Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

I believe that.

[teresaq]

besides the fact that the resurrection gives life to all..."for by one man sin..."

we tend to be somewhat matter of fact, even cavalier, about the whole thing, but i remember this one woman, may God bless her, who put it into perspective for me.

during an ss class where we were studying this particular event she exclaimed, "all those people lost". the tone of her voice changed it forever for me, and i hope it did for the other 20 or so people in that class.

it has made me very conscious of how little i have worked for those God loves so much and will suffer the loss throughout eternity!!

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

The wicked are dead during the 1000 years! They are dead!!! DEAD!!! Why in the heck would you raise them back up, just to destroy them all over again?

There are at least three reasons:

1) When the wicked are raised, they prove by their behavior that they aren't any different than when they went into the grave. They are still opposed to God and to righteousness. They prove that if given another chance, they wouldn't change. They aren't safe to save. They would continue their rebellion against God.

2) It's only just that the wicked understand the reason they are rejected and must die eternally.

3) The entire universe watches as the wicked--including Satan-- admit that God is just and right and that they deserve to die. It helps bring a just and satisfactory closure to the sin problem.

I answered myself above. This was an old topic and God has since then revealed a lot more truth to me.

I do not agree with everything you have just said. I do not think that God rejects them, but they reject God. So God has no choice but to let them go. This is a personal belief, and I could very well be wrong. So I do not wish to argue. I respect your thoughts, you have posted much wisdom in the past.

[LifeHiscost]

So why does He? Or does He? Is God dependent upon violence in order to accomplish His purposes?

I just finished watching part of a documentary about a prison somewhere around Chicago, which revealed the reality of the horror and bloodshed brought to pass by those who see no reason good enough to refrain from killing others, despite the fact that they're already spending a vast portion of their lives in prison as a direct result of their sinfulness.

I sympathized with them, knowing that 90% came from fatherless homes and many probably had parental abuse that was influential in eliciting their choices , eventually leading to where they are now.

A few moments later I watched the story of a father, whose beautiful little girl ran directly in front of the car her daddy was moving to another spot. Her screams stopped the car but not before the 2,000 pound weight of the front wheel was on top her little body. She was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.

This was a father who suffered deeply, especially as the accusations kept flooding his thinking, first about his own guilt about why he hadn't done better in making sure she was nowhere in proximity to the moving auto, then shifting his attention to why God hadn't acted to prevent it from happening.

One set of circumstances seems easy to answer when searching for the why. The other not so easy, especially when we apply the "I've been so good" rule to the scenario. Both possible answers to each set of circumstances is based upon our works as a reason for our conclusions.

What we often forget is that we are all born under penalty of death. We are born and many of us die without a shred of faith in the only God who has right and power to give life. The only reason we have any right to claim mercy from the pain and suffering of this world is through the wisdom and mercy of the One capable of giving deliverance from the archenemy. We're living in satan's domain, subject to his control until and unless by the mercy of God it is seen no trials are needed to facilitate our pathway to the kingdom. How we respond to His decisions determines to a large extent just how much the circumstances of our life hinder or help us along the way.

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them." Deut 4:29-31 KJV

Parenthesis theirs LHC

"Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. "

Jeremiah 18:3-6 KJV

Blessing!

[LifeHiscost]

So why does He? Or does He? Is God dependent upon violence in order to accomplish His purposes?

Since God is the giver of life and He knows the end from the beginning, maybe we could just ask the question, why doesn't He just allow the embryos that He knows are going to be faithful servants to Him, mature and develop into what, automatons?

Are those programmed to do good without options to decide against God, able to reflect love, without choices to exercise free will?

God uses violence when necessary and to the extent where it will give the best results. Picture Jesus turning over the money changer's tables in the temple.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

so are you saying God is just like us?

No!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

... and God the Father took the breath of His only begotten Son and He died. ...

wow!! ive never heard of that one before.

well, if thats what you have decided...

While it is not specifically written in the Bible, I find this statement to be consistent with Jesus' character.

"Jesus died of a broken heart." DA

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I think that you are confusing God's Mercy without taking into account His Justice.

My reading of the scriptures tell me that God "does" bring down "Final Justice" on sinners" in spite of his inclination toward Mercy. In the final analysis when Mercy cannot be extended any longer then Justice must finally bring the end to the whole controversy.

