Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Robert]

So according to EGW, the only way we could be sharing the guilt of someone is to sympathize with them....

I like how you just totally ignore the quote and drift off into lala land....Read the quote, Gerry:

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam [the human race] share his guilt and its consequences; ...."

Romans chapter 5 states the same....Now, instead of guilt she should have used condemnation or judgment, but I understand her meaning....

[Robert]

Romans 5:2 Therefore, just as sin entered the world [the human race] through one man [Adam], and death through sin [sin produced death], and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned [past tense - refers to Adam's sin]-- ...18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men , so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

[John317]

Personally, I feel that it would be much better for the SDA church to get back to pre-EGW Bible study methods rather than relying on the point of view of one person to establish truth for an entire belief system. What do you think?

Ellen White said that we should use all the tools at our disposal to study a passage of the Bible, and then once we have finished studying it, we should read her writings on that subject or on that text.

Many people don't realize that when the men at the Sabbath Bible Conferences in 1849 had studied and couldn't go any further, God would give Ellen White visions which would lead them to agree on a particular understanding of a doctrine or text. But God didn't give her visions about a subject until the brethren had studied the Scriptures first.

However, it is true that Ellen White was instrumental in helping our church develop its doctrines. That part of her ministry is sometimes neglected or forgotten and sometimes even denied. The pillars of our faith were verified by the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure if Ellen White were alive, she would say that too many of us are not spending enough time in Bible study. Too many are surface readers and not real students. But the need to study the Bible shouldn't ever mean we're supposed to stop studying Ellen White's writings.

[Dr. Rich]

A big AMEN to that 'shadow'!

[Musicman1228]

Please read Rev. 2:2-5 with respect to the 'apostle' Paul, and Rev. 2:19-28 with respect to the 'prophet' Ellen White. "If the shoe fits . . ."

There is enough here for me to ask question and feel uncomfortable with the answers. I am not sure about them anymore. This is why I will use only the very words of Jesus Christ as given by His own disciple eyewitnesses, the Old Testament, and the prophets Daniel and John in Revelation as the only reliable, provable sources of truth. In these I have absolute, complete confidence. You, of course, may use any source for truth that you choose. (ref. the parable of the wheat and the tares, Matt.13:24-30)

[Dr. Rich]

every read her books? and which ones.. and how long ago

the proof is in the pudding, not what people said she said..

Stan, and just what does that 'pudding' taste like? Didn't she say that Noah preached for 120 years and people made fun of him as found in the P & P? Now why would Noah do something stupid like this when God specifically told him that ONLY Noah and his family would be saved? God did NOT tell Noah to preach--did He? If anyone would have heard him and repented, then God would have to change the size of the ark--right?

Here is evidence that Noah did not preach--Jesus said in Matthew 24:39 that NO ONE knew (understand) what what going to happen! If Noah had preached, then Jesus could NOT have said this for it would have been a lie.

I could show LOTS more, but just how much does one need to 'get the picture' and 'taste the pudding'? Tell me, what was the source for this misinformation given by EGW?

[John317]

Didn't she say that Noah preached for 120 years and people made fun of him as found in the P & P? Now why would Noah do something stupid like this when God specifically told him that ONLY Noah and his family would be saved?

Please quote the verse which says that only Noah & his family would be saved.

Quote:

God did NOT tell Noah to preach--did He? If anyone would have heard him and repented, then God would have to change the size of the ark--right?

Not true. There would have been room for some additional passengers. The ark was not so crowded it could not have accommodated those who would have wanted to be saved. Our God is a loving, merciful God who does not want any to be lost.

Quote:

Here is evidence that Noah did not preach--Jesus said in Matthew 24:39 that NO ONE knew (understand) what what going to happen! If Noah had preached, then Jesus could NOT have said this for it would have been a lie.

The text indicates that the people did not believe Noah and therefore were unaware of the danger, not because they had not been warned but because they rejected the message. Satan and the fallen angels inspired the people to ridicule Noah and reject the message the same way many reject the Three Angels Messages today. So today people are told of what will open some day when Christ returns, but the ones who disbelieve the warning won't "know" of the danger until the day it He comes.

