Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That's Robertian theology for you. You'll never "measure up!"

And even if you did (which goes against texts like Rom 3:23 & 1 John 1:8) you still have a mountain of forgiven sins....Again, the law isn't in the business of forgiveness...no partial credit for good behavior. The law says obey me in every detail, and perfectly at that, then you can have life.

You are correct in saying "the law isn't in the business of forgiveness...no partial credit for good behavior." That's why I need a substitute who fulfills the requirement of the law in every detail.

But will God provide the Substitute without good behavior? The Bible gives a resounding, "NO!!!"

[Robert]

So whose humanity died? HIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine or yours!!!!!!!!!!

[Robert]

So do you think God controlled the Jews and the Roman government to murder His Son?

Absolutely not....The devil controlled them.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So whose humanity died? HIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mine or yours!!!!!!!!!!

I won't even begin to mince words with you on this one. What you are teaching is a pure, unadulterated lie!!!!

Quote:

Ours dies when we are buried with Him in baptism, Rom 6:1-4.

I must denounce this heresy as of the devil and all who adhere to it as presenting "another gospel"! For such Paul said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Paul's brand of the gospel I can accept. Yours is off-brand; therefore I reject. And that is probably what Paul was referring to in your quote.

[Robert]

From Whom did Adam and Eve get their DNA?

This same source also provided the DNA for the human body of Jesus Christ. Can God create anything that is not perfect and holy?

More heresy!!!!

Adam and Eve were created perfect. They were immortal...they were indwelt with agape. There was no bent-to-self...no self-seeking...no self-love and selfishness until the fall. Then they became indwelt with iniquity.

Since Adam is our father we are born into,

1] A fallen race

2] A sinful race

We stand condemned "in Adam"

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 11

-CT- Obedience and Sanctification

-PR- 03

-PG- 88

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences....

Christ, as God, took upon His sinless Deity our sinful humanity indwelt with iniquity. However, He always remained Himself much like you remain yourself, a sinner, even though the Holy Spirit (who is Deity too) dwells in you. The Holy Spirit does NOT become a sinner and, at the same time, you don't become God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I won't even begin to mince words with you on this one. What you are teaching is a pure' date=' unadulterated lie!!!!

Quote:

Ours dies when we are buried with Him in baptism, Rom 6:1-4.

I must denounce this heresy as of the devil and all who adhere to it as presenting "another gospel"! For such Paul said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" [/quote']

Paul's brand of the gospel I can accept. Yours is off-brand; therefore I reject. And that is probably what Paul was referring to in your quote.

No, you are a liar! You don't accept Paul...you pervert the gospel he presented. You are an enemy of the gospel and men like yourself I will continue to oppose until my dying day.

Tell me, o'wise one, who died in the following (and this is Paul)?

Romans 7:4 You died to the law in the body of Christ.

[Robert]

will God provide the Substitute without good behavior? The Bible gives a resounding, "NO!!!"

Pure Catholic at heart....Legalist! You have the cart before the horse....You are ignorant concerning the gospel. You are old school, old covenant, and must be opposed. You, and your kind, are what is wrong with Adventism.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

From Whom did Adam and Eve get their DNA?

This same source also provided the DNA for the human body of Jesus Christ. Can God create anything that is not perfect and holy?

More heresy!!!!

My, my! How quickly you flash your branding iron! You are so full of it I doubt you can recognize one when you saw it.

Quote:

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences....

Share the consequences of Adam's sin? YESSSSSSSSSSSS. Because we are born in his camp.

Share in Adam's guilt? NO WAY JOSE!!! That's heresy!!!

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son." Ez 18:20 ESV.

[Robert]

You are correct in saying "the law isn't in the business of forgiveness...no partial credit for good behavior." That's why I need a substitute who fulfills the requirement of the law in every detail.

And what saves you is His life lived in you 2000 years ago. Nothing He does in you, the fruit, merits anything. It merely demonstrates the gospel you have accepted. All false gospels produce self-righteous fruit...the same thing the Pharisees produced. All they did was to be seen of men....

No, the law says you must obey, but it also says you must die because you are indwelt with iniquity and have sinned. So Christ took your humanity into Himself 2000 years ago. In that corporate life He said NO to the principle of self-love and in that life YOU died because the law demanded your death. "In Him" you are complete. Any other addition to this truth (the eternal gospel) brings the curse...God abandonment.

[Robert]

Share in Adam's guilt? NO WAY JOSE!!! That's heresy!!!

I'm sorry, that quote is from EGW!

[Robert]

"The soul who sins shall die.

