if we were to survey 10 people at random on this question as to whether God directly destroys or not (adventists or non-adventists alike) most likely ten out of ten or close to that number would agree to say that God destroys sinners in the sense that His judgments come DIRECTLY out from Him upon them. But this would only prove one thing, and it is this:

"It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are loosing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." For "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." Christ's Object Lessons,415; Great Controversy,492.

The very fact that the majority of the professed people of God all agree to say that God's judgments directly come out from the Lord upon the wicked prove Mrs. White's statement to be true, and that is that "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented to the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." Selected Messages, Vol.1,355.

This is, to say the very least of it, a very serious charge!

Is it any wonder, then, that the the whole world is in the dark concerning the character of God?

"Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people." Isa.60:2.

Thus we read, "It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time, a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." Christ's Object Lessons, 415.

If we were to listen to what the majority of people are saying, we would have no choice but to believe that this message from God which is to be proclaimed to the whole world is that He destroys sinners, that is, that His judgments come out directly from Him upon them. But the whole world already believes this including the majority of the professed people of God. There are a few, here and there, who do not share this view but the overwhelming majority does.

If our message is to tell the world that God personally and directly destroys sinners, what would we be teaching them that they didn't already know? How could that message be "illuminating in its influence" or "saving in its power"?

sky

I do not think we should lay down a charge of Spiritual ignorance just yet my friend...

There are sufficient strong positions to support the idea that God will ultimately destroy sin.

It has not been displayed yet on this thread that that traditional view is wrong.

No one is arguing that the sinners will not suffer the consequence of their actions.

But we are dealing with Gods strange act here.

Let us not wave around statements that might be seen to throw others in a light of "ignorance", when the position has not been clearly established.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

Our good and gracious God has been presented to us clothed in the attributes of Satan because tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the principles of His government, and His dealing with sin.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

sky

These quotes are dangerous Sky.

Anyone can roll them out when someone disagrees with our position.

Can I ask that we use specific quotes relating to the subject.

These quotes just engender strife when used as "victory flags".

The original context of those quotes is of paramount importance.

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

I do not think we should lay down a charge of Spiritual ignorance just yet my friend...

[pnattmbtc]

These quotes are dangerous Sky.

Anyone can roll them out when someone disagrees with our position.

Can I ask that we use specific quotes relating to the subject.

These quotes just engender strife when used as "victory flags".

The original context of those quotes is of paramount importance.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

These quotes are dangerous Sky.

Anyone can roll them out when someone disagrees with our position.

Can I ask that we use specific quotes relating to the subject.

These quotes just engender strife when used as "victory flags".

The original context of those quotes is of paramount importance.

My two cents. Again, I'm new here, and haven't read through this entire thread. If quotes like the ones you mentioned are being used to try to belittle another, then I agree completely with your request. However, I think mentioning the quotes as a means to provoke thought is legitimate. That is, could it be the case that the people of God have been misrepresenting the character of God in the way being suggested?

Here's another example of what I'm talking about:

Quote:

Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.(GC 35)

Here we see that the "great deceiver" seeks to conceal his own work as a punishment visited upon the group in question by a direct decree of God. Is it possible that this has happened in more circumstances than we may have thought? That is, we're told specifically that the "great deceiver" does this. Could it be that he has done so successfully? (i.e., in such a way that we have attributed to God acts for which he is responsible, which is his goal).

Not so much belittling, but using quotes to "prove" a position that the quotes do not necessarily comment on is not conducive to open discussion.

We must always guard against the idea that "we" have all the light and that if someone else does not accept it, they are spiritually blind.

If the quotes were specifically related to the discussion, then let us use them.

But if they are not, then they are just being used in a general sense.

We could use the same quotes like this:

To imply that God is a pacifist is to place on God characteristics of an ideology that man has supplied.

Therefore we misrepresent Gods character...

"Please insert quotes about misunderstanding Gods Character from SOP here..."

I hope you can see the point I am trying to make?

Let us deal with specific points and texts one at a time.

I am still waiting for a response on the Prince of Tyrus/King of Tyrus issue, before we engage in charges of "spiritul blindness" for instance. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

By the way...

I know I am spiritually blind, unless the Lord gives me eyesight...

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I think he's talking about our understanding of the Santuary in heaven here, more so than just the sacrificial lamb. It actually is the one doctrine that separates us from all other churches, other than the Sabbath.

The Sunday churches don't have any idea of the work taking place in the Heavenly Santuary right now, or how it ties in to our salvation.

