Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Lutz13]

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So what you are saying is that all punishment is evil so God uses Satan to carry out God's punishments on the wicked because God can't do it Himself?

Satan is the god that uses force. Jesus the Creator never forces Himself onto others. We often tell Him to go away through our actions and I believe He respects that. When He goes, so does His protection and Spirit.

Quote:

I suppose Satan will cast himself in the Lake of Fire to save God the trouble.

People commit suicide all the time. What would stop Satan from doing the same thing? Or perhaps killing those that try to kill him, and in the process accidentally kills himself.

These verses go together very well.

They are referring to Satan.

"Those who see you will gaze at you and consider you saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did no open the house of his prisoners?'"(Isaiah 14:16-17)

"Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god?' but you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you."(Ezekiel 28:9)

That is right, when the wicked are raised up who is right there looking like an angel of light? Satan! What do you think he will say? 'I am a god! I raised you from the dead.' Truth will be revealed and what happens? "you shall be a man, and not a god in the hand of him who slays you." That is right. They will pull him down and kill him. He obviously doesn't just stand there. So what do you think happens? A lot of self destruction and fire from heaven. This fire comes from Satan and not God though. If you think it comes from God, then you will be deceived when Satan walks the earth claiming to be Jesus. Cause he will bring fire down from heaven and do all sorts of signs and wonders.

What most do not realize is that Satan is the god of this world, and we are his prisoners.

[Musicman1228]

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished. Rev.15:1.

The sign is in Heaven from which the plagues come. These 7 bowls are the end point of the wrath of God. This is not the wrath of Satan.

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple (in Heaven) telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” Rev. 16:1.

The seven bowls are the wrath of God on the still living wicked, those that persecuted the righteous during the Great Tribulation.

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. Rev.19:20.

This beast and false prophet that are captured at the direction of Jesus Christ are thrown at His direction into the second death, from which they will never return.

And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. Rev.19:21.

Jesus speaks and those that are left are killed by his words. They are not killed by the words of Satan.

Why are you so surprised that the God of heaven would do something that is outside of His character in order to rid the universe of sin. When sin is eliminated anyone with sin still in them is destroyed at the same instant. God doesn't like it but He will do it because He cannot live forever in a universe where there is sin.

[Robert]

So what you are saying is that all punishment is evil so God uses Satan to carry out God's punishments on the wicked because God can't do it Himself?

Here's the thing....If a man commits premeditated murder the judge will most likely condemn this man by lethal injection. The punishment is death...he is deprived of life.

Now let's compare this to the typical SDA's view of God: According to EGW some will be many days consuming in the fire and as long as a portion of them (a finger, a leg, a head, a torso, etc) remains unconsumed that person will feel all the agony of being slowly, burnt to death.

So instead of "the wages of sin is death" you have "the wages of sin is torture then death." Why would your god torture? What's the point? Why the pain...the agony? What valve does it have?

[Robert]

Why are you so surprised that the God of heaven would do something that is outside of His character in order to rid the universe of sin.

Then He could simply blink sin and sinners out of existence, but instead you believe in a god who would literally slowly cook sinners to their death. Again, what's the point? Again, "the wages of sin is death"...not torture. What does torture have to do with a loving God?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

What does torture have to do with a loving God?

Absolutely nothing.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."(1 John 4:18)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

The sign is in Heaven from which the plagues come. These 7 bowls are the end point of the wrath of God. This is not the wrath of Satan.

You're not understanding what the Wrath of God is. Paul says Gods wrath is God giving people over to themselves. King Saul is a perfect example of Gods wrath.

We know Saul fell on his own sword.

"I gave you a king[saul] in My anger, and took him away in My wrath."(Hosea 13:11) Saul suffered the wrath of God, and killed himself.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Why are you so surprised that the God of heaven would do something that is outside of His character in order to rid the universe of sin. When sin is eliminated anyone with sin still in them is destroyed at the same instant. God doesn't like it but He will do it because He cannot live forever in a universe where there is sin.

You limit God to the ways of this world.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:9)

[Musicman1228]

Does God deal with and put an end to sin, or does Satan do it for Him?

[Robert]

Does God deal with and put an end to sin, or does Satan do it for Him?

Does not sin create all sorts of problems? Did God create AIDS or is it the unintentional result of sin (sexual immortality)? Does AIDS kill or is it God creating AIDS?