Bingo...Now continue to think where you normally fall into a deep sleep. Christ, the sinless one, can't die your death because He isn't the sinner. The law demands your death! You, the sinner, must die. Hence at the incarnation He took upon His Deity your fallen life from Adam.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

will God provide the Substitute without good behavior? The Bible gives a resounding, "NO!!!"

Pure Catholic at heart....Legalist! You have the cart before the horse....You are ignorant concerning the gospel. You are old school, old covenant, and must be opposed. You, and your kind, are what is wrong with Adventism.

"The the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives IN THIS PRESENT AGE." Tit 2:11,12 NIV.

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? BY NO MEANS!!!!! How can we who died to sin still LIVE in it?" Rom 6:1,2 ESV.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Pure Catholic at heart....Legalist! You have the cart before the horse....You are ignorant concerning the gospel. You are old school, old covenant, and must be opposed. You, and your kind, are what is wrong with Adventism. [/quote'][color:blue]

"The the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passions...

The "grace of God"! It doesn't teach your heresy:

"will God provide the Substitute without good behavior? The Bible gives a resounding, "NO!!!"

If you have the right gospel there will be geniuine fruit (not perfection). The fruit will be motivated by agape, the gift of the Spirit to those who accept their position and salvation "in Christ" alone.

So, if you reject that "in Christ" you died and that "in Christ" you were made obedient, then the Holy Spirit will not work in you for to do so would bring legitimacy to your false gospel of I plus Christ or faith & works....We are saved "in Christ" period.

[Gerr]

Paul's brand of the gospel I can accept. Yours is off-brand; therefore I reject. And that is probably what Paul was referring to in your quote.

No, you are a liar! You don't accept Paul...you pervert the gospel he presented. You are an enemy of the gospel and men like yourself I will continue to oppose until my dying day.

Tell me, o'wise one, who died in the following (and this is Paul)?

Romans 7:4 You died to the law in the body of Christ.

Would Paul contradict himself?

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4 ESV

I can tell you WHEN I was baptized. It was within MY lifetime!

IF EVERYONE SINCE THE CROSS DIED WITH CHRIST 2000 YRS AGO, THEN ALL ARE SAVED!

[Lutz13]

Did God twist the arms of the Jews & the Romans to kill His Son? NO!!! It was Satan who was in control of the mob and the priests. Yet it was God's will/pleasure to sacrifice His Son. Here's another example of a shared responsibility again, so that one writer viewing at the picture can say, God did it. Then another writer looking from another vantage point, can say, the Jews or the Romans did it. The correct picture emerges when you put them all together.

I'm still not seeing it. So it was Gods will for His Son to be sacrificed. So Satan did Gods will....

Just like we both see the clear picture of Jesus. I'm willing to bet people still blame God for many of the acts that have been done. We see how God deals with sin through Christ. Why would it be any different at any point in time since He is the same yesterday, today and forever?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Share in Adam's guilt? NO WAY JOSE!!! That's heresy!!!

I'm sorry, that quote is from EGW!

Yes?

[Robert]

Romans 7:4 You died to the law in the body of Christ.

[Musicman1228]

This sounds as if we are going 'round in circles-kind of like when Paul says one thing, then says another and says he really didn't mean what he said the first time; this is circular reasoning. Can we cut to the chase? If we can answer the following questions using the words of Jesus Christ himself, or by either the Old Testament or John in Rev. we can actually come to consensus, because truth can be defined. Give texts that apply to each question. I'll do this if you will.

Does God use Satan to work the will of God? and visa versa?

Who/what affects the destruction of the wicked?

How are the wicked identified?

How are the righteous identified?

Where must a person be in order to have eternal life?

Does God have a Kingdom on earth today? If so, who or what are they?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I'm sorry' date=' that quote is from EGW! [/quote']

Yes?

Yes? What about it? You are the one using her writings to buttress your arguments when it suits you and discount it when she contradicts you.

Here's what THE Bible says about individual responsibility for guilt:

1. "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ez 18:10 ESV.

2. "But he did not put to death the children of the murderers, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the Lord commanded, “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. But each one shall die for his own sin.” 2 Ki 14:6 ESV.

3. "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin." Dt 24:16 ESV.