Satan commits suicide by bringing down fire and brimstone on himself and his followers????? I don't think so........... Satan is like the last rattlesnake I killed... Even after I chopped his head off the nerves would still allow the head to bite until all brain activity would cease. Satan is already dead. He just doesn't realize it as yet... Don't get near him...He still bites.

Good show, old boy.

[pnattmbtc]

I'm curious as to if people here think God uses violence to achieve His goals or not. I appreciate the thoughts that have been shared, but I'm interested in exploring this issue, as I think it's fundamental to understanding the subject matter of this thread.

Also, I mentioned in my original post on this thread that in reading through the posts, it seems there are a number of people who equate justice with violence, and I'm interested in the rationale behind that.

[BobRyan]

The flood. (read 2Peter 3)

Soddom and Gomorrah.

Annanias and Saphirah

The hailstone he sent to help Israel in battle.

The walls of Jericho.

The lake of Fire that is coming.

------------

Everyone on the planet associates the death penalty with executing justice.

In Genesis 9 God commands that "by man his blood must be shed" when it comes to the case of someone who commits the sin of murder.

This concept goes back to the beginning "for in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die".

So -- Not something that just popped up yesterday.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mrs, White, in vision, describes how Satan and his angels will be brought down to the pit and then quotes Ezekiel 28:7,8.

This takes place after the 1,000 years at the time of the executive judgment of the unsaved.

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. The Great Controversy, p.670.

So here she makes it very clear that the language used by the Bible in regard to the destruction of the wicked simply means that the Lord will not intervene when the unsaved, among them the terrible of the nations, shall turn against Satan and his angels and they will tear them down to pieces and then turn upon each other just as it will take place before the second coming of Christ during the sixth plague.

Satan and his evil angels will have been stripped of much of their power and they will have to fight with the strength equal to that of men.

sky

we are in general agreement here.

We are? wow!! how refreshing!

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Mrs, White, in vision, describes how Satan and his angels will be brought down to the pit and then quotes Ezekiel 28:7,8.

This takes place after the 1,000 years at the time of the executive judgment of the unsaved.

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. The Great Controversy, p.670.

So here she makes it very clear that the language used by the Bible in regard to the destruction of the wicked simply means that the Lord will not intervene when the unsaved, among them the terrible of the nations, shall turn against Satan and his angels and they will tear them down to pieces and then turn upon each other just as it will take place before the second coming of Christ during the sixth plague.

Satan and his evil angels will have been stripped of much of their power and they will have to fight with the strength equal to that of men.

sky

Very well said Sky. I also think that is how they go as well. But it is something I truly won't know until it happens. It is all speculation at this point.

Thanks Lutz, but there is no speculation on my part here. I can prove everything I said in this post if you want more evidence from the Scriptures and the SOP.

sky

[skyblue888]

Of Lucifer at the time of his destruction at the hand of the unsaved, it is written: "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord God.' Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, behold therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor; they shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the misdt of the seas." Ezekiel 28:9,10,6-8.

Satan and his angels will die in the misdt of the "seas" meaning in the midst of the unsaved of all ages for the seas represent mutlitudes, peoples, nations. See Rev.17:15. He and all the angels who followed him will die at their hand just as the false shepherds will die at the hand of the wicked after the close of probation at the time of the sixth plague. See G.C.635,636,655,656.

And yet in both cases the language of the Bible is that God will destroy them. It is true that God will do that but only in the sense that He will not intervene but simply allow the wicked to reap that which they have sown. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. For "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

sky

[Twilight]

Of Lucifer at the time of his destruction at the hand of the unsaved, it is written: "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord God.' Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, behold therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor; they shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the misdt of the seas." Ezekiel 28:9,10,6-8.

Satan and his angels will die in the misdt of the "seas" meaning in the midst of the all the unsaved of all ages for the seas represent mutlitudes, peoples, nations. See Rev.17:15. He and all the angels who followed him will die at their hand just as the false shepherds will die at the hand of the wicked after the close of probation at the time of the sixth plague. See G.C.635,636,655,656.

And yet in both cases the language of the Bible is that God will destroy them. It is true that God will do that but only in the sense that He will not intervene but simply allow the wicked to reap that which they have sown. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. For "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

sky

My question would now be Sky, how then does each person suffer for their sins?

How does satan suffer for His sins?

Dying at the hands of an angry mob is not the same as him burning for a length of time.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Of Lucifer at the time of his destruction at the hand of the unsaved, it is written: "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord God.' Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, behold therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor; they shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the misdt of the seas." Ezekiel 28:9,10,6-8.

