Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[skyblue888]

"Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: Is this not the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities..." Isaiah 14:16-17.

Put your glasses on Richard!!!

[Guest]

Not a word about Sodom and Gommorrah.

[skyblue888]

It says clearly that Satan is responsible for all the cities that were destroyed. That would include Sodom and Gomorrah.

"Satan is the destroyer" Richard, not God. God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression. This is a principle that is always true no matter how the Scriptures seem to be saying the opposite. It is only an apparent contradiction because the principle is always true as the following will demonstrate:

"The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." G.C.35,36.

This is true for every city that was and will be destroyed.

sky

[Guest]

Then why did God tell Abraham HE was going to do it.

[Guest]

Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." G.C.35,36.

I read the whole quote, and it dosn't actually say that satan destroyed Jerusalem. You're stretching it.

[skyblue888]

Then why did God tell Abraham He was going to do it.

Richard

_____________________________________________________

The same way God always says He is going to do this or to do that, like to send the flood or to harden the heart of Pharaoh or to send strong delusion to those who do not believe the truth, or to send fire down from heaven or to slay king Saul, etc, etc. It is always the same language and we have the pen of inspiration helping us understand what that language means. I just quoted from The Great Controversy pp.35 and 36 where Mrs. White clearly says that it was Satan who destroyed Jerusalem and that he is seeking to make it look like it was by the direct decree of God to deceive us. Do you believe what the prophet says or not?

sky

[skyblue888]

"Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." G.C.35.

Did u not read that? And if this is not clear to you, then read the following words:

"The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." G.C.28.

What more evidence do you want?

sky

[Guest]

All that she says there is true, but she does not say Satan destroyed it. You're reading that into it.

[skyblue888]

All that she says there is true, but she does not say Satan destroyed it. You're reading that into it.

What do you mean? I am not reading that into it. Have you lost your bearings Richard? come on!!!

"Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." G.C.35.

She says here that the destruction of Jerusalem was Satan's own work!!!!

"The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." G.C.28.

And here she says clearly that the nation was left to the control of Satan and his angels as soon as God withrew His protection from them!!!

How could you miss that Richard???!!!!

sky

[Guest]

"Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." G.C.35.

This has always been true. But it is a general statement. She does not say that the destruction of Jerusalem was Satan's own work. Those are your words.

I did some reading and it looks to me like the Romans did it.

>>>And here she says clearly that the nation was left to the control of Satan and his angels as soon as God withrew His protection from them<<<

You could say Satan had a hand in it, but it dosn't say flat out that Satan destroyed it.

[LifeHiscost]

Remember Richard, this principle is always true: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36. It does not matter if it is at the time of Sodom and Gomorrah or even at the time of the flood or at the end of the days. That principle is always true because God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever! "The principles of His dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

sky

" Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”"

Jonah 3:1-4 NKJV

"But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it."

Jonah 3:8-10 NKJV

"Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, each of them will turn from his wicked way; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin.""Jeremiah 36:3 NIV

"Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered"Ezekiel 3:2 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Then why did God tell Abraham He was going to do it.

Richard

_____________________________________________________

The same way God always says He is going to do this or to do that, like to send the flood or to harden the heart of Pharaoh or to send strong delusion to those who do not believe the truth, or to send fire down from heaven or to slay king Saul, etc, etc. It is always the same language and we have the pen of inspiration helping us understand what that language means. I just quoted from The Great Controversy pp.35 and 36 where Mrs. White clearly says that it was Satan who destroyed Jerusalem and that he is seeking to make it look like it was by the direct decree of God to deceive us. Do you believe what the prophet says or not?

sky

Come to think of it, it is hard to believe that when the Israelites were on the shores of the Red Sea (hope that's the right body of water), he allowed them to cross over on dry land after a big wind came up, then he let the Egyptians perish by allowing the waters cover them so the Israelites could escape.

This Scripture answers it for me, at least for some of the responsibility.

"Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."