Supposing that she meant to say what you think she is saying in your quote, whom shall I take as my authority? SOLA SCRIPTURA! But the fact is, I don't believe EGW contradicts Scripture. Here is what she says on how someone can share in the guilt of others:

1. "The Lord would teach His people to acknowledge the justice of His corrections, that others may fear. There were those in Israel whom the warning of this terrible judgment might save from presuming upon God’s forbearance until they, too, should seal their own destiny. The divine rebuke is upon that false sympathy for the sinner which endeavors to excuse his sin. It is the effect of sin to deaden the moral perceptions, so that the wrongdoer does not realize the enormity of transgression, and without the convicting power of the Holy Spirit he remains in partial blindness to his sin. It is the duty of Christ’s servants to show these erring ones their peril. Those who destroy the effect of the warning by blinding the eyes of sinners to the real character and results of sin often flatter themselves that they thus give evidence of their charity; but they are working directly to oppose and hinder the work of God’s Holy Spirit; they are lulling the sinner to rest on the brink of destruction; they are making themselves partakers in his guilt and incurring a fearful responsibility for his impenitence. Many, many, have gone down to ruin as the result of this false and deceptive sympathy. "{PP 361.2}

White, E. G. (1890; 2002). The Story of Patriarchs and Prophets as Illustrated in the Lives of Holy Men of Old; Conflict of the Ages Series, Volume 1; Patriarchs and Prophets (361). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

2. "When Moses was entreating Israel to flee from the coming destruction, the divine judgment might even then have been stayed, if Korah and his company had repented and sought forgiveness. But their stubborn persistence sealed their doom. The entire congregation were sharers in their guilt, for all had, to a greater or less degree, sympathized with them. Yet God in His great mercy made a distinction between the leaders in rebellion and those whom they had led. The people who had permitted themselves to be deceived were still granted space for repentance. Overwhelming evidence had been given that they were wrong, and that Moses was right. The signal manifestation of God’s power had removed all uncertainty." {PP 401.2}

White, E. G. (1890; 2002). The Story of Patriarchs and Prophets as Illustrated in the Lives of Holy Men of Old; Conflict of the Ages Series, Volume 1; Patriarchs and Prophets (401). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

3. "God held Eli, as a priest and judge of Israel, accountable for the moral and religious standing of his people, and in a special sense for the character of his sons. He should first have attempted to restrain evil by mild measures; but if these did not avail, he should have subdued the wrong by the severest means. He incurred the Lord’s displeasure by not reproving sin and executing justice upon the sinner. He could not be depended upon to keep Israel pure. Those who have too little courage to reprove wrong, or who through indolence or lack of interest make no earnest effort to purify the family or the church of God, are held accountable for the evil that may result from their neglect of duty. We are just as responsible for evils that we might have checked in others by exercise of parental or pastoral authority as if the acts had been our own." {PP 578.2}

White, E. G. (1890; 2002). The Story of Patriarchs and Prophets as Illustrated in the Lives of Holy Men of Old; Conflict of the Ages Series, Volume 1; Patriarchs and Prophets (578). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

So according to EGW, the only way we could be sharing the guilt of someone is to sympathize with them, belittle the effect of the warning against sin, or not restraining evil when it is in our power to do so.

[Musicman1228]

Oh, I'm sorry I forgot to tell you that while I am an SDA I will only use the words of Jesus Christ, the words of God in the Old Testament and Revelation as proofs for truth. I do not use EGW just as I won't use Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddie or anyone else that calls themselves a prophet but does not agree in every respect with what Jesus Christ said to His eyewitnesses Matthew, John, and possibly Mark. I hope this is not a problem for you Gerry.

[Stan]

every read her books? and which ones.. and how long ago

the proof is in the pudding, not what people said she said..

[Musicman1228]

I've actually read a lot of them, particularly The G.C. and Patriarchs and Prophets and Steps to Christ, and she has some good things to say, but there are also some substantial problems. I just don't see that using her is necessary in finding truth when we have the very words of Jesus Christ and Daniel and Revelation. If what Jesus said is true, that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, (and we know what he says is true) then we can rely on the Holy Spirit to give each of us the truth if we really want to know it. Why should I rely on any fallible human being when I can rely on the Son of God and the Holy Spirit as my teachers. Personally, I feel that it would be much better for the SDA church to get back to pre-EGW Bible study methods rather than relying on the point of view of one person to establish truth for an entire belief system. What do you think?

[Woody]

I think you make some very good points here Musicman. People have said that I quote Ellen White too much. So, I have tried to back off.

And welcome to the Forum. Will look forward to more of your posts.

[nuff sed]

Redwood:If you can't quote Ellen White who can you quote?????

My salvation is guaranteed by sola scriptura. I am, however, grateful for the writings of EGW which have allowed me to understand some issues that I cannot find explained anywhere else. I feel sorry for some people who feel threatened by EGW for various reasons.

[shadow]

You can quote the words of Jesus Christ. His words are truth. John 14: 6-7. God sent his son to teach us the truth. John 18:37. What more could we possibly need?