Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

Nah' date=' we're not really that different....except they preach eternal hellfire and punishing, beginning at the moment of death, while we don't....

...they don't preach a real and living Satan, while we do....

...some preach purgatory, the "dry cleaning by fire", just in case one didn't quite make the grade....while we don't....

...they don't preach the involvement of the Sanctuary in the vindication of God's character....while we do (or are supposed to be...)

We preach the the 3rd Angel's message, warning against the Mark of the Beast and its commensury fate called eternal death...while they don't...

We preach obedience to all commandments for both here, and in eternal life ahead...they pick and choose...

We preach an Investigative Judgement...they don't...

Are we really like the other denominations in general? I'm thinking there might be just a teensy bit of difference...but that might just be me...

Happy Sabbath! [/quote']

Thanks for reminding me of a number of the major issues that Adventists propose, as revealed in the Word. More often than not these issues never reach the consciousness of the non-adventist until they make a decision for Christ when invited in an Adventist effort. Revealing, IMO, the importance of putting acceptance of Jesus as first priority when delivering the gospel.

Blessings!

[teresaq]

Nah, we're not really that different....except they preach eternal hellfire and punishing, beginning at the moment of death, while we don't....

...they don't preach a real and living Satan, while we do....

...some preach purgatory, the "dry cleaning by fire", just in case one didn't quite make the grade....while we don't....

...they don't preach the involvement of the Sanctuary in the vindication of God's character....while we do (or are supposed to be...)

We preach the the 3rd Angel's message, warning against the Mark of the Beast and its commensury fate called eternal death...while they don't...

We preach obedience to all commandments for both here, and in eternal life ahead...they pick and choose...

We preach an Investigative Judgement...they don't...

Are we really like the other denominations in general? I'm thinking there might be just a teensy bit of difference...but that might just be me...

what do you base your information on?

i mean what do you know of what other churches teach?

and have you been in all of the sda churches to know what they teach on a week to week basis?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

we aren't really very different from other denominations.

One of the main differences is the sanctuary message, held by Seventh Day Adventists almost exclusively, that pointed to Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb. Many see God in the old testament as far different than the God of the new, although in some cases that probably is changing. Some I'm aware of feel that message is largely irrelevant.

wow!!

what church doesnt believe Christ to be the sacrificial lamb?

[Woody]

Good Question teresaq. We ARE united with most of the other Christian churches with the central and most important issues of Salvation by Faith.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

One of the main differences is the sanctuary message' date=' held by Seventh Day Adventists almost exclusively, that pointed to Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb. Many see God in the old testament as far different than the God of the new, although in some cases that probably is changing. Some I'm aware of feel that message is largely irrelevant. [/quote']wow!!

what church doesnt believe Christ to be the sacrificial lamb?

I think he's talking about our understanding of the Santuary in heaven here, more so than just the sacrificial lamb. It actually is the one doctrine that separates us from all other churches, other than the Sabbath.

The Sunday churches don't have any idea of the work taking place in the Heavenly Santuary right now, or how it ties in to our salvation.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

I think he's talking about our understanding of the Santuary in heaven here, more so than just the sacrificial lamb. It actually is the one doctrine that separates us from all other churches, other than the Sabbath.

The Sunday churches don't have any idea of the work taking place in the Heavenly Santuary right now, or how it ties in to our salvation.

first there are other churches, tho extremely rare other than the jews, that believe in the seventh day sabbath.

but how do you see other churches understanding in this area, the work that is going on in the sanctuary above, and how it ties in to our salvation?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It is said that God is not only love, but He is also just. Is it necessary to be violent in order to be just?

In reading through this thread, it seems to me that justice by some is being equated with violence, and implied that if God does not act with violence, then He is not being just.

But where does violence come from? Did it exist before sin came about? Was it something hidden within God's character, and not revealed (like mercy or grace) before sin came into being? Or was it a result of sin?

If it's a result of sin, does it make sense to assert that God would make use of it?

God has said he will destroy the wicked with fire. I won't speculate as to where this comes from, but it is refered to as his strange act. Is it violence? I don't know. We don't know how much pain they will actually feel.

it seems to me that raining down fire on people would be considered violence, no?

i mean if someone fires a nuclear missel at us, wouldnt that be considered violence?

and when we "rained fire"-the atomic bomb- on hiroshima that was violence wasnt it?

[Guest]

I stopped arguing about that two days ago.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

God has said he will destroy the wicked with fire. I won't speculate as to where this comes from, but it is refered to as his strange act. Is it violence? I don't know. We don't know how much pain they will actually feel. [/quote']it seems to me that raining down fire on people would be considered violence, no?

i mean if someone fires a nuclear missel at us, wouldnt that be considered violence?

and when we "rained fire"-the atomic bomb- on hiroshima that was violence wasnt it?