Satan and his angels will die in the misdt of the "seas" meaning in the midst of the all the unsaved of all ages for the seas represent mutlitudes, peoples, nations. See Rev.17:15. He and all the angels who followed him will die at their hand just as the false shepherds will die at the hand of the wicked after the close of probation at the time of the sixth plague. See G.C.635,636,655,656.

And yet in both cases the language of the Bible is that God will destroy them. It is true that God will do that but only in the sense that He will not intervene but simply allow the wicked to reap that which they have sown. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. For "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

sky

My question would now be Sky, how then does each person suffer for their sins?

How does satan suffer for His sins?

Dying at the hands of an angry mob is not the same as him burning for a length of time.

Mark :-)

The Bible does say that he and his angels will die at the hand of aliens, meaning, at the hand of the terrible of the nations. This is the truth. I believe we can agree on that, right? Even Mrs. White in The Great Controversy, p.670 confirms this. First he and his angels will have to suffer a 1,000 years of mental agony and anguish while they await their fate at the hand of all whom they have tempted and deceived. It is during that time that Satan and his angels will be stripped of much of their power which will be reduced to that of man's; this also will cause them much suffering. If that is not suffering for their sins I don't know what it is. At least it will be part of it. We know also that in the last great battle Satan will suffer the longest. The more wicked a person is the more you can expect that person to fight to stay alive as opposed to the Lamb of God who surrendered His life to be crucified. He offered no resistance. That fiesty resistance on the part of Satan and his angels against those who would slay them will prove to be their worse nightmare and this is how they will suffer until they have received full retribution for all the suffering and sin they will have been responsible for.

*In the midst of this great battle we can expect there will be fire raging for they will be using powerful weapons of mass destruction. From the SOP we are told that Satan will have time to prepare for the onslaught (in his last attempt to take over the New Jerusalem) but in the end, these very weapons will be turned upon him and his angels just as the weapons that the wicked will be about to use to slay the saints at the time of fifth plague will finally turn against them. "The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed." G.C.656, first parg.

sky

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." (Ezekiel 28:6-10 quoted) Great Controversy, p.670.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

My question would now be Sky, how then does each person suffer for their sins?

How does satan suffer for His sins?

Dying at the hands of an angry mob is not the same as him burning for a length of time.

Mark :-) [/quote']

The Bible does say that he and his angels will die at the hand of aliens, meaning, at the hand of the terrible of the nations. This is the truth. I believe we can agree on that, right? Even Mrs. White in The Great Controversy, p.670 confirms this. First he and his angels will have to suffer a 1,000 years of mental agony and anguish while they await their fate at the hand of all whom they have tempted and deceived. If that is not suffering for their sins I don't know what it is. We know also that Satan will suffer the longest. The more wicked a person is the more you can expect that person to fight to stay alive as opposed to the Lamb of God who surrendered His life to be crucified. He offered no resistance. That fiesty resistance on the part of Satan and his angels against those who would slay them will prove to be their worse nightmare and this is how they will suffer until they have received full retribution for all the suffering and sin they will have been responsible for.

*In the midst of this great battle we can expect there will be fire raging for they will be using powerful weapons of destruction. From the SOP we are told that Satan will have time to prepare for the onslaught but these weapons will, in the end, turn upon him and his angels just as the weapons that the wicked will be about to use to slay the saints at the time of fifth plague will finally be turned upon them. "The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed." G.C.656, first parg.

sky

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." (Ezekiel 28:6-10 quoted) Great Controversy, p.670.

But the bible states they are going to burn for their sins.

The fallen angels and humanity, in hellfire.

I do not see how this fits in with that scenario?

Mark

[skyblue888]

Why not? The fire will not come directly out from the Lord but from their own weapons. Don't worry they will burn but not at the hand of the Lord. "Evil shall slay the wicked" in that day. This is always true. And you can be sure that they will suffer for all the sins that they have caused God's people to commit. The rest of the wicked will have to suffer for their own sins.

sky

Even if Satan is the last to fall it will still be true that he will have fallen at the hand of aliens.

[Twilight]

Why not? The fire will not come directly out from the Lord but from their own weapons. Don't worry they will burn but not at the hand of the Lord. "Evil shall slay the wicked" in that day. This is always true. And you can be sure that they will suffer for all the sins that they have caused God's people to commit. The rest of the wicked will have to suffer for their own sins.

sky

Even if Satan is the last to fall it will still be true that he will have fallen at the hand of aliens.

