Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"And spared not the old world....

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion...

Both these quotes (if you carefully read them) reveals that God abandoned the human race previous to the flood, but the traditional teaching is God did it.....Clearly Peter says, God "spared not"....the same language used elsewhere: - "He gave them over" and "He spared not His only Son"....

When God is persistently and ultimately rejected He removes Himself because agape cannot force itself on others. What kills? The surrounding destruction - be it humans unjustly murdering Christ...or the devil bringing delusion upon unbelievers or the earth itself, because of sin, causing destruction (flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, earthquake).

EGW makes a statement that more technology was lost in the flood then mankind has now. Makes sense because mankind was much more intelligent then. I think that's were the dinosaurs came from...i.e., mankind manipulating the genetic codes of different spices. Even the seven last plagues are man made. They will happen because of what sin has done to this world. They will happen because mankind is his own destroyer be it pollution, nuclear technology, etc....Hence God is holding back the winds of strife....He is active in the protection of the human race both from sin and itself. But let God be fully rejected and these things will be unleashed because when God removes Himself His protection goes also....

I personally think their technology did it. Much like ours will cause the seven last plagues.

[Lutz13]

Oh, I missed your post above that talked about their technology. I agree!

TU TU TU

God wants to save us from ourselves.

[Musicman1228]

Is Gen. chapter 2 an extension of chapter 1 or a continuation from chapter 1?

God would like to save us from ourselves, but He never does because of 'free will'.

[Dr. Rich]

Isn't it interesting that Gen. 1 thru Gen 2:3 has "God" doing the creating and Gen.2:4 thru Gen 2:25 has "The Lord God" doing the creating? Then if you read the Septuagent in these verses it has the word 'flying creatures' in Gen 1 and 'birds' in Gen. 2. Therefore, it is very likely that God created mankind many thousands of years prior to 'The Lord God' creating Adam.

If this is true (its only a theory) then it would explain why Adam was placed into a garden set off from the rest of the world. Perhaps Adam was to be a witness to the rest of the world that was completely wicked. Would not this agree with both the bible and science? (Not with Paul who said Adam was the father of all mankind.)

[Lutz13]

Isn't it interesting that Gen. 1 thru Gen 2:3 has "God" doing the creating and Gen.2:4 thru Gen 2:25 has "The Lord God" doing the creating? Then if you read the Septuagent in these verses it has the word 'flying creatures' in Gen 1 and 'birds' in Gen. 2. Therefore, it is very likely that God created mankind many thousands of years prior to 'The Lord God' creating Adam.

If this is true (its only a theory) then it would explain why Adam was placed into a garden set off from the rest of the world. Perhaps Adam was to be a witness to the rest of the world that was completely wicked. Would not this agree with both the bible and science? (Not with Paul who said Adam was the father of all mankind.)

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Hebrews 11:1)My faith is in scripture, even what Paul wrote. Seeing as how you are trying to take that away from me, I would assume I am to respond in the same manor as Christ did.

"Away with you, Satan!" Matthew 4:7

[Dr. Rich]

Lutz13, did I just read that you called me "Satan"? I was baptized by a Lutz way back in 1958 in Boulder Colorado.

BTW-no one now knows what really happened way back then so it is all just theory-right? Neither did Paul or Peter for that matter. And then there is the problem with 1st and 2nd Peter anyway that makes it hard to believe Peter the apostle really wrote it. (Do your own research here) As Rush Limbaugh said "You can't argue facts with someone who based their belief in faith".

I could respond to you with what Christ said too, but then that would not be the nice thing to do--would it?

Do you have a problem with answering questions by using only the old testament and words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses? As for me, I find it hard to trust others such as the unknown writer of Hebrews. Jesus told us to place our trust in His words and that is what I am doing.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"And spared not the old world....

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion...

the traditional teaching is God did it.....Clearly Peter says, God "spared not"....the same language used elsewhere: - "He gave them over" and "He spared not His only Son"....

When God is persistently and ultimately rejected He removes Himself because agape cannot force itself on others. What kills? The surrounding destruction - be it humans unjustly murdering Christ...or the devil bringing delusion upon unbelievers or the earth itself, because of sin, causing destruction (flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, earthquake).

There is some truth to what you say. God does allow mankind to reap the consequences of sin and of rebellion. God does withdraw his protection and his favor from people. But the book of Revelation shows the Seven Last Plagues originate from the heavenly sanctuary, and the book of Genesis says over and over again that God is the One who destroyed the world with a flood. The Bible is clear on those things. Ellen White says the same thing.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

the traditional teaching is God did it.....Clearly Peter says' date=' God "spared not"....the same language used elsewhere: - "He gave them over" and "He spared not His only Son"....