So sin kills....We are dying because we are sinners. Is God killing us or is the byproduct of sin taking us under? Could it be God is holding back the results of sin and when humans persistently and ultimately reject Him He retreats and things come undone? Yes....I think so...

[Robert]

Did God create AIDS or is it the unintentional result of sin (sexual immortality)? Does AIDS kill or is it God creating AIDS?

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [how?] .... 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over [God gave them up - He abandoned them to] the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.... 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over [gave them up] to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death [God abandonment], they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[Robert]

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

You see, according to Romans chapter 1, those before the flood turned their backs on God. They forsook God and since God's agape love cannot force itself on those who reject Him, He abandons them to their choice.

In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah they rejected God and the fruit of ungodliness brought down disaster on themselves.

[Lutz13]

Does God deal with and put an end to sin, or does Satan do it for Him?

So a guy leaps out the window of a 100 story building. Does God need to kill him halfway down when the fall will do it for him?

There is no free will if God has to all of a sudden blow people up for not following Him.

"Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own ways, and be filled to the full with their own fancies."(Proverbs 1:31)

We all reap what we sow.

[Guest WilloMar]

Musicman asked, "Does God deal with and put an end to sin, or does Satan do it for Him?"

Dear Musicman, you’re singing the wrong tune. God doesn’t “deal” or “put an end to sin,” He just allows the natural results of sin to come to pass. The only thing He does is “give them up (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26 and 28)” to the life they really crave. What destroys them is their life of sin and the concequences their sins bring. Sin actually destroys sinners, and that includes Satan.

Let’s become like Jesus to welcome His coming!

[Dr. Rich]

Llutz--did you actualy say that "Satan is the god that uses force. Jesus the Creator never forces Himself onto others."? Wow! You just made my case for Saul/Paul. So, changing someone by forcing an evil man possessed by demons to be thrown off his ass (donkey) or horse and causing him to go blind which in turn forced him to go listen to someone so that the scales will fall off of his eyes, had to be the work of Satan--by your own words. Thanks for getting it.

[Musicman1228]

"There is only one thing stronger than the power of God’s love and that is self-delusion".

We are talking about two different issues.

Issue #1: Of course God does not force anyone to do anything against their will, that is called 'Free Will', and is the crowning achievement of Creation. That is why anyone can believe anything about God for good or ill and God won't bat an eye. We must make up our own minds about everything that involves salvation. God gives us evidence for truth, but it is up to us to use it. That is why I put in the initial quote. Just believing in Jesus Christ is not enough, even Satan and his demons do that. What you believe about Jesus Christ is the difference between knowing the truth or believing and practicing a lie as if it is the truth. In other words it is the difference between self-honesty and self-delusion.

Many good-hearted Christians believe as some of you do that since God is Love (which is true) He loves us so much that He won't hold us accountable for our actions with respect to salvation.

Which brings me to the issue #2.

As Dr. Rich pointed out God does not and has not ever used force to coerce someone to serve Him against their will. This is why I too believe that the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus is suspicious. But you then may ask, "What about Jonah. Didn't God force him to go to Ninevah against his will?" The difference is that Jonah had made his decision to serve God BEFORE God had him thrown into the sea and swallowed by the fish. And in the end Jonah voluntarily told the sailors to thrown him overboard. In doing that God was merely holding Jonah to a commitment that he had already made. In the case of Paul God would have had to go completely outside of His character and Law (Love and free will) to "convince" (force, coerce, torture) Paul to change sides. (As the Godfather would say, "I have a deal you simply can't refuse.) There is not one example of God doing this with anyone else who He wanted to act on His behalf, either as a prophet or apostle. God would know their answer before He asked them the question. This is because God knows the end from the beginning (Satan does not) and He would know ahead of time whether the person He is calling to service will say yes or no. (If you can find one I would love to hear about it.) Thus, the God of Heaven would not need to coerce anyone, therefore the 'god' that confronted Saul on the road to Damascus could not possibly have been the omniscient God of Heaven.

So the second issue with respect to judgment is this; just as God will not force His will on anyone even at the expense of their lives, so to must God hold each person accountable for how he uses that free will and whether he/she accepts of rejects the Love which God offers. ("If you love Me keep My Commandments.") God offers eternal life for those who obey Him, and God offers eternal death for those who don't (Deut.30:15-20). God cannot leave this up to Satan because if it were up to Satan he would see to it that everyone would be disobedient toward God and completely take the world hostage in hopes that God would be forced to continue to let Satan live because He could not bear to destroy those whom He loves. This is Satan's great hope and plan, and the foundation of this great deception.