Please be assured I am open on this, but I do not think it is as clear cut as that.

My own view is that God does finally destroy and it is called His "strange act".

There is soddom and gommorha to deal with, the flood, fire from God on Elijah's altar.

All these things need dealing with, as this thread has tried to in the past.

But I welcome any further thoughts and would like to explore this openly.

Maybe a fresh thread, as this one became quite tainted?

Mark :-)

[Guest]

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:9

[skyblue888]

Mark, when inspiration tells us that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," that must always be true no matter how the language of the Bible may seem to contradict that.

There are two statements that I know of from the pen of inspiration dealing with God's strange act. Do you know them? After reading these two statements it becomes very clear that God's strange act is not exactly what it is commonly understood to be.

sky

*btw Mark I edited my last posts that you have quoted for clearer understanding. :)

[skyblue888]

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:9

Yes Richard, this is the strong language of the Bible which is also used in the book of Job. The fire that destroyed Job's possessions and even his children's houses did not come out directly from the Lord and yet it is the same language. We know that it was Satan who caused that fire to burn Job's possessions. But in the case of Satan and his evil angels and all the unsaved at the time of the executive judgment, fire will finally have the best of them all but that fire will not come out directly from the Lord. Fire will break out from the midst of them as the Bible explains in Ezekiel and yet the Bible's language is that it will come from God but only in the sense that the Lord will not intervene. There are numerous cases in point where the language of the Bible is explained by the pen of inspiration but before we go there, how do you feel about what I have just said?

sky

[skyblue888]

Should we deal with what is called "God's strange act" first?

Speaking of the destruction of Lucifer, we read, "Therefore I brought fire from your misdt; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth, in the sight of all who saw you." Ezekiel 28:18.

A little while ago we saw how Mrs. White explained the language of Ezekiel 28:7 when God is speaking to Satan saying to him, "I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations." Mrs. White explained that the wicked will simply turn against him at the time of the executive judgment. God will not interfere with them and it is im this way that Satan and his angels will finally reap that which they have sown. There are other examples of how the pen of inspiration explains the language of the Bible as far as describing God's actions are concerned. We will look at a few more soon.

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

So why does He? Or does He? Is God dependent upon violence in order to accomplish His purposes?

Since God is the giver of life and He knows the end from the beginning, maybe we could just ask the question, why doesn't He just allow the embryos that He knows are going to be faithful servants to Him, mature and develop into what, automatons?

Are those programmed to do good without options to decide against God, able to reflect love, without choices to exercise free will?

amd that relates to the question how?

or are you saying you cant see any other possiblity than that God is violent?

you cant see how He could possibly attain results without being violent?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Gladussee

I think that you are confusing God's Mercy without taking into account His Justice.

Good show, old boy.

no there is no confusion, except on the parts of those who dont understand the point.

Gods justice was revealed when He removed His protection and allowed the fiery serpents to overtake the israelites camp. the mercy part was not allowing everyone to be bitten.

Gods justice was revealed when He no longer went to war with the israelites allowing them to be conquered by their former lovers over and over in the book of judges. His mercy was shown in not allowing them to be exterminated, and in raising "saviors" for them to overthrow their enemies when they came to Him in true repentance.

it doesnt take much searching to find these instances over and over in the bible.

[skyblue888]

God has never used force or any type of violence in His dealings with men and never will. It is contrary to the principles of His government.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34;21.

We need to examine two statements.

There are two statements that I am aware of from the pen of inspiration that deal with God's strange act. First there is the one with which most of us are familiar with:

"The work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love." Partriarchs and prophets, p.139.

Usually this is taken to mean that God is the One doing the work of destruction. According to this interpretation, it does not matter that it is "strange" to Him, it is still Him who is directly doing it. This is the first view.

The second view is that "God destroys no man." C.O.L.84. "Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388.

Therefore when the pen of inspiration declares that to God the work of destruction is a strange work, she is not attributing that work to Him. She is just simply stating that to God the work of destruction is a strange work. It is the work of Satan.

However, there is a work which He Himself does and which is truly His strange act:

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." Review and Herald, Vol.3, p.583.

God's strange work then is that He is constantly occupied to redeem, to save, to repair the ruin that sin and Satan have made.

sky