Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Gail]

We are told in the New Testament to respect governments for this reason- 2 Tim.13:4, that they are God-appointed.

We are not talking about despots, but governments, although in Paul's time one can argue that the authority (Romans) were headed by Caesars that were despotic. It was in that context that he gave that counsel, nonetheless.

[skyblue888]

But CHrist also picked up a whip to drive out money changers to protest the abuse of the temple as God's house...

Mercy is in balance with justice.

Gail, of course mercy is in balance with justice. There was no possibility of Christ's striking them with the scourge. That was not His purpose in raising it. It hung threateningly over them, but while in Christ's hands, it never touched them. Christ in the temple assured them that there was yet time to repent, for He still retained control of the scourge. Thus, no great disasters overtook them during His earthly sojourn. Christ's action was a warning of the danger that their unheeding apostasy would compel Him to release His grip. Should this happen, then the experience of the Egyptians would also be theirs. It is a matter of history that they refused to repent. They turned their backs utterly and defiantly upon God, and the rod did become a serpent of desctruction as is evidenced by the devastation and slaughter in Jerusalem in A.D.70. The rod becoming a serpent signifies the time when God is forced to withdraw His restraining power from the agencies of evil so that there is no power left to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

This is how mercy is balance with justice.

See G.C.35,36,28,

sky

*the most significant difference lay in the fact that while Moses allowed the rod to pass out of his hands and control, Christ did not lose either His grip or His control over the scourge.

[Twilight]

I have placed a branch off of this topic here:

http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/275737.html#Post275737

So we can discuss this particular point in detail.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

I agree with all that.

Were the civil laws that Moses wrote down in a book instituted by God or Moses? They were punitive, but I agree that they also were to protect the innocent.

for me it seems that it is two different issues.

does God Himself kill, destroy.

does He allow or mandate for man to kill, destroy.

i know that they are related but i dont see how the fact that there were civil laws appointed by God would prove that He Himself kills or destroys.

do you see my point?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I was under the impression you were talking about the taking of life. Murder is with malice. When God takes life it is not murder. In fact He is merciful when removing a life that has nothing to look forward to other than the misery caused by living outside the parameters of God's injunctions....

the law states, thou shalt not kill. the "law is a transcript of Gods character."

so does God kill?

true

false

i dont know

i wont list each commandment so as not to make this post too long.

remember the sabbath day.....

does God ever break this commandment?

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

has God ever committed adultery?

Thou shalt not steal.

has God ever stolen?

so for me, to answer the question of whether or not God kills involves taking multiple perspectives into consideration.

The commandment can actually be translated "thou shall not murder".

Otherwise God commanded the Isrealites to throw their own salvation away, but sinning when carrying out His will.

Mark

[Guest]

Good point Mark

[Lutz13]

The commandment can actually be translated "thou shall not murder".

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

the law states' date=' thou shalt not kill. the "law is a transcript of Gods character."

so does God kill?

true

false

i dont know

i wont list each commandment so as not to make this post too long.

...Thou shalt not commit adultery.

has God ever committed adultery?

... [/quote']

The commandment can actually be translated "thou shall not murder".

Otherwise God commanded the Isrealites to throw their own salvation away, but sinning when carrying out His will.

Mark

good logic. i have heard the "distinction" before but had no idea why it had been made, or attempted, i should say.

so we are saying there is a difference between killing someone and murdering them?

would God back up our distinction?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

the law states' date=' thou shalt not kill. the "law is a transcript of Gods character."

so does God kill?

true

false

i dont know

i wont list each commandment so as not to make this post too long.

remember the sabbath day.....

does God ever break this commandment?

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

has God ever committed adultery?

Thou shalt not steal.

has God ever stolen?

so for me, to answer the question of whether or not God kills involves taking multiple perspectives into consideration.

[/quote']

The commandment can actually be translated "thou shall not murder".