The idea that God will not punish sinners who have rejected Him is just what Satan wants loving and sincere Christians to believe, thereby affording him a lever with which to pry his own miserable life out of God's hands. This is the same lie that Satan told to Adam and Eve in the Garden just before they gave over the Kingdom of Heaven to Satan (Satan already had the world); the lie is that God won't punish you if you disobey Him. Please don't fall into this insidious trap.

Jesus did not die FOR our sins in order to eliminate our accountability for our sins (salvation by grace through faith). Jesus Christ went to the cross to accept and pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven; accountability for these sins must be met by Law. I praise God everyday for taking on the accountability for my sins, which is why I have placed myself into bondservice to Jesus Christ, because He paid the penalty that I could only pay by my own eternal death.

[Robert]

Jesus the Creator never forces Himself onto others."? Wow! You just made my case for Saul/Paul.

Acts 9:3 As he [saul] neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

[Musicman1228]

Robert,

As you know Acts was written by Luke using information primarily that Paul gave him. Since NO ONE saw who it was that spoke to Saul (Saul was blinded and the others only saw a light) we only have his word as to who it was and what was said. In fact, no one who was with him heard the voice, only Saul. In a court of law can someone act as an expert witness on their own behalf without corroborating testimony? And Jesus did not appear to either James, John, Peter or any of the other apostles and confirm it separately. Also Jesus said the He was not coming back to earth until His appearing at the end so if He showed up to confront Paul on the Damascus road then He must have lied about that. Jesus Christ does not lie. I know it goes against conventional theology and is very difficult to deal with but given that there were not two impartial witnesses present that testified about the events happened the way Saul said they did, does that not cast even a small doubt as to whether something else could have been going on?

‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. Rev.2:2.

Believe what you will.

[Dr. Rich]

Robert, Paul gives us two different accounts of what happened in Acts. Can you tell me which one of them is the truth? (as if any are)

[Ted Oplinger]

Robert, Paul gives us two different accounts of what happened in Acts. Can you tell me which one of them is the truth? (as if any are)

Two DIFFERENT accounts..or the same account from different perspectives and for two different audiences?

[LifeHiscost]

And the traditional view presents a God who threatens sinners with death: "I'm God...I love you, now love me back or I'll drown you!"

That's why I oppose the typical view of God.

If you would read the Bible, Robert, you would know that isn't what God said. For your information, this is what God said and this is what was believed, and who was believed.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17 KJV

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."Gen 3:4 NKJV

Look for the principle and you will see the same principle through the Word, down to the time we are living in today, including the time of the flood.

Regards!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And the traditional view presents a God who threatens sinners with death: "I'm God...I love you, now love me back or I'll drown you!"

That's why I oppose the typical view of God.

If you would read the Bible, Robert, you would know that isn't what God said.

Deut. 28:15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. 17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. 18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. 20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. 30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the Lord will drive you. 38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land. 43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

[Lutz13]

Deut. 28:15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. 17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. 18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out. 20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. 30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and ravish her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the Lord will drive you. 38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land. 43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

C'mon Robert. How can you not see the love in those text? What is wrong with you?!

[Guest WilloMar]

Robert, I’ve been reading the book of Joshua, because my grandson suggested it, and came to a startling eye-opener. Throughout the book god tells Israel that if they worshiped him, he would give them the land. Isn’t that what Satan said to Jesus, after he presented “the kingdoms of the world,” “All these things will I give Thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me (Matt. 4:8, 9).” That sure sounds like the enemy to me. The god of this world must be the god in most of the OT.

Let’s prepare for Jesus’ arrival!

[Stewart (SDA)]

Amos 3:7 is speaking of "His Servants the prophets", not everyone in the entire world, because if the world at that time was wholly evil then they are obviously NOT God's servants.

I refered to this thought in Amos only to stress the point that God would show somebody (at least one person) that the flood was coming. Of course Noah knew it.

In Ezekiel, God gave a principle which is applicable to the flood scenario.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

If Noah had not warned the people the blood of all the antedeluvians would be upon Noah.

Stewart

[Dr. Rich]

Stewart, Again, God was not talking to the whole world here. He was tallking to Israel/Jews at the time. And no, there is NO evidence that Noah ever preached to anyone. You can assume anything you want, but let it be just that. After all, one of the ten commendments is not to bear false witness. If Jesus said NO ONE KNEW what was going to happen, then I believe it.

Dr. Rich, SDA