Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Gail]

Thank you to all! I've been enjoying this discussion!

[LifeHiscost]

of course, i guess, if its "for a good reason" then it isnt really breaking the law?

so as long as God breaks a commandment "for a good reason" and it is not sin, then if we break any commandment "for a good reason" then it is not sin for us either, such as the crusades, as someone mentioned?

I do not believe the commandment is properly translated as "Thou shalt not kill, therefor I cannot address it in the same way you seem to understand it. There is a distinct difference between murder and kill, which places the commandment easily kept when obeying the instruction by God:

"Then Judah went up, and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand; and they killed ten thousand men at Bezek." Judges 1:4 NKJV

OTOH if "Thou shalt not kill" is the correct understanding then it appears that God told the Israelites to break the commandment. Are you satisfied with the inconsistency?

As for the crusades, I am not aware of any direct revelations from the Lord for them to commit their murderous campaigns, even as I do not believe that Allah, if he really were God Almighty, commanded those involved to blow over the world trade center.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes' date=' is ever ready to believe the best of every person"

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP [/quote']even when they act they act like the devil. im just teasing. couldnt let it pass.

I appreciate your humor, but see Jesus as doing just what the text says.

"Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

and spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

for me to make a claim that the first time i sat down with my bible and started reading that i understood perfectly, even after having prayed for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit would be the height of ignorance not to mention stupidity, would it not be?

Genesis 33:14 ..I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, ...

2 Corinthians 3:18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Fully agreed. When speaking to a number of people, not all are in the same position for them to hear God's voice. Therefor it seems wise to let them determine for themselves, of course with the enableing of the Holy Spirit, the clarity necessary.

"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." "Romans 14:5 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

John 8:11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

God would have us work for restoration. will we always be successful? no. but we will have been Christlike and "saved" many.

Agreed! And I hope my last post helped clarify.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Teresaq

i stand with my brother ( )/sister lutz on this one. i am daily learning and growing and daily corrected and reproved. i dont want to believe i ever have it down.

You make many wonderful points sister. They are a blessing indeed. I would agree that we are nowhere near comprehending Gods ways.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:9) "For now we see in a mirror, simly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."(1 Corinthians 13:12)

I would say more as there are some things I find unable to answer in just the short time I have. As to Lutz13 and Teresaq, would we be humble enough if we were to add this to our preaching?

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."1 Timothy 1:15

21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

That is a humble choice but seems not to take into consideration

that is why Jesus became flesh' date=' that the infinite might be understood by the finite.

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."John 16:13 NKJV[/quote']

wow, my brother!

im not sure just what you meant but the way it reads it sounds like you believe we could know God absolutely and our understanding be infallible!!

i stand with my brother/sister lutz on this one. i am daily learning and growing and daily corrected and reproved. i dont want to believe i ever have it down.

I don't recall the word absolutely referred to in any previous posts, although I do find it a goal worthy of reaching toward. It seems good to let the Word speak for itself.

Blessings!

[teresaq]

OTOH if "Thou shalt not kill" is the correct understanding then it appears that God told the Israelites to break the commandment. Are you satisfied with the inconsistency?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

I don't recall the word absolutely referred to in any previous posts, although I do find it a goal worthy of reaching toward. It seems good to let the Word speak for itself.

Blessings!

you appear very good at skirting the issue without actually addressing it. quite a "talent". :dunno:

[Woody]

Quote:

i am daily learning and growing and daily corrected and reproved. i dont want to believe i ever have it down.

Amen Sister. We will never get it right on this earth. Finally in Heaven we will have a thousand years to get it right.

[Woody]

Quote:

You make many wonderful points sister. They are a blessing indeed. I would agree that we are nowhere near comprehending Gods ways.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:9) "For now we see in a mirror, simly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."(1 Corinthians 13:12)

Amen Again.

[skyblue888]

"God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked, but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. He will at last permit the destructive agencies of evil to bear sway to destroy." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.4, p.1171.

[skyblue888]

"The disciples still failed to understand Christ's words in their spiritual sense, and again He explained His meaning. By the Spirit, He said, He would manifest Himself to them. "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things." No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass, darkly. You shall "be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." Eph. 3:18, 19.