Matt 12:22-30 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Yeah, that's true, but it might come up when you're talking to Moses, or David, or somebody like that.

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."Hebrews 10:17 KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That's pretty much it Mark. Very well said!

Thank you.

sky

*teresaq's post was very enlightening. [/quote']

Now this scenario above does not fit with the bible on points one and two as far as I can see.

1. That type would have to be drawn from scripture.

2. This point would also have to be drawn from scripture.

It is not there as far as I can see and I am therefore cautious that this is human speculation, rather than a biblical position.

I am not reffering to SOP right now as our doctrines should be drawn from the bible only, but if you have light from SOP where this doctrine is in the bible I would be interested.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Sky :-)

My friend, when we discussed the issue of Satan being turned on by humanity, does it say that he is destroyed by them?

Is that detail supplied?

Because we are told scripturally it is fire that burns up Satan, that it is the lake of fire he is cast into.

Mark

[skyblue888]

Sky :-)

My friend, when we discussed the issue of Satan being turned on by humanity, does it say that he is destroyed by them?

Is that detail supplied?

Because we are told scripturally it is fire that burns up Satan, that it is the lake of fire he is cast into.

Mark

Yes it does Mark. Re-read Ezekiel 28:6-10 and then read what Mrs. White says in G.C.672. I have already shared these references with you guys!!!

sky

[skyblue888]

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, The most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defil your splendor. They shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord God." Exekiel 28:6-10.

The Lord says, "I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations."

This is at the time of the second resurrection. The Lord will bring all the unsaved to life again and there will come the time when all these people will agree to put the blame upon Satan and his angels for being eternally lost just as all the wicked will be looking for a scapegoat at the time of the sixth plague as they will agree to put the blame upon the false shepherds for their being lost and they will turn upon them with a fury, with a vengeance, and there will be strife and bloodshed everywhere. Anyone can read this from The Great Controversy, pp.635,636,655,656. This scenario will be repeated on a larger scale after the 1,000 years at the time of the executive judgment. The unsaved of all ages will turn against Satan and his angels and they will bring them down into the Pit as the prophet clealy stated. They will die in the midst of the "seas" by the hand of aliens. The "seas" here represent all the unsaved of all ages gathered for this great battle, the greatest battle ever fought upon this earth. It will be the battle of the ages as far as all the wicked of all ages turning against Satan and his angels is concerned. This battle will last a while. It will bring untold suffering to all but especially to Satan and his evil angels and at last they will die at the very hand of those they had had tempted and deceived.

God will not interfere when the unsaved turn upon Satan and his angels with the fury of demons.

The Great Controversy confirms that this is exactly what will take place.

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them."

I don't know how these passages of Scripture or how the pen of inspiration could have made this any clearer.

As you can see, there is no "human speculation" on my part here, Mark!

sky

[Lutz13]

Some things to keep in mind #1:

Richard, you had mentioned something about "Why did God say He was going to do it?" Here is something to think about.

"Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."(2 Samuel 12:11) Here we have God saying I will do this to you. Here is what you need to think about. Did God do it?

Here is the fulfillment: "So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went into his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."(2 Samuel 16:22) What God said He would do, happened.

Now here is what the Spirit of Prophecy says concerning this.

"For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them."{Patriarchs and Prophets: p.739}

Here is one more: "...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(Samuel 31:4) Saul killed himself right? "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11)

I could find many many many more but I pray you understand this point.

[skyblue888]

"Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." G.C.35.

This has always been true. But it is a general statement. She does not say that the destruction of Jerusalem was Satan's own work. Those are your words.

I did some reading and it looks to me like the Romans did it.

>>>And here she says clearly that the nation was left to the control of Satan and his angels as soon as God withrew His protection from them<<<

You could say Satan had a hand in it, but it dosn't say flat out that Satan destroyed it.