When God is persistently and ultimately rejected He removes Himself because agape cannot force itself on others. What kills? The surrounding destruction - be it humans unjustly murdering Christ...or the devil bringing delusion upon unbelievers or the earth itself, because of sin, causing destruction (flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, earthquake).

[/quote']

There is some truth to what you say. God does allow mankind to reap the consequences of sin and of rebellion. God does withdraw his protection and his favor from people. But the book of Revelation shows the Seven Last Plagues originate from the heavenly sanctuary, and the book of Genesis says over and over again that God is the One who destroyed the world with a flood. The Bible is clear on those things. Ellen White says the same thing.

No, it's not clear when you look at those other verses....The ones where God says, "I did it" but upon reflection God didn't do it actively. God's so called wrath is passive.

[Lutz13]

Lutz13, did I just read that you called me "Satan"? I was baptized by a Lutz way back in 1958 in Boulder Colorado.

BTW-no one now knows what really happened way back then so it is all just theory-right? Neither did Paul or Peter for that matter. And then there is the problem with 1st and 2nd Peter anyway that makes it hard to believe Peter the apostle really wrote it. (Do your own research here) As Rush Limbaugh said "You can't argue facts with someone who based their belief in faith".

I could respond to you with what Christ said too, but then that would not be the nice thing to do--would it?

Do you have a problem with answering questions by using only the old testament and words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses? As for me, I find it hard to trust others such as the unknown writer of Hebrews. Jesus told us to place our trust in His words and that is what I am doing.

Satan would love for me to give up scripture. To lose faith in the word of God. So yes, your theology is Satanic.

[BobRyan]

Where does it say that all the people that were killed by God in the flood descended from Adam? Gen. 1:26 says that God created MANKIND (look up the Hebrew word) on the 6th day of Creation. It doesn't say that God created Adam (and certainly not Eve) on the 6th day of creation week. How is it possible for a fully functional society with massive infrastructure (much less a sophisticated and accurate calendar) like the Mayan culture could be produced in less that 300 years following the creating of Adam and forming of Eve? Impossible. The nations were created on the 6th day of creation week.

[BobRyan]

Isn't it interesting that Gen. 1 thru Gen 2:3 has "God" doing the creating and Gen.2:4 thru Gen 2:25 has "The Lord God" doing the creating? Then if you read the Septuagent in these verses it has the word 'flying creatures' in Gen 1 and 'birds' in Gen. 2. Therefore, it is very likely that God created mankind many thousands of years prior to 'The Lord God' creating Adam.

Wrong.

But it is helpful that you label your guesswork with terms like 'very likely that'.

Instead the Bible tells us that man was created on the 6th day in Genesis 1.

It tells us that man was created in form of a male and a female on the 6th day in Genesis 1.

It tells us the name of the man - in Genesis 2 -- Adam.

And that Adam was the one who named the woman "Eve".

It tells us that Adam was first "created" and then Eve in 1Tim 2.

It tells us that Adam was the first man to sin in Romans 5.

All the Geneologies in scripture that go back to the time of Adam (no too surprising once you see the geneology of Noah). But even BEFORE the flood all genelogies go to Adam. Christ said that Adam and Eve were married "From the beginning" Matt 19:4.

So who should we believe? The Word of God or the guesswork of humanist mythologies?

Pick whichever one you please - I choose the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

No, it's not clear when you look at those other verses....The ones where God says, "I did it" but upon reflection God didn't do it actively. God's so called wrath is passive.

wrong.

God caused the flood. God opened of the earth to swallow up Korah and Dathan - Numbers 16:32.

God then sent fire out and consumed 250 Levites who were offering incense "before the Lord" Num 16:35.

God rained fire and Soddom and Gomorrah in Genesis Genesis 18.

God says that the fire HE rained on those cities was "eternal fire" in Jude 7 telling us that they are "examples of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire".

God says that HE alone can "destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" in Matt 10:28.

God says HE is the one who alone destroys the wicked and the old earth in Rev 20 -- to then go on to "alone" make the New Earth in Rev 21.

The guesswork of man - is a poor substitute for the Word of God -- as it turns out.

In 2 Samuel 7:14 God says that He would correct the nation of Israel with "The rod of man" and so God sends Syria, God sends Babylon against His own people!.

But that can not be bent and twisted to then argue that Syria destroyed the world by a flood or that Babylon rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah or that Syria and Babylon destroy the world and the wicked with fire and brimstone in Rev 20. Such bending and wrenching of scripture - is without Bible support at all.

And that is the "kind" of argument we are treated to by those who want to take ONE instance of the act of God in punishing and try to then wrench and bend ALL cases of God's judgment to become nothing more than the ONE they favor.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest WilloMar]

"My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." James 3:1

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev. 22:20

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, it's not clear when you look at those other verses....The ones where God says, "I did it" but upon reflection God didn't do it actively. God's so called wrath is passive.

wrong.