[Guest]

I believe that is true sky.

[skyblue888]

Okay, that's good Richard. What about this?

Someone asked me: "I challenge you to find ten people that believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Then ask each one of them from their understanding of the Bible both old and new testaments. Ask them, Does the Bible say that God will punish, or destroy Satan and sinners? I think if you will do this, you will find all ten of ten people will say, Yes the Bible clearly does teach that God will destroy or punish sin, Satan and sinners. And if not all ten agree, most of them will. Because the Bible alone does clearly teach this."

*****************************************************************

I totally agree that if we were to survey 10 people at random on this question as to whether God directly destroys or not (adventists or non-adventists alike) most likely ten out of ten or close to that number would agree to say that God destroys sinners in the sense that His judgments come DIRECTLY out from Him upon them. But this would only prove one thing, and it is this:

"It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are loosing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." For "Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." Christ's Object Lessons,415; Great Controversy,492.

The very fact that the majority of the professed people of God all agree to say that God's judgments directly come out from the Lord upon the wicked prove Mrs. White's statement to be true, and that is that "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented to the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." Selected Messages, Vol.1,355.

This is, to say the very least of it, a very serious charge!

Is it any wonder, then, that the the whole world is in the dark concerning the character of God?

"Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people." Isa.60:2.

Thus we read, "It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time, a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." Christ's Object Lessons, 415.

If we were to listen to what the majority of people are saying, we would have no choice but to believe that this message from God which is to be proclaimed to the whole world is that He destroys sinners, that is, that His judgments come out directly from Him upon them. But the whole world already believes this including the majority of the professed people of God. There are a few, here and there, who do not share this view but the overwhelming majority does.

If our message is to tell the world that God personally and directly destroys sinners, what would we be teaching them that they didn't already know? How could that message be "illuminating in its influence" or "saving in its power"?

sky

[Guest]

If our message is to tell the world that God personally and directly destroys sinners, what would we be teaching them that they didn't already know?

First they learn folks aren't in hell burning right now for eternity, because a loving God wouldn't do that.

Then they learn about the true Sabbath and what a joy and blessing that is.

Then they find out about the sanctuary and what happened in 1844.

In there somewhere they learn about the gift of prophecy to God's people, and how blessed we are to have that.

Then they learn about the health message. How to eat right and stay healthy, which is what God want's.

They learn how to properly study their Bible and how that is a joy that never ends.

All the things we SDAs take for granted, are new and wonderful to anybody just coming into it.

The list goes on and on.

Everyone knows there is going to be destruction at the end, what they didn't know is that it's not going to last forever.

There are millions of people who have come into the church and love it. Who believe what the Bible says about God destroying the wicked, and they have no problem with it, because it is just, and fair.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: skyblue

If our message is to tell the world that God personally and directly destroys sinners, what would we be teaching them that they didn't already know?

First they learn folks aren't in hell burning right now for eternity, because a loving God wouldn't do that.

Then they learn about the true Sabbath and what a joy and blessing that is.

Then they find out about the sanctuary and what happened in 1844.

In there somewhere they learn about the gift of prophecy to God's people, and how blessed we are to have that.

Then they learn about the health message. How to eat right and stay healthy, which is what God want's.

They learn how to properly study their Bible and how that is a joy that never ends.

All the things we SDAs take for granted, are new and wonderful to anybody just coming into it.

The list goes on and on.

Everyone knows there is going to be destruction at the end, what they didn't know is that it's not going to last forever.

There are millions of people who have come into the church and love it. Who believe what the Bible says about God destroying the wicked, and they have no problem with it, because it is just, and fair.

Well, Richard, it's my turn to give the big AMEN on this one!

Very well-put and succinct...

[teresaq]

Okay, that's good Richard. What about this?

Someone asked me: "I challenge you to find ten people that believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Then ask each one of them from their understanding of the Bible both old and new testaments. Ask them, Does the Bible say that God will punish, or destroy Satan and sinners? I think if you will do this, you will find all ten of ten people will say, Yes the Bible clearly does teach that God will destroy or punish sin, Satan and sinners. And if not all ten agree, most of them will. Because the Bible alone does clearly teach this."