Richard's response more or less gives the answer you asked me,

teresaq. While I'm not acquainted with large numbers of other denominations, the 3 or 4 I have had opportunity to worship with seemed clearly to focus on the cross and human behavior only, as opposed to actually believing Jesus is occupied in Heaven preparing in any important aspect of future usefulness for our homecoming.

When the subject did come up, if it did re: the sanctuary services in the holy place or the most holy place, it seemed a rather uncomfortable silence would be the normal response prior to changing the subject.

[Woody]

We will be unified when we are changed by 'seeing His Face' and are in Heaven learning all the wonderful Truths about God and His love and justice.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The context is righteousness by faith and the relation between the law and the righteousness of Christ. People have a hard time accepting or desiring His righteousness if they see Him as a vengeful God.

Even the animal kingdom, whom God gave instinct, has sense enough to protect its' own. Should we give God any less credit for protecting His own?

the question is, how does God protect His own?

Psa 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

Psa 94:23 And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

This was written in reference to the old testament body of believers. The sacrificial system pointed forward to God's giving of His only begotten Son. The system was degraded by man's fallen nature until it was made to appear that God was a vengeful God, the main reason the Christian of today believes there is a difference between a loving Savior of the new testament, and a vengeful God of the old.

could you explain how you see this as answering the question?

[Lutz13]

I am still waiting for a response on the Prince of Tyrus/King of Tyrus issue, before we engage in charges of "spiritul blindness" for instance. :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Not so much belittling, but using quotes to "prove" a position that the quotes do not necessarily comment on is not conducive to open discussion.

[Woody]

Ellen White and the Bible both .... used quotes out of context. It is the homiletical style of some writers. There are varied ways of teaching and learning. This is just one.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I am still waiting for a response on the Prince of Tyrus/King of Tyrus issue, before we engage in charges of "spiritul blindness" for instance. :-)

Originally Posted By: Ellen G White 1888 Materials, pp 1200

Every soul who will now evade through sophistry, the plain "Thus saith the Lord," and misinterpret and evade the plainest conclusions of the written inspired Word, will become instruments to tempt and coerce, and stirred with a satanic spirit purpose to afflict and oppress and compel the human agents to dishonor God's law, and accept and advocate Satan's legislation and reverse his enactments with a zeal proportionate to their blinding delusions.

Our Lord declares that Satan "abode not in the truth." Once he did bear rule under God and Jesus Christ, and all was radiant and lovely. Eze. 28:1-3. "The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, thus saith the Lord God: because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: behold thou are wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee."

"Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith the Lord God; thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of

fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned; therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror and never shalt thou be any more." {1888 1200.1}

She makes it sound as if all of Ezekiel 28 represents Satan.

Quote:

The first sinner was one whom God had greatly exalted. He is represented under the figure of the prince of Tyrus flourishing in might and magnificence. Little by little Satan came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. The Scripture says: "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." "Thou hast said in thine heart, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; . . . I will be like the Most High." Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. And coveting the glory with which the infinite Father has invested His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power that was the prerogative of Christ alone. {4BC 1162.4}

Quote:

The first sinner was one whom God had greatly exalted. He is represented under the figure of the prince of Tyrus flourishing in might and magnificence. Little by little Satan came to indulge the desire for self-exaltation. . . . Though all his glory was from God, this mighty angel came to regard it as pertaining to himself. Not content with his position, though honored above the heavenly host, he ventured to covet homage due alone to the Creator. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of all created beings, it was his endeavor to secure their service and loyalty to himself. . . . {FLB 66.4}

We also need to consider this Lutz:

I ask our people to study the 28th chapter of Ezekiel. The representation here made, while it refers primarily to Lucifer, the fallen angel, has a yet broader significance. Not one being, but a general movement, is described, and one that we shall witness. A faithful study of this chapter should lead those who are seeking for truth to walk in all the light that God has given to His people, lest they be deceived by the deceptions of these last days. {SpTB17a 30.2}

[Twilight]

The scope of the quotes is the whole question. To discuss the question, the quotes have to be cited.

Regarding the point you're wishing to make, it seems to be that we shouldn't use quotes out of context, or accuse others of spiritual blindness. Is that right?

I think we have to be careful when accusing others of spiritual blindness.

And to use a general statement to try and re-inforce that accusation is also dangerous.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

But it is true ... that some are honestly just plain 'blind'. We need to stand up for Truth especially Present Truth. And we need to call Truth as we see it.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mark, you are now saying that these passages in Ezekiel may not apply to Lucifer at all?

No my friend, please re-read my post.

The King of Tyrus is clearly Satan.