God's prophet wrote,

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7. While Noah was giving his warning message to the world, his works testified of his sincerity. It was thus that his faith was perfected and made evident. He gave the world an example of believing just what God says. All that he possessed, he invested in the ark. As he began to construct that immense boat on dry ground, multitudes came from every direction to see the strange sight and to hear the earnest, fervent words of the singular preacher. Every blow struck upon the ark was a witness to the people.

Many at first appeared to receive the warning; yet they did not turn to God with true repentance. They were unwilling to renounce their sins. During the time that elapsed before the coming of the Flood, their faith was tested, and they failed to endure the trial. Overcome by the prevailing unbelief, they finally joined their former associates in rejecting the solemn message. Some were deeply convicted, and would have heeded the words of warning; but there were so many to jest and ridicule, that they partook of the same spirit, resisted the invitations of mercy, and were soon among the boldest and most defiant scoffers; for none are so reckless and go to such lengths in sin as do those who have once had light, but have resisted the convicting Spirit of God. PP 95

Quote:

I could show LOTS more,

That I'm sure of.

Quote:

but just how much does one need to 'get the picture' and 'taste the pudding'?

Depends on what we're looking for, doesn't it, and how hard we're seeking for it?

Quote:

Tell me, what was the source for this misinformation given by EGW?

What was your source? I'll believe Ellen White any day. After 35 years of studying her, I've learned to trust her. I love her and I feel blessed that God sent her to us.

[nuff sed]

My personal beliefs are that Noah did a lot of preaching during those 120 years of ark-building... When people came up to ask questions and scoff, he , probably, laid down his tools in order to 'preach' to them. And that's , perhaps, why it it took 120 years ????? I do not believe that he knew exactly how many persons would be on the ark.

www.anchorstone.com has many interesting things concerning the modern-day search for Noah's Ark.

[Twilight]

My personal beliefs are that Noah did a lot of preaching during those 120 years of ark-building... When people came up to ask questions and scoff, he , probably, laid down his tools in order to 'preach' to them. And that's , perhaps, why it it took 120 years ????? I do not believe that he knew exactly how many persons would be on the ark.

www.anchorstone.com has many interesting things concerning the modern-day search for Noah's Ark.

The bible tells us that God bore long with those before the flood. 120 years.

It also tells us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

Ellen White joined the dots.

God bless,

Mark

[John317]

Those who destroy the effect of the warning by blinding the eyes of sinners to the real character and results of sin often flatter themselves that they thus give evidence of their charity; but they are working directly to oppose and hinder the work of God’s Holy Spirit; they are lulling the sinner to rest on the brink of destruction; they are making themselves partakers in his guilt and incurring a fearful responsibility for his impenitence. Many, many, have gone down to ruin as the result of this false and deceptive sympathy. "{PP 361.2}

....But their stubborn persistence sealed their doom. The entire congregation were sharers in their guilt, for all had, to a greater or less degree, sympathized with them. Yet God in His great mercy made a distinction between the leaders in rebellion and those whom they had led. The people who had permitted themselves to be deceived were still granted space for repentance. Overwhelming evidence had been given that they were wrong, and that Moses was right. The signal manifestation of God’s power had removed all uncertainty." {PP 401.2}....

..... Those who have too little courage to reprove wrong, or who through indolence or lack of interest make no earnest effort to purify the family or the church of God, are held accountable for the evil that may result from their neglect of duty. We are just as responsible for evils that we might have checked in others by exercise of parental or pastoral authority as if the acts had been our own." {PP 578.2}

.....

Excellent quotes, Gerry. Thanks for posting them.

[Musicman1228]

I have just re-read Gen.6 and 7 and do not see any reference that Noah preached to anyone. The only references to the people that were to go on the ark were to Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives. Nowhere does it say that Noah said anything to anyone outside of his family. I also looked up the verse in which Jesus says that no one knew that the flood was coming. Here it is:

As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt.24:37-39.

Jesus does not lie, so that means that whoever said that Noah preached 120 years making the people of the earth aware of God's impending judgment are either liars or misunderstand what Scripture says, and are supplying their own interpretation. Having a personal belief that is based on faulty information is the same as believing a lie as if it is the truth; in other words your belief is based on your faith that your understanding is true even if that belief is unsubstantiated by the facts.

