Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

That quote is not even dealing with what we are talking about.

Deal with this first:

You do not see that in Job, the Bible is not ascribing the fire to God, but that it is a bystander saying the fire came from God?

Then Deal with this:

I didn't say that the fire will get the best of Satan in the end. That is a given. I said the entire solar system will be burned up. Man made fire cannot do this.

The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. {EW 54}

If God didn't burn up Sodom and Gommorrah, and all the people in it, then who did?

Was it a kitchen fire, or an arsonist?

[Woody]

There are a couple verses in the Bible that say that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." God did not directly harden his heart. It is just a language that we need to understand. It simply means that when God sends light to soften our hearts and we resist that light, there is a hardening that takes place which makes it more difficult to accept that same light when He sends it the second time. It is only in that sense that the Bible says that God hardens a man's heart.

"It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible. Light comes to the soul through God's word, through His servants, or by the direct agency of His Spirit; but when one ray of light is disregarded, there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions, and the second revealing of light is less clearly discerned. So the darkness increases, until it is night in the soul. Thus it had been with these Jewish leaders. They were convinced that a divine power attended Christ, but in order to resist the truth, they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. In doing this they deliberately chose deception; they yielded themselves to Satan, and henceforth they were controlled by his power." D.A.322.

This statement says that it is not God that hardens a man's heart and yet the language of the Bible says that He hardened Pharaoh's heart!

sky

Oh Well . No prophet is perfect. We need to give her some slack.

[skyblue888]

"The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth." {EW 54}

I don't disagree with that one bit. That fire is said to come from God and it will but not in the way we usally think Richard. Did you read Ezekiel 28:18 yet? How come in one place it says it will come from God out of heaven and then in Ezekiel it says it will come from Satan's midst?

Can you explain that for me?

Red, in this case, do we need to give the Bible some slack too or wait for the Lord to teach us what He means?

sky

[phkrause]

Here's what the Torah has to say about this, Genesis 19:24 "And the Lord caused to rain down upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the Lord, from heaven."

pk

[Woody]

Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. I trust God and His Word. That is good enough for me. I am not into 'man's' private interpretation.

[Guest]

"The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth." {EW 54}

I don't disagree with that one bit. That fire is said to come from God and it will but not in the way we usally think Richard. Did you read Ezekiel 28:18 yet? How come in one place it says it will come from God out of heaven and then in Ezekiel it says it will come from Satan's midst?

Can you explain that for me?

Yes, I was going to use that text. That tells where the fire starts. Inside of Satan, in the middle of his person. That's where God starts the fire. And there is a quote to that effect, if I can find it.

I...I will bring... fire from the midst of thee.

The Bible and SOP is so plain on this. You are using one quote to refute many quotes to the contrary.

[Lutz13]

And any fire that man can start, will not be sufficient to burn up the whole solar system.

The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. {EW 54}

She does not mince words here. She says the fire comes from GOD.

Just curious. Where does it say that the whole solar system is fried? Also we can burn up the whole earth right now.

Scripture also says that Jesus was "...Smitten by God, and afflicted."(Isaiah 53:4) "Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered."(Matthew 26:31) Did God strike Jesus and kill Him? Of course not, He permitted it to happen. "Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."(John 19:11) This is an undeniable fact when dealing the wrath of God. He claims to do what He permits to happen. Sin killed Jesus, not God the Father.

However this still doesn't really explain Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus spoke with Abraham concerning those cities. "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?"(Genesis 18:17)

[teresaq]

Who? What do you mean Richard? It is about you checking Job 1:9 to 16 and see for yourself whether what I have said is true or not. Please Richard. Do not wait to see if others can see this before you believe. If you do, you will go on in darkness! So please Richard, check these references for yourself.

Do not be afraid. This is a deep subject and it is important that we understand the principles underlying it. We need every ray of light that the Lord sends to us.

sky

actually take your time, richard, if you dont mind my 2 cents, and let the Lord work on your heart one way or the other.

i havent heard skys understanding before, but will give it consideration, tho i am very familiar with the texts and statements hes using. i have heard somewhat similar.

my understanding had been that the wicked turned on each other and there was universal strife as the messenger of the Lord said, but then God rained down fire to put an end to it.

i am open to the possibility there may be texts/statements that i have not seen yet.

im still considering what appear to be "clearcut" passages of the bible. lets just say i cant ignore them. i may never decide this side of heaven.

but i do have to consider the possibility that not only that God never breaks His own law but that He exemplifies the behavior He demands of us.

so if were you i would take my time.... :)

[Guest]

>>>Just curious. Where does it say that the whole solar system is fried? Also we can burn up the whole earth right now.<<<

The elements. That means the sun, the moon, etc. Sinful man has walked on the moon, and even planted a flag there. It has to go.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

[Lutz13]

Here is another example:

"Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sigh of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'"(2 Samuel 12:11-12) So did God tell Absalom to go into Davids concubines in front of Israel? Of course not!

"With hellish cunning this wily and unprincipled statesman urged Absalom to add the crime of incest to that of rebellion. In the sight of all Israel he was to take to himself his father's concubines, according to the custom of oriental nations, thus declaring that he succeeded to his father's throne. And Absalom carried out the vile suggestion. Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, "Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor. . . . For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." [Patriarchs and Prophets p.739]

[Lutz13]

The elements. That means the sun, the moon, etc. Sinful man has walked on the moon, and even planted a flag there. It has to go.