Our good and gracious God has been presented to us clothed in the attributes of Satan because tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the principles of His government, and His dealing with sin.

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

sky

[Guest]

She's not talking about the destruction of the wicked there.

[Guest]

If our message is to tell the world that God personally and directly destroys sinners, what would we be teaching them that they didn't already know?

First they learn folks aren't in hell burning right now for eternity, because a loving God wouldn't do that.

Then they learn about the true Sabbath and what a joy and blessing that is.

Then they find out about the sanctuary and what happened in 1844.

In there somewhere they learn about the gift of prophecy to God's people, and how blessed we are to have that.

Then they learn about the health message. How to eat right and stay healthy, which is what God want's.

They learn how to properly study their Bible and how that is a joy that never ends.

All the things we SDAs take for granted, are new and wonderful to anybody just coming into it.

The list goes on and on.

Everyone knows there is going to be destruction at the end, what they didn't know is that it's not going to last forever.

There are millions of people who have come into the church and love it. Who believe what the Bible says about God destroying the wicked, and they have no problem with it, because it is just, and fair.

[skyblue888]

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

She's not talking about the destruction of the wicked there.

How do u know that Richard? When people see God as a destroyer they have a hard time seeing how He could be a God of love. Do this or else I will destroy you! Is that how we are to look upon God?

sky

[Guest]

Because I looked it up and read it in it's context.

[skyblue888]

The context is righteousness by faith and the relation between the law and the righteousness of Christ. People have a hard time accepting or desiring His righteousness if they see Him as a vengeful God.

[Guest]

I don't see him as a vengeful God.

[skyblue888]

Im not talking about you, im talking about what the statement says.

When people are looking at a God who pours fire on the hapless heads of those who refuse His offers of mercy, you don't think they will see Him as a vengeful God?

This is the way the whole world sees God because tradition and misintepretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning His character and this is the way the majority of adventists see Him too in spite of the fact that the Lord has let His light shine upon us telling us in no uncertain terms that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Everyone knows there is going to be destruction at the end, what they didn't know is that it's not going to last forever.

[Guest]

What does the Bible and Ellen White say? Lethal injection?

[teresaq]

I stopped arguing about that two days ago.

ok, didnt know that. :)

[teresaq]

Quote:

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

sky

She's not talking about the destruction of the wicked there.

shes talking about how people view God which includes what He will or wont do, including the destruction of the lost of which our God shall mourn for for eternity.

[Guest]

I couldn't resist.

[teresaq]

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

She's not talking about the destruction of the wicked there.

How do u know that Richard? When people see God as a destroyer they have a hard time seeing how He could be a God of love. Do this or else I will destroy you! Is that how we are to look upon God?

which leads people to serve Him out of fear instead of love.

God never forces the will or the conscience, but Satan's constant resort--to gain control of those whom he cannot otherwise seduce--is compulsion by cruelty. Through fear or force he endeavors to rule the conscience and to secure homage to himself.--GC 591 (1888). {1MCP 325.1}

He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love.

The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator;

it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God. By perverted conceptions of the divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favor of Deity; and horrible cruelties have been perpetrated under the various forms of idolatry. {GC 569.1}

[teresaq]

I don't see him as a vengeful God.

how do you define vengeful?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: RichardHolbrook

Everyone knows there is going to be destruction at the end, what they didn't know is that it's not going to last forever.

Is this the only question involved, whether the destruction is eternal or not? Or is another question to consider what the destruction consists of?

Quote:

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. ...

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. (GC 535, 536)

Is the only difference in our view and that of other Christians that we're not dealing with "unceasing tortures" but with "tortures" that only last for "many hours" or "many days"?

[LifeHiscost]

I think he's talking about our understanding of the Santuary in heaven here, more so than just the sacrificial lamb. It actually is the one doctrine that separates us from all other churches, other than the Sabbath.

The Sunday churches don't have any idea of the work taking place in the Heavenly Santuary right now, or how it ties in to our salvation.

Richard's response more or less gives the answer you asked me,

teresaq. While I'm not acquainted with large numbers of other denominations, the 3 or 4 I have had opportunity to worship with seemed clearly to focus on the cross and human behavior only, as opposed to actually believing Jesus is occupied in Heaven preparing in any important aspect of future usefulness for our homecoming.

When the subject did come up, if it did re: the sanctuary services in the holy place or the most holy place, it seemed a rather uncomfortable silence would be the normal response prior to changing the subject.

This does not surprise me nor discomfit me to any great measure, for I believe the Holy Spirit is more actively drawing people to the church where the Word will reflect the unified wisdom and knowledge accepted when He, the Holy Spirit, reveals it.

"...and when He may come -- the Spirit of truth -- He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you"

John 16:13 YLT

Blessings!