In this case and by the very testimony of Jesus Christ Himself EGW is proven wrong about Noah preaching 120 years. Noah didn't preach because Jesus said no one knew the flood was coming. Is not God capable of giving EGW the correct information about what Noah did? Since God does not make mistakes in the information he gives to His servants (whether apostles or prophets), and since EGW claimed that God gave her the information about Noah then the god that gave EGW this information could not possibly be the God of the Kingdom of the Heavens. She must have been getting her information from the false god. If she is wrong about this what else is she wrong about? And what other information has this false god given her that is leading the servants of God astray?

If our beliefs are built on faith instead of facts then it is easily possible to be fooled, something that Jesus warned his disciples about in Matt.24:4. The truth Jesus taught is fact, we do not need faith to believe it, we just need to learn the facts. If we can't trust the words of the Son of God then who's words can we trust?

[Gail]

I'm sure that Noah couldn't get away with building such a huge contraption without anyone noticing or asking! Obviously the wicked chose not to believe Noah, and that could very well be why they were not expecting the flood.

Which is the same today. Most people will be able to identify a Bible when they see one, but that is no guarantee that they believe what it has to say. People who reject the information will likely not be expecting Jesus to return, either.

[Dr. Rich]

35 years--is that all? I have had over 50 years myself! (But really, who cares?) I took about a year off to read AND STUDY just about everything EGW wrote. I came to the conclusion that many others have come up with and can be found in sites on the Internet.

John, read Gen. 6:18 and 7:1 and if this is not the 'family' then what is? As for the ark not being crowded, I suppose that you were there-right? And did you actually say that God TOLD Noah to preach? I can't believe you wrote that. It must have been a mistake. I will cut you some slack on this one. Perhaps you would have done better to study the bible for the 35 years. And, as for Matt. 24:39, I will let the words speak for themself. If Jesus said it, then I believe it! This to me would mean that NOT ONE other person ever heard the message that it was going to rain and there was going to be a flood and kill everyone because they were evil. As for the ark being the center piece in the world--hey, the world did not revolve around Noah and the ark! He probably did this in complete isolation--after all, he was righteous and not too many people want to hang out with someone who is without sin--right?

It is my guess that the world was covered by people. That means that they must have had lots of boats. So, what is just another boat to someone?

And Twilite, can you share the verse where God said He bore long with those people before the flood? Thanks. (But then I would have to agree that if God was going to kill everyone because they were all evil, (ceptin' Noah) He would have ha to 'bore' long with them.

[John317]

read Gen. 6:18 and 7:1 and if this is not the 'family' then what is?

But you said, "God specifically told him that ONLY Noah and his family would be saved."

We are still waiting for the quote. Gen. 6: 18- 7: 1 does not show God as having told Noah that "ONLY Noah and his family would be saved." It says God made a covenant or agreement with Noah to save him and his family." It does not indicate that they were the only ones who could be or would be saved.

For instance, God made a covenant with the children of Israel at Sinai. But anyone who reads the Bible knows that anyone else outside of Israel was free also to enter into that covenant. Strangers and foreigners could also be saved through that covenant.

Do you believe the evidence shows that if someone had told Noah that he wanted to come into the ark and be saved along with Noah, Noah would have refused him/her?

If you do, it seems to me that your theology is leading you into some very strange and unfortunate viewpoints.

Therefore, again, please give the quote where the Scriptures tell us that "God specifically told him that ONLY Noah and his family would be saved."

Do you believe the following quote from the Spirit of Prophecy--

Many at first appeared to receive the warning; yet they did not turn to God with true repentance. They were unwilling to renounce their sins. During the time that elapsed before the coming of the Flood, their faith was tested, and they failed to endure the trial. Overcome by the prevailing unbelief, they finally joined their former associates in rejecting the solemn message. Some were deeply convicted, and would have heeded the words of warning; but there were so many to jest and ridicule, that they partook of the same spirit, resisted the invitations of mercy, and were soon among the boldest and most defiant scoffers; for none are so reckless and go to such lengths in sin as do those who have once had light, but have resisted the convicting Spirit of God.

....