Otherwise God commanded the Isrealites to throw their own salvation away, but sinning when carrying out His will.

Mark

did God break any of the other commandments in any form?

[Lutz13]

would God back up our distinction?

The crusaders would say yes.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

I agree with all that.

Were the civil laws that Moses wrote down in a book instituted by God or Moses? They were punitive, but I agree that they also were to protect the innocent.

for me it seems that it is two different issues.

does God Himself kill, destroy.

does He allow or mandate for man to kill, destroy.

i know that they are related but i dont see how the fact that there were civil laws appointed by God would prove that He Himself kills or destroys.

do you see my point?

I think I do... I was wondering about the capital punishment part of those laws. If those laws were God-ordained, and the law for adulterers called for stoning, is that killing, and is it God's will that those laws be carried out? Were the Israelites at fault for carrying out those laws?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

for me it seems that it is two different issues.

does God Himself kill, destroy.

does He allow or mandate for man to kill, destroy.

i know that they are related but i dont see how the fact that there were civil laws appointed by God would prove that He Himself kills or destroys.

do you see my point? [/quote']

I think I do... I was wondering about the capital punishment part of those laws. If those laws were God-ordained, and the law for adulterers called for stoning, is that killing, and is it God's will that those laws be carried out? Were the Israelites at fault for carrying out those laws?

should we move this over to the new thread or continue here?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

for me it seems that it is two different issues.

does God Himself kill, destroy.

does He allow or mandate for man to kill, destroy.

i know that they are related but i dont see how the fact that there were civil laws appointed by God would prove that He Himself kills or destroys.

do you see my point? [/quote']

I think I do... I was wondering about the capital punishment part of those laws. If those laws were God-ordained, and the law for adulterers called for stoning, is that killing, and is it God's will that those laws be carried out? Were the Israelites at fault for carrying out those laws?

We are discussing something similar on the other thread about God ordering an execution Gail.

Mark :-)

[Gail]

Okay- found it!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gail

I agree with all that.

Were the civil laws that Moses wrote down in a book instituted by God or Moses? They were punitive, but I agree that they also were to protect the innocent.

for me it seems that it is two different issues.

does God Himself kill, destroy.

does He allow or mandate for man to kill, destroy.

i know that they are related but i dont see how the fact that there were civil laws appointed by God would prove that He Himself kills or destroys.

do you see my point?

Hopefully all agree that "man" did not pull the wrong lever and cause a world wide flood killing all humans on the planet.

And I also think we all agree that "man" does not resurrect the wicked at the end of the 1000 years and then cast them all into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

good logic. i have heard the "distinction" before but had no idea why it had been made, or attempted, i should say.

so we are saying there is a difference between killing someone and murdering them?

would God back up our distinction?

Imagine this.

Gunman walks into a school and starts shooting children.

Policeman shoots him.

Has he murdered?

Mark

[Lutz13]

Hopefully all agree that "man" did not pull the wrong lever and cause a world wide flood killing all humans on the planet.

[BobRyan]

Are we to ignore the text that says "Satan is killed by the hands of men"? Just curious.

OK - I'll bite -- what text says "Satan is killed by the hands of men"??

Bob

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Are we to ignore the text that says "Satan is killed by the hands of men"? Just curious.

OK - I'll bite -- what text says "Satan is killed by the hands of men"??

Bob

"Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,' says the Lord God."(Ezekiel 28:9-10)

How would you interpret that text? I could be wrong, but it shows that someone other than God killing Satan.

[Guest]

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:9

How would you interpret that text?

[Lutz13]

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:9

How would you interpret that text?

So do we now have an example of a contradiction here?

[Guest]

There are more texts that say fire from God.

[Lutz13]

There are more texts that say fire from God.

So then does that mean Ezekiel was not inspired?

[Guest]

No it means you have to find out what he was saying.

[Guest]

There are texts that say you will burn forever an ever, but we know that's not the case.