Wrong!

[Robert]

God caused the flood.

[Robert]

God says....

You shall be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But I don't see you adhering to this one. Funny, you quote God when it is convenient for you, but when it's not...well....

The Bible seems full of contradictions, until you understand God's love. Since you place human attributes onto God, you perverted everything you read from His love to His justice and even the gospel

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

God caused the flood.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

[Dr. Rich]

Come on you guys, you both (bob and robert) seem to be acting rather childish over this. One day soon serious things are going to happen to this earth if prophecy is correct. Those who believe their god is so full of love that he would not do all of the destruction are going to be in a world of hurt. Stay tuned...

[BobRyan]

Well as I said before - the key is to believe the Bible instead of ignoring it.

As I already pointed out - there is the 2Sam 7:14 example where God uses "the rod of man" to punish. So that would be man doing something evil to man - not God.

And then there is ANOTHER example - as we have in Job where Satan is allowed to do something evil to man. (The destructive judgments that are allowed to come upon mankind in Revelation BEFORE the close of probation and the 7 last plagues - would be an example of this).

And then there is yet ANOTHER example (in fact a whole set of them) where God HIMSELF does the destruction - the flood, the 7 last plagues, Sodom, Ananias and Saphira etc are good examples.

No possible way to shoehorn revisionist-history all of them into just one example.

So yes -- just believing the Bible on this point is the most direct and accurate method.

And as you see - we are about to see examples of all three of these kinds of events in the near future.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Those who believe their god is so full of love that he would not do all of the destruction are going to be in a world of hurt. Stay tuned...

I refuse to fall in line on these scare tactics. When these things happen it's because God is not around....Otherwise I need to be afraid of God, but the Bible says -- "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

[Robert]

Well as I said before - the key is to believe the Bible instead of ignoring it.

Yes, and you are ignoring those "other texts" because it contradicts your traditional view of God. Like the Jews of old you want a king like the kings of this world. That's why Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews."

Again, you have placed on God human attributes...human actions, which are sinful. You have perverted God's love into human love, which is self-seeking and vindictive.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Come on you guys, you both (bob and robert) seem to be acting rather childish over this. One day soon serious things are going to happen to this earth if prophecy is correct. Those who believe their god is so full of love that he would not do all of the destruction are going to be in a world of hurt. Stay tuned...

I refuse to believe that God and Satan take turns.

"Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?'"(Isaiah 14:16-17)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I refuse to fall in line on these scare tactics. When these things happen it's because God is not around....Otherwise I need to be afraid of God, but the Bible says -- "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

That fear is taught by men. Those who tell you to be afraid of God do not know God.

"Therefore the Lord said: Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men."(Isaiah 29:13)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Well as I said before - the key is to believe the Bible instead of ignoring it.

Stop surface reading and dig deeper. God will unlock it all for you.

Quote:

As I already pointed out - there is the 2Sam 7:14 example where God uses "the rod of man" to punish. So that would be man doing something evil to man - not God.

So if man does it, it makes it kosher?

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."(Romans 12:21)

Quote:

And then there is ANOTHER example - as we have in Job where Satan is allowed to do something evil to man. (The destructive judgments that are allowed to come upon mankind in Revelation BEFORE the close of probation and the 7 last plagues - would be an example of this).

Also in Job we see Job repenting. So he must have done something wrong to bring on Gods wrath.(God stepping aside)

Quote:

And then there is yet ANOTHER example (in fact a whole set of them) where God HIMSELF does the destruction - the flood, the 7 last plagues, Sodom, Ananias and Saphira etc are good examples.

Yes, Gods wrath was upon them.

Example:

“For our fathers have trespassed and done evil in the eyes of the Lord our god. They have forsaken Him, have turned their faces away from the dwelling place of the Lord, and turned their backs on Him.”(2 Chronicles 29:6)

“Therefore the wrath of the Lord fell upon Judah and Jerusalem, and He has given them up to trouble, to desolation, and to jeering, as you see with your eyes.”(2 Chronicles 29:8)

Every example you listed is the same. God pulled out. God doesn't change ever so every instance where He deals out His wrath is the same. He steps aside. Man caused the flood, just like the seven last plagues will be caused by man. Maybe you haven't noticed what we are doing to the world already.

Quote:

And as you see - we are about to see examples of all three of these kinds of events in the near future.

They are already slowly being seen today. This is not caused by God, this is caused by people rejecting God. When God removed His arm from Jerusalem in 70AD it was destroyed by the destroyer.(Satan)

[Musicman1228]

So what you are saying is that all punishment is evil so God uses Satan to carry out God's punishments on the wicked because God can't do it Himself?

I suppose Satan will cast himself in the Lake of Fire to save God the trouble.