It was not multitudes or majorities that were on the side of right. The world was arrayed against God's justice and His laws, and Noah was regarded as a fanatic. .... The world made merry at the folly of the deluded old man. Instead of humbling the heart before God, they continued their disobedience and wickedness, the same as though God had not spoken to them through His servant.

But Noah stood like a rock amid the tempest. Surrounded by popular contempt and ridicule, he distinguished himself by his holy integrity and unwavering faithfulness. A power attended his words, for it was the voice of God to man through His servant. .....They manifested their contempt for the warning of God by doing just as they had done before the warning was given. They continued their festivities and their gluttonous feasts; they ate and drank, planted and builded, laying their plans in reference to advantages they hoped to gain in the future; and they went to greater lengths in wickedness, and in defiant disregard of God's requirements, to testify that they had no fear of the Infinite One. They asserted that if there were any truth in what Noah had said, the men of renown--the wise, the prudent, the great men--would understand the matter.

Had the antediluvians believed the warning, and repented of their evil deeds, the Lord would have turned aside His wrath, as He afterward did from Nineveh. But by their obstinate resistance to the reproofs of conscience and the warnings of God's prophet, that generation filled up the measure of their iniquity, and became ripe for destruction.

The period of their probation was about to expire. Noah had faithfully followed the instructions which he had received from God. The ark was finished in every part as the Lord had directed, and was stored with food for man and beast. And now the servant of God made his last solemn appeal to the people. With an agony of desire that words cannot express, he entreated them to seek a refuge while it might be found. Again they rejected his words, and raised their voices in jest and scoffing. PP 95-97

[Dr. Rich]

Not sure what bible you are using, but all of mine don't agree with yours!

[John317]

Post the Bible verse/s you refer to. Give the quotes, please, that say, "God specifically told him that ONLY Noah and his family would be saved."

[John317]

In this case and by the very testimony of Jesus Christ Himself EGW is proven wrong about Noah preaching 120 years. Noah didn't preach because Jesus said no one knew the flood was coming. Is not God capable of giving EGW the correct information about what Noah did? Since God does not make mistakes in the information he gives to His servants (whether apostles or prophets), and since EGW claimed that God gave her the information about Noah then the god that gave EGW this information could not possibly be the God of the Kingdom of the Heavens. She must have been getting her information from the false god. If she is wrong about this what else is she wrong about? And what other information has this false god given her that is leading the servants of God astray?

There is no contradiction between what Ellen White said and what Jesus said.

The text, Matt. 24: 38, 39 indicates that the people did not believe Noah and therefore were unaware of the danger, not because they had not been warned but because they rejected the message. Satan and the fallen angels inspired the people to ridicule Noah and reject the message the same way many reject the Three Angels Messages today. So today people are told of what will happen some day when Christ returns, but the ones who disbelieve the warning won't "know" of the danger until the day it He comes.

There are certainly people preaching about the return of the Son of Man in judgment, so it won't be a question of people not hearing a warning. Jesus' point is that just as the people of Noah's day did not "know" of or believe in the coming flood, and were therefore taken by surprise-- so the people living at the time of Christ's return will not "know" of it beforehand, because they unwisely chose to disbelieve in the warning. He is clearly NOT saying people won't have heard other people say Jesus is coming. They won't "know" He is coming because they reject this knowledge. This is the same with those living at the time of the flood. They had warnings that it was coming-- but they did not "know" about it because they deliberately refused to believe it.

[John317]

Perhaps you would have done better to study the bible for the 35 years.

I've done that too. :-) I thank God for giving us both.

[Musicman1228]

So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Gen.6:7-8.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God. Gen.6:9.

God singles out Noah as righteous and blameless. This proves that becoming righteous is possible for humans to accomplish. It is the reason why God saved only Noah and his family.

And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Gen.6:13.

For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die. Gen.6:17.

Is the word "All" hard to understand here?

But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. Gen.6:18.

There is no record of God making a covenant with anyone other than Noah, and by extension his immediate family.

Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him. Gen.6:22.

This sentence is repeated at least once more in this history. The reason why Noah was saved is because He did ALL that God commanded of him, and this is righteousness. God saved Noah's wife, his sons and their wives out of respect for the fact that Noah was blameless before the God of Creation.