A staged video isn't valid proof that we have landed on the moon.

[Guest]

Ok staged video.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

[Guest]

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, {EW 54}

[Lutz13]

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, {EW 54}

That may very well be the case. It is one of those things that I try and understand with a finite mind. "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' Says the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:8-9) God will deal with things in such a way that everyone is happy. Even the wicked who bow down to Him.

[Guest]

Yep

[Gail]

That may very well be the case. It is one of those things that I try and understand with a finite mind. "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' Says the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:8-9) God will deal with things in such a way that everyone is happy. Even the wicked who bow down to Him.

Well said!

[Guest]

Do not wait to see if others can see this before you believe. If you do, you will go on in darkness!

I disagree.

I don't believe my salvation, or yours, depends upon wheather we understand the destruction of the wicked.

[teresaq]

Here is another example:

"Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sigh of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'"(2 Samuel 12:11-12) So did God tell Absalom to go into Davids concubines in front of Israel? Of course not!

"With hellish cunning this wily and unprincipled statesman urged Absalom to add the crime of incest to that of rebellion. In the sight of all Israel he was to take to himself his father's concubines, according to the custom of oriental nations, thus declaring that he succeeded to his father's throne. And Absalom carried out the vile suggestion. Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, "Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor. . . . For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." [Patriarchs and Prophets p.739]

as you so clearly point out in this statement our pioneers understood very clearly that there was a permissive and causative sense used in the bible. just because God said i, such and such does not mean He literally did it. it could very well mean He would allow, or not work to prevent the inevitable. i remember discovering that some decades ago, which i had understood to be the position of the seventh day adventist church. i mean that was how i explained difficult texts to non-sdas

imagine my surprise to find that adventists in general do not know that.

james white had a very good article on the permissive sense used in "the hardening of pharoahs heart".

[Guest]

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained....

....Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294}

[teresaq]

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained....

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

There are a couple verses in the Bible that say that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." God did not directly harden his heart. It is just a language that we need to understand. It simply means that when God sends light to soften our hearts and we resist that light, there is a hardening that takes place which makes it more difficult to accept that same light when He sends it the second time. It is only in that sense that the Bible says that God hardens a man's heart.

...

This statement says that it is not God that hardens a man's heart and yet the language of the Bible says that He hardened Pharaoh's heart!

sky

Oh Well . No prophet is perfect. We need to give her some slack.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Here is another example:

"Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sigh of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'"(2 Samuel 12:11-12) So did God tell Absalom to go into Davids concubines in front of Israel? Of course not!

"With hellish cunning this wily and unprincipled statesman urged Absalom to add the crime of incest to that of rebellion. In the sight of all Israel he was to take to himself his father's concubines, according to the custom of oriental nations, thus declaring that he succeeded to his father's throne. And Absalom carried out the vile suggestion. Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, "Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor. . . . For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." [Patriarchs and Prophets p.739]

as you so clearly point out in this statement our pioneers understood very clearly that there was a permissive and causative sense used in the bible. just because God said i, such and such does not mean He literally did it. it could very well mean He would allow, or not work to prevent the inevitable. i remember discovering that some decades ago, which i had understood to be the position of the seventh day adventist church. i mean that was how i explained difficult texts to non-sdas

imagine my surprise to find that adventists in general do not know that.

james white had a very good article on the permissive sense used in "the hardening of pharoahs heart".

None of that is talking about the destruction of the the wicked, and does not pertain to God's strange act which he will perform at the end. God has to do it there is no way around it.

[Guest]

To believe that it comes from anywhere else is to make both the Bible and Ellen white to be a lie.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Here is another example:

"Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sigh of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'"(2 Samuel 12:11-12) So did God tell Absalom to go into Davids concubines in front of Israel? Of course not!

"With hellish cunning this wily and unprincipled statesman urged Absalom to add the crime of incest to that of rebellion. In the sight of all Israel he was to take to himself his father's concubines, according to the custom of oriental nations, thus declaring that he succeeded to his father's throne. And Absalom carried out the vile suggestion. Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, "Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor. . . . For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun." 2 Samuel 12:11, 12. Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." [Patriarchs and Prophets p.739]

as you so clearly point out in this statement our pioneers understood very clearly that there was a permissive and causative sense used in the bible. just because God said i, such and such does not mean He literally did it. it could very well mean He would allow, or not work to prevent the inevitable. i remember discovering that some decades ago, which i had understood to be the position of the seventh day adventist church. i mean that was how i explained difficult texts to non-sdas

imagine my surprise to find that adventists in general do not know that.

james white had a very good article on the permissive sense used in "the hardening of pharoahs heart".

Thanks Lutz. I am glad you brought it up. I have used this example many times in the past on forums whenever we have this discussion but with little effect. It would seem that adventists are the hardest to teach these things now. But you explained it even better than I have ever did in your own words after quoting the passage from P.P.

Why is it that most adventists are so quick to explain non-adventists that the language of the Bible means about eternal fire. They are quick to tell the whole world that it is a language that needs to be explained, that the wicked will not burn eternally but that they will be as though they had never been. That the wages of sin is eternal death not eternal lifle in the fires of hell! But try as you may to tell adventists that God's ways of destroying are not as man's ways!

Thank you again for your last post.

God bless,

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

so if there is just a finger left it is suffering pain?

how about part of a leg?

Well ... it's best not to question our prophet.