Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[LifeHiscost]

The doomsday pessimists would rather see the vengence thing played out than to see God remake everything, and everyone, new again. Having some sinful people that God can't fix so that he has to destroy them completely is the rock he created too big for him to lift and carry.

""When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.

"But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.

"Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus you have spoken, saying, "Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?"'"Ezekiel 33:8-10 NASB

"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

"Ezekiel 33:11 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

You've got problems teehe

Who has the problem of believing God made some things so confusing, it is found easier to throw out the Word we find difficult to accept, in order to make individuals feel good in their sin.

"For God is not the author of confusion...." 1 Corinthians 14:32 NKJV

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires..."2 Timothy 4:3 NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

This text is so plain as to make it absurd to deny that Saul fell on his sword....Wait a minute..........................

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."Genesis 50:20 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

The wicked are dead during the 1000 years! They are dead!!! DEAD!!! Why in the heck would you raise them back up, just to destroy them all over again?

There is more than one reason as one of my previous posts indicated, but if this were the only reason, it would be God's and therefor reason enough, no matter what I thought.

I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

Isaiah 45:23 NKJV

"For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God.”"Romans 14:11 NKJV

Regards!

[Lutz13]

The wicked are dead during the 1000 years! They are dead!!! DEAD!!! Why in the heck would you raise them back up, just to destroy them all over again?

Well Mr. Lutz. ( ) The answer to that question is:

"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."(Romans 5:18) So as you can see, all men receive the gift of salvation and are raised up. Of course the goats and the sheep are separated so they aren't both raised up at the same time. Everyone gets raised up though! "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead."(1 Corinthians 15:21)

The sad thing is, many will sell their free gift just as Esau sold his birthright. They do not change and "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law."(1 Corinthians 15:56) They would rather die than enter into heaven. I do not know how they die in the end though. Often God takes blame for what He permits. So at this point, nobody knows!

[LifeHiscost]

You know, I wish I were like you and could turn a blind eye to this because this puts a huge stumbling block before me. There is a wall I keep running into. It is bothering me! I pray to God daily, and talk with Him hourly about this, and I am still finding new evidence. Why?

It could be that you do not trust that God has no malice when He takes a life and you do not seem to recognize that He has untold

billions of created beings He sees need to protect rather than letting the wicked slaughter them for the purpose of control to enslave.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

If the wicked were allowed freedom to roam the universe with power to do as they chose for eternity, that which you see happening to Jesus in the final period of His life on this earth as a human being, is the scene you would see repeated adinfinitum.

God had left Himself with few options for the solution to the problem of the wicked. Either allow the rebellious to live for eternity, corralled someplace where they would be no threat to the rest of the universe, and eternally miserable because of their forced incarceration, or allow them to submit to the God Who loved them from the beginning and would accept their due penalty in the life given by His Son on this earth, so they could live to receive the change He freely offered them.

The rebel's final end is a matter of choosing death rather than submit to a universe they could not control for their own purposes.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;"Deuteronomy 30:19 NKJV

"They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them." Revelation 20:9 NIV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I won't say you're wrong though, because you never know. I do sometimes wonder though. God being all knowing, and perfect. Whom nothing is impossible, if He did have a way to save all of creation. Wishful thinking though right?

Some believe God has no limits. However that is not Biblically sound.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 NASB

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."Romans 8:28 NIV

Regards!

[pnattmbtc]

Is it necessary for God to use violence in order to achieve His purposes?

[LifeHiscost]

You need to examine not only your favorite verses, but those that contradict them.

Until one understands God does not contradict Himself, that when the Word appears to contradict, it is our understanding where the failure lies.

The solution is to accept God's Word as true and continue to search for understanding until both reveal His love. We will never be eliminated from heaven for our misunderstanding of theology. Our dismissal will be predicated on what we did understand and then chose to refuse to accept.

"...in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began...

" Titus 1:2 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Often God takes blame for what He permits.