_____________________________________

Richard, my brother, I beg you pardon! These are not my own words!!! How can you possibly make a statement like this my brother? These words cannot be controverted. "It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work," speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Satan was the invisible general who led the Roman armies to besiege Jerusalem because they had forfeited God's protection. They were now at the mercy of Satan, the leader they had chosen as we are told in G.C. p.28. Satan is seeking to conceal his own work of desctruciton because he wants us to believe that it was God who in anger destroyed them. But the Bible says clearly that the Jews were responsible for their own destruction, that they destroyed themselves, which simply means that they resisted the light sent to them so that in the end God's restraining power was removed from the evil agencies and then they had no more power to control the evil passions of the soul and no more protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. See G.C.36.

And the destruction of Jerusalem is a type of what will happen to the whole world when probation shall close. The same scenario will be repeated. At that time it is written that "Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent." G.C.614. And yet his work of destruction at that time is represented by God's angels pouring out the vials of God's wrath upon the world. This simply means, as we have already seen, that God will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335; P.P.98, 8 T 50.

This is so clear that a child can understand it.

sky

[Lutz13]

Some things to keep in mind #2:

After the second resurrection, there is a time when every knee shall bow down before God. I believe that is when God reveals everything to the wicked as they are marching on the city.

This is just something to consider. I am not saying this is how it is going to be, because I see through a glass darkly.

In Isaiah we see a people who look upon Lucifer and say: "...Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities..."(Isaiah 14:16) Then in Ezekiel 28: "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,' says the Lord God."(Ezekiel 28:9-10)

Is this the man who made the earth tremble....? You shall be a man in the hand of him who slays you... These two statements are pretty clear. Satan makes a claim that he is their god, but they know it can't be true. He is nothing but a man and they say...Is this the man who made the earth tremble...

So here God says that Satan dies at the hands of strangers. Are we to ignore this statement? Or perhaps pray and understand?

[BobRyan]

In the bible people suffer because of sin "in the first life".

Adam and Eve are expelled by God from Eden -- so that they will die instead of having access to the tree of life and living forever.

God sends a world-wide flood to destroy all of mankind except for 8.

Mankind post-flood dies younger and younger from age 900 down to age 90 and lower.

Sickness and war, and famine (starvation) also contribute to the death of man "in the first life".

People go to jail for crime.

God does not come to earth and "make you sick" or "take your food away today". We suffer most of this due to the effects of our sin and/or the effects of sin in general.

It is the same with our natural process vs divine-creation discussions. Most things (weeds growing in the yard for example) are not happing because God comes down and forms a weed of the dust of the ground and then causes it to spring to life.

Yet - God DID at one time create all the plants and created man etc in a supernatural way.

In the same way - not all result of sin is God coming down and personnally putting a criminal behind bars.

Yet that does not mean he never slays an Annanias or Saphira or Soddom and Gomorra or the generation of Noah. He does that too -- even in the "first life".

By contrast -- the "second life" and the "second death" are all God.

At the start -- all the wicked humans are already dead - of whatever causes in "the first life". So God changes that.

None of the wicked "gets better health" as a dead person and then comes to life. God supernaturally raises them to life.

Nobody gets "sick" in the lake of fire and then dies of illness or old age.

The wicked are NOT consumed as they stand - surrounding the city and are witnessing God in the New Jerusalem and the final Corronation of Christ. They are NOT consumed as the judgment is witnessed and reviewed. Only at the end - does God consume them.

The same fire that melts the rocks and reforms the earth - consumes the wicked who are placed in that exposed position by God -- while He supernaturally protects the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Some things to keep in mind #1:

Richard, you had mentioned something about "Why did God say He was going to do it?" Here is something to think about.

"Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."(2 Samuel 12:11) Here we have God saying I will do this to you. Here is what you need to think about. Did God do it?

Here is the fulfillment: "So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went into his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."(2 Samuel 16:22) What God said He would do, happened.

Now here is what the Spirit of Prophecy says concerning this.

"For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them."

Here is one more: "...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(Samuel 31:4) Saul killed himself right? "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11)

I could find many many many more but I pray you understand this point.