Nowhere in this passage does the writer of Genesis say that Noah told anyone other than his own family what was about to happen. God did not tell him to warn the world of the impending judgment. This is why Jesus could say what He did in Matt.24:37.

[John317]

So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. Gen.6:7-8.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God. Gen.6:9.

God singles out Noah as righteous and blameless. This proves that becoming righteous is possible for humans to accomplish. It is the reason why God saved only Noah and his family.

And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Gen.6:13.

For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die. Gen.6:17.

Is the word "All" hard to understand here?

No, not at all. It is easy to understand. It means ALL. No exceptions. If you are right, it would also include Noah and his family, right?

But it didn't. It didn't mean Noah and therefore it didn't mean every single person on earth. Your argument is self-defeating.

Gen. 6: 19 and 7: 15 says that God told Noah to bring two of ALL flesh into the ark, yet we know that not all animals were brought onto the ark. Can you think of some that Noah did not take onto the ark?

Gen. 7: 4 says that the flood will destroy from the face of the earth ALL living things that" God made. Is that literally true? Does "ALL" mean all? NO. "All" in the Bible often means "most" or almost all.

That's why 2 Peter 2: 5 refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness, because during the time he was building the ark, he was preaching to the people of the coming judgment. Today God sends a message-- the Three Angels Messages-- through us about coming judgment. Satan and those who serve him hate it because he knows it means his absolute defeat and destruction.

Your interpretation of "ALL" is getting you into trouble.

Just as Satan inspired the people of Noah's day to ridicule him and reject the message, so today Satan and his demons are inspiring people to ridicule the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy in order to keep the message of warning from being accepted and acted upon for salvation.

[Stewart (SDA)]

In response to the thought that Noah did not warn the people of the coming flood, a couple of thoughts spring to mind.

Amos 3:7

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets"

And Noah, who was shown that the flood was coming, was, as the Bible says, a "preacher of righteousness". (2Pet 2:5.)

Sure, if Noah were only "an hireling" and saw the wolf (or in Noah's case, the flood) approaching, he certainly would have left the people to die without warning them.

But as Ezekiel says, if Noah saw that impending doom coming, and did not warn the people, then their blood would be on his hands.

________

Stewart

[John317]

Nowhere in this passage does the writer of Genesis say that Noah told anyone other than his own family what was about to happen. God did not tell him to warn the world of the impending judgment. This is why Jesus could say what He did in Matt.24:37.

As a close student of the Bible, you ought to know that an argument from silence is not valid. There is plenty of evidence the ark was built to save anyone who wanted to get on it. It isn't necessary for the Bible to use the specific language for us to know this is true. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. 2 Peter 2: 5. If God would send Jonah with a message of judgment and God would accept the people's repentance, we can be sure God would have done the same with the people of Noah's day. The word of God says that God wants all to be saved, so it makes sense that He would have appealed to the people to be saved during the time that Noah was building the ark.

In the final analysis, Jesus' words don't conflict with any of the Bible or with Ellen White's words-- that is, unless you want it to conflict. It seems to me you look for contradictions and conflict. When you want to find it, you will find plenty, even when it isn't there. This is a good example. So is Matt. 24: 38, 39.

As stated before, that verse shows that they had warnings that it was coming-- but they did not "know" about it because they deliberately refused to believe it, just like the vast majority of those living today would be caught by surprise and lost if Jesus were to come, not because they were not warned, but because chose to ignore the warning.

[John317]

Excellent points, StewartSDA. Very much appreciated. Thank you.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, if people were all over the world at that time and there was no internet, tv or radio or other media, tell me how did Noah preach to everyone in the world? If he didn't, then it would not have been fair to those in the world--this is why we will now have a time of trouble so that everyone living at that time will have a chance to know the truth.

Is it just me that finds your answer to this important issue frightening? I do NOT see anywhere the God gave a warning to anyone living at the time of the flood-other than Noah. Since Jesus said NO ONE knew about it, then I can take that 'to the bank'! It is His word vs. EGW's word.

[Dr. Rich]

As the majority of scholars have discovered, 1st and 2nd Peter couldn't possible have been written by the disciple Peter because of how it is written and the content found in both books. This is the same conclusion I had to come up with when I did my exhastive research. Many books have been written about this subject so it is not just me saying this.