I'm satisfied to believe that Jesus, (and our Father, since They are One) takes blame for all the transgression that has occurred, as testified to through the death of Jesus on the cross. Those who were not born in perfect conditions, such as Lucifer was, have been given the opportunity to receive eternal life, which actually takes place before Jesus comes. Why all who can, do not accept that opportunity, I'm unsure we will ever know the reason. I can be sure God knows. I trust and love God enough to waive any desire to have Him explain Himself to me, although for our sake He is willing and will.

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work..."2 Thess 2:7 NKJV

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."1 John 5:12 NKJV

Blessings!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Often God takes blame for what He permits.

I'm satisfied to believe that Jesus, (and our Father, since They are One) takes blame for all the transgression that has occurred, as testified to through the death of Jesus on the cross. Those who were not born in perfect conditions, such as Lucifer was, have been given the opportunity to receive eternal life, which actually takes place before Jesus comes. Why all who can, do not accept that opportunity, I'm unsure we will ever know the reason. I can be sure God knows. I trust and love God enough to waive any desire to have Him explain Himself to me, although for our sake He is willing and will.

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work..."2 Thess 2:7 NKJV

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."1 John 5:12 NKJV

Blessings!

AMEN!!!

[LifeHiscost]

Is it necessary for God to use violence in order to achieve His purposes?

Even in the human race, at least in a nation where Christian principles are considered, the serial killer who has strangled, tortured and brought untold misery into the lives of many, after a fair trial, duly convicted, and receiving the death penalty, goes to his end peacefully by lethal injection. Is God more just?

Knowing God never is less than Love, and Love will not abandon those who receive Him, to the ongoing depredations of the wicked, it would appear to me that any loss of life through His Personal oversight would be accomplished by the minimal amount of violence to overcome the violent struggles by the wicked, who wish to avoid their just and certain rewards.

Could it be any other way by Him Who considers the lowest of His creatures with such care. The fact that unmitigated violence by the wicked in their effort to overthrow our Father and His children, greatly confuses the issue by the accusation of the "accuser of the brethren", can only necessitate the final demise of any who would cling to the darkness for the sake of all who choose to live in the light as He is in the light.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." Matthew 10:29 KJV

" They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are." Rev 20:9,10 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

AMEN!!!

Good to see you're up and about today, Richard. Hope your day is a good one.

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

Even in the human race, at least in a nation where Christian principles are considered, the serial killer who has strangled, tortured and brought untold misery into the lives of many, after a fair trial, duly convicted, and receiving the death penalty, goes to his end peacefully by lethal injection. Is God more just?

This isn't a valid comparison because the state does not give life to its citizens. Life comes from God, so it's necessary for the state to do something violent to terminate it. God could simply cease giving a person life, and the person would die. There's certainly no need for God to violently end a person's life, in order for Him to cause it to terminate.

So why does He? Or does He? Is God dependent upon violence in order to accomplish His purposes?

[skyblue888]

" They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are." Rev 20:9,10 NKJV

The Bible uses strong language but we must be careful as not to put our own construction upon the words.

That fire will not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked any more than the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The book of Ezekiel makes that for ever clear. In the end all the unsaved will turn upon Satan and his evil angels and they will bring them down to the pit. This is how Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21 and Ezekiel 28:7,8.

For "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themsleves, to read that which they have sown." The Great Controversy, p.36.

This principle is always true no matter how the Scriptures may seem to indicate any differently.

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, vol.24, 3.1.

"The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." The Great Controversy, p.343.

[skyblue888]

Mrs, White, in vision, describes how Satan and his angels will be brought down to the pit and then quotes Ezekiel 28:7,8.

This takes place after the 1,000 years at the time of the executive judgment of the unsaved.

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. The Great Controversy, p.670.

So here she makes it very clear that the language used by the Bible in regard to the destruction of the wicked simply means that the Lord will not intervene when the unsaved, among them the terrible of the nations, shall turn against Satan and his angels and they will tear them down to pieces and then turn upon each other just as it will take place before the second coming of Christ during the sixth plague.