__________________________________________________________

Excellent! Why can't we accept the inspired interpretation? Is it because we know that if we say "yes" to this we will have to say "yes" to more and may be we are not prepared to receive all the light that God has for us on this stupendous topic!!!

But there comes a time in the history of this movement when God will no longer wait for us who are lagging behind. If we refuse the light that He is sending to us we will be left behind, and I say this will all respect. This is what happened to the Jews in Christ's day. For centuries the Lord was patient with them but there came a time when they were given a last opportunity to accept the light, in Christ's day. Sadly they resisted the light and they crucified Jesus out of this world! Let us beware that we do not repeat their history in these last days of this earth's history.

This message is just as important to receive as accepting that there is salvation for us but only through the merits of Jesus Christ or that though God's throne is in Heaven yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present, working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness.

The Lord has not left us in the dark as to what He means when He says, I will do this or I will do that. What Lutz quoted from P.P. sets the pattern for every other instance where in the Bible God is using similar language. But will we learn from Him? will we accept to be taught of Him? That is the question.

sky

[skyblue888]

Some things to keep in mind #2:

After the second resurrection, there is a time when every knee shall bow down before God. I believe that is when God reveals everything to the wicked as they are marching on the city.

This is just something to consider. I am not saying this is how it is going to be, because I see through a glass darkly.

In Isaiah we see a people who look upon Lucifer and say: "...Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities..."(Isaiah 14:16) Then in Ezekiel 28: "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,' says the Lord God."(Ezekiel 28:9-10)

Is this the man who made the earth tremble....? You shall be a man in the hand of him who slays you... These two statements are pretty clear. Satan makes a claim that he is their god, but they know it can't be true. He is nothing but a man and they say...Is this the man who made the earth tremble...

So here God says that Satan dies at the hands of strangers. Are we to ignore this statement? Or perhaps pray and understand?

You are repeating exactly what I have presented in an earlier post. Did you notice that brother?

You say you do not know if this is what is going to be, just something to consider, because you are seeing as in a glass darkly! My brother let me tell you that you are not seeing as in a glass darkly but you are seing God's light as He is in the light. This is the truth of God and we can expect that the majority will resist it because prejudices and opinions usually prevail when the Lord sends us light. This is what happened to the Jews, to the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages, and to the Adventist in 1844 and in 1888.

The pen of inspiration has made this issue so clear that we have absolutely no excuse to reject the light.

Some of us, instead of taking the time to prayerfully consider what is being presented are looking for every possible objection that they can find. This is not the way the pioneers of this movement arrived at the truth.

sky

[Lutz13]

You are repeating exactly what I have presented in an earlier post. Did you notice that brother?

Yeah, I read what you said but I think it is important to keep bringing up because it goes ignored. I remember bringing this up countless times in another thread that is now buried.

I think many of us are guilty(myself included) of not seeing the large picture. We focus on a few things that say this or that. Yet ignore the text that clearly says something. Such as:

"Will you still say before him who slays you..." Isn't God saying here that Satan is put to death by someone else?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Skyblue888

You are repeating exactly what I have presented in an earlier post. Did you notice that brother?

Yeah, I read what you said but I think it is important to keep bringing up because it goes ignored. I remember bringing this up countless times in another thread that is now buried.

I think many of us are guilty(myself included) of not seeing the large picture. We focus on a few things that say this or that. Yet ignore the text that clearly says something. Such as:

"Will you still say before him who slays you..." Isn't God saying here that Satan is put to death by someone else?

Yes He is Luzt. This passage and many others cannot be controverted. They are as clear as the Lord can possibly make them for us. They were there all the time and yet look how long it has taken us to see what they are saying. This is a perfect example of how the Bible is its own interpreter.

You know Mrs. White made a statement to the effect that "The prejudices and opinions that prevailed at Minneapolis are not dead by any means." T.M.467.

Let us hope and pray that the Lord will open the eyes of those who are willing to see and understand.

sky

*have we met before?