***************************************************************If we were to listen to what the majority of people are saying, we would have no choice but to believe that this message from God which is to be proclaimed to the whole world is that He destroys sinners, that is, that His judgments come out directly from Him upon them. But the whole world already believes this including the majority of the professed people of God. There are a few, here and there, who do not share this view but the overwhelming majority does.

this is a very good point!

we arent really very different from other denominations.

[Ted Oplinger]

We'll be reviewing the whole issue after the Resurrection, Brothers and Sisters, and we will have all the information at hand. Furthermore, the tough questions posed - with reference to motive, justice, double standards, and definition - can and will be asked directly to God.

That last one will be a real kicker, for when we get there, suddenly we're not going to want to ask them. But like Jesus dealt with Thomas, He will bring the questions back to memory - because the answers are important, and God is not afraid nor angry to face them.

All will be known as to why the wicked must be...Uncreated, and that God is vindicated in His justice/fairness in the whole issue.

[teresaq]

All will be known as to why the wicked must be...Uncreated, and that God is vindicated in His justice/fairness in the whole issue.

no one is disputing that, unless you can show a specific post on this thread that does.

the disagreement is over how that will be done.

or perhaps the mind automatically says that if God doesnt personally do it then it wont happen?

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Okay, that's good Richard. What about this?

Someone asked me: "I challenge you to find ten people that believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Then ask each one of them from their understanding of the Bible both old and new testaments. Ask them, Does the Bible say that God will punish, or destroy Satan and sinners? I think if you will do this, you will find all ten of ten people will say, Yes the Bible clearly does teach that God will destroy or punish sin, Satan and sinners. And if not all ten agree, most of them will. Because the Bible alone does clearly teach this."

***************************************************************If we were to listen to what the majority of people are saying, we would have no choice but to believe that this message from God which is to be proclaimed to the whole world is that He destroys sinners, that is, that His judgments come out directly from Him upon them. But the whole world already believes this including the majority of the professed people of God. There are a few, here and there, who do not share this view but the overwhelming majority does.

this is a very good point!

we arent really very different from other denominations.

Nah, we're not really that different....except they preach eternal hellfire and punishing, beginning at the moment of death, while we don't....

...they don't preach a real and living Satan, while we do....

...some preach purgatory, the "dry cleaning by fire", just in case one didn't quite make the grade....while we don't....

...they don't preach the involvement of the Sanctuary in the vindication of God's character....while we do (or are supposed to be...)

We preach the the 3rd Angel's message, warning against the Mark of the Beast and its commensury fate called eternal death...while they don't...

We preach obedience to all commandments for both here, and in eternal life ahead...they pick and choose...

We preach an Investigative Judgement...they don't...

Are we really like the other denominations in general? I'm thinking there might be just a teensy bit of difference...but that might just be me...

Happy Sabbath!

[Guest]

Very well put, Ted.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

All will be known as to why the wicked must be...Uncreated, and that God is vindicated in His justice/fairness in the whole issue.

no one is disputing that, unless you can show a specific post on this thread that does.

the disagreement is over how that will be done.

or perhaps the mind automatically says that if God doesnt personally do it then it wont happen?

Not sayin' it's disputed, and left it purposefully vague as to how and by who it comes to pass.

I'm getting into this thread reeeeeally late in the game, and late at night, to boot.

It's going to take a bit to read back over the last 14 pages (according to my screen settings) to find out who said what...and that won't happen this late at night.

Thanks for the input, though.

Ted

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Well, Richard, it's my turn to give the big AMEN on this one!

Very well-put and succinct...

As I also admit the breadth of the truth pointed out very understandably. Praise God!

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

we aren't really very different from other denominations.

One of the main differences is the sanctuary message, held by Seventh Day Adventists almost exclusively, that pointed to Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb. Many see God in the old testament as far different than the God of the new, although in some cases that probably is changing. Some I'm aware of feel that message is largely irrelevant.

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness." 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 NKJV

Blessings!