Satan and his evil angels will have been stripped of much of their power and they will have to fight with the strength equal to that of men.

sky

[phkrause]

Richard we do know that he does get what he wants, That's for sure, but not like oldsailor thinks. Because first God has given us choice, so obviously we need to chose each and every day who's side we're on. Because if all are going to be saved, which would mean that Hitler, Stalin, Judus, etc., would be included in that senario. If I'm not mistaken, Judus never repented, neither did Hitler or Stalin. I know we're not suppose to judge this, because only God knows who will be there. But I personally would have a hard time believing they will be there.

pk

[teresaq]

... and God the Father took the breath of His only begotten Son and He died. ...

wow!! ive never heard of that one before.

well, if thats what you have decided...

[teresaq]

Did it not kill Jesus when God the Father turned his back on the scene?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Is it necessary for God to use violence in order to achieve His purposes?

Even in the human race, at least in a nation where Christian principles are considered, the serial killer who has strangled, tortured and brought untold misery into the lives of many, after a fair trial, duly convicted, and receiving the death penalty, goes to his end peacefully by lethal injection. Is God more just?

this is interesting. our penal institutions are not set up to reclaim and rehabilitate human beings as anyone working in those institutions will tell you.

so are you saying God is just like us?

[teresaq]

Mrs, White, in vision, describes how Satan and his angels will be brought down to the pit and then quotes Ezekiel 28:7,8.

This takes place after the 1,000 years at the time of the executive judgment of the unsaved.

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. The Great Controversy, p.670.

So here she makes it very clear that the language used by the Bible in regard to the destruction of the wicked simply means that the Lord will not intervene when the unsaved, among them the terrible of the nations, shall turn against Satan and his angels and they will tear them down to pieces and then turn upon each other just as it will take place before the second coming of Christ during the sixth plague.

Satan and his evil angels will have been stripped of much of their power and they will have to fight with the strength equal to that of men.

sky

we are in general agreement here.

[pnattmbtc]

I liked this post: #274241.

Does God need to use violence to achieve His goals?

[teresaq]

Can God achieve His goals without violence? If we say He isn't dependent on anything, but He uses violence to achieve His goals, that just begs another question, which is why would God use violence to achieve His goals (assuming that He does) if He doesn't need to?

i came across someone who essentially said God would be weak if He didnt act in violence.

but i wonder if there is more to it. i wonder if, in the mind, it isnt seeing God as not personal, or not caring enough to "stick up for us".

im in a hurry so i hope this made some sense. i have to run see where a little goat is before running to take off for the week. :)

[Lutz13]

Mrs, White, in vision, describes how Satan and his angels will be brought down to the pit and then quotes Ezekiel 28:7,8.

This takes place after the 1,000 years at the time of the executive judgment of the unsaved.

"Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. The Great Controversy, p.670.

So here she makes it very clear that the language used by the Bible in regard to the destruction of the wicked simply means that the Lord will not intervene when the unsaved, among them the terrible of the nations, shall turn against Satan and his angels and they will tear them down to pieces and then turn upon each other just as it will take place before the second coming of Christ during the sixth plague.

Satan and his evil angels will have been stripped of much of their power and they will have to fight with the strength equal to that of men.

sky

Very well said Sky. I also think that is how they go as well. But it is something I truly won't know until it happens. It is all speculation at this point.

[John317]

The wicked are dead during the 1000 years! They are dead!!! DEAD!!! Why in the heck would you raise them back up, just to destroy them all over again?

There are at least three reasons:

1) When the wicked are raised, they prove by their behavior that they aren't any different than when they went into the grave. They are still opposed to God and to righteousness. They prove that if given another chance, they wouldn't change. They aren't safe to save. They would continue their rebellion against God.

2) It's only just that the wicked understand the reason they are rejected and must die eternally.

3) The entire universe watches as the wicked--including Satan-- admit that God is just and right and that they deserve to die. It helps bring a just and satisfactory closure to the sin problem.