But the personage that is destroyed by men is the Prince of Tyrus.

There are two individuals in this text.

Not one.

The Prince of Tyrus and his destruction closely matches the destruction of Babylon in Revelation interestingly enough.

So I do not think the bible states that men will kill Satan.

As to draw the conclusion that the Prince of Tyrus is Satan is not correct in my view, there is no reason to suppose that at all.

Mark

I went back and read it, and you are right. I had never noticed that before.

[pnattmbtc]

Where was there an accusation of spiritual blindness?

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

Nah, we're not really that different....except they preach eternal hellfire and punishing, beginning at the moment of death, while we don't....

...they don't preach a real and living Satan, while we do....

...some preach purgatory, the "dry cleaning by fire", just in case one didn't quite make the grade....while we don't....

...they don't preach the involvement of the Sanctuary in the vindication of God's character....while we do (or are supposed to be...)

We preach the the 3rd Angel's message, warning against the Mark of the Beast and its commensury fate called eternal death...while they don't...

We preach obedience to all commandments for both here, and in eternal life ahead...they pick and choose...

We preach an Investigative Judgement...they don't...

Are we really like the other denominations in general? I'm thinking there might be just a teensy bit of difference...but that might just be me...

what do you base your information on?

i mean what do you know of what other churches teach?

and have you been in all of the sda churches to know what they teach on a week to week basis?

Just a quick drop-in to answer your question, Teresa.

My mother's side has Presbyterian and Catholic congregants; her grandparents were Methodist and Presbyterian...

My father's side has Baptist and Mormon congregants, my grandmother there later became Church of God, Seventh-day...

During my college years, my best friends were of the Catholic, Methodist, and Presbyterians professions...

When I married, I married into a family of German/Polish Lutherans.

Hence, when I progressed down the road of learning what the Bible says about the various doctrines, I also studied in-depth those denominations I had known about all my then-young life.

At the end of that part of my pilgrimage, I joined the SDA church, knowing fully what the other denominations teach regarding tthe topics that distinguish us from the other Christian professions.

My still Lutheran wife of 24 years (23 after I became an Adventist) won't debate me, but she still keeps honest in my learning...

I won't make the claim to perfect knowledge of other professions, but I know enough to be able to make the distinctions between what they do teach and what they don't, with respect to the SDA church.

Sure, I've encounterd some people of other professions who stand closer to the SDA beliefs then the published teachings of their church's leadership. They are the exception rather than the rule.

What I mean by "the SDA church" is what is published by the General Conference. Yes, there are SDA churches who deviate from them, but again, they are the exception rather than the norm.

Been to other SDA churches? Yes, I have. Even to one in the Wasatch Mountains above Salt Lake City (pretty far-flung for me). I've been in the pulpit of one which is constantly beseiged by Davidians - not your normal church setting.

Hope this answers our questions a bit...

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: skyblue

If our message is to tell the world that God personally and directly destroys sinners, what would we be teaching them that they didn't already know?

First they learn folks aren't in hell burning right now for eternity, because a loving God wouldn't do that.

Then they learn about the true Sabbath and what a joy and blessing that is.

Then they find out about the sanctuary and what happened in 1844.

In there somewhere they learn about the gift of prophecy to God's people, and how blessed we are to have that.

Then they learn about the health message. How to eat right and stay healthy, which is what God want's.

They learn how to properly study their Bible and how that is a joy that never ends.

All the things we SDAs take for granted, are new and wonderful to anybody just coming into it.

The list goes on and on.

Everyone knows there is going to be destruction at the end, what they didn't know is that it's not going to last forever.

There are millions of people who have come into the church and love it. Who believe what the Bible says about God destroying the wicked, and they have no problem with it, because it is just, and fair.

I am deeply humbled, Richard, at the completeness and depth of the joy you are able to deliver in the various points of faith, I'm sure as exercised by yourself. I have a deep joy in Jesus myself but am not so adequate at revealing the building of all the points of faith together.

What you have done, at least for me, is to help me see the importance of fulfilled doctrine.

Unless one can experience joy in the doctrines that reveal Jesus, it is only so much theology. However when one can be seen joyfully serving Jesus as a result of their platform of doctrine of the Christ, it is used of the Savior to draw others to a deeper consciousness of Himself. And that is eternal life.

"Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and it is they which testify of Me." John 5:39 21st Century KJV

"And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."John 17:3 21st Century KJV

God's Blessings! :Jesusfish:

[Ted Oplinger]

Where was there an accusation of spiritual blindness?

Not sure there was an outright accusation, but rather reference to such in the face of knowledge.