Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

as you so clearly point out in this statement our pioneers understood very clearly that there was a permissive and causative sense used in the bible. just because God said i, such and such does not mean He literally did it. it could very well mean He would allow, or not work to prevent the inevitable. i remember discovering that some decades ago, which i had understood to be the position of the seventh day adventist church. i mean that was how i explained difficult texts to non-sdas

imagine my surprise to find that adventists in general do not know that.

james white had a very good article on the permissive sense used in "the hardening of pharoahs heart".

None of that is talking about the destruction of the wicked, and does not pertain to God's strange act which he will perform at the end. God has to do it there is no way around it.

Richard, we are talking about the language of the Bible in general when it comes to describing God's actions, God's behaviour. That language is consistent throughout the Bible.

We both believe that Satan and his evil angels and the wicked of all ages will be annihilated and that they will be as though they had never been. What we don't agree on is how to understand the language of the Bible. Saul killed himself and yet the Bible says that God slew him. It is important that we understand the principles of God's dealing with men which are ever the same. These principles reveal the character of God, His ways. Of the Jews God said that they could not enter in to His rest because they did not know His ways. So these things pertain to salvation because to know Him aright is eternal life.

sky

[skyblue888]

Quote:

so if there is just a finger left it is suffering pain?

how about part of a leg?

Well ... it's best not to question our prophet.

Red, don't u ever say that again here coz I will have you demoded! If there is someone here who questions "our prophet" it is you Red and you know it. In an earlier post you said that we should give her some slack because, as you claimed, "our prophet" is not perfect.

You contradict yourself all the time. Either you don't even realize what you are saying half of the time or you are doing this purposely. The Lord knows.

sky

[teresaq]

Ok staged video.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

whether or not we landed on the moon we have "debris" in space that needs cleaning up. :)

[Woody]

It's all in the way you interpret Sky. Apparently you are not a very good mind reader. And you rarely ask for clarification. You just run off as if you know .

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Ok staged video.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

whether or not we landed on the moon we have "debris" in space that needs cleaning up.

What I'd like to know is how did they manage to come back with so much moonrock?

[Guest]

Do not wait to see if others can see this before you believe. If you do, you will go on in darkness!

I disagree.

I don't believe my salvation, or yours, depends upon wheather we understand the destruction of the wicked.

[teresaq]

To believe that it comes from anywhere else is to make both the Bible and Ellen white to be a lie.

i understand why you say that. one needs to go through the bible systematicly to see how many times God said He did or would do something to find out that He didnt. after so many times discovering that something else happened instead that God just foretold one begins to look at other parts in a new light. so only according to our understanding at the moment does it look like the bible and ellen white are being made liars.

there is a gentleman here that believes that israel is still Gods chosen because he sees certain verses and has not understood, at the moment, the significance of other verses.

so it looks like to him that adventists and ellen white are making the bible out to be a liar.

its all in the perspective we are coming from.

but we do agree that there is much to discover and learn from the bible, right? that we dont have it down yet?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

so if there is just a finger left it is suffering pain?

how about part of a leg?

Well ... it's best not to question our prophet.

Red, don't u ever say that again here coz I will have you demoded! If there is someone here who questions "our prophet" it is you Red and you know it. In an earlier post you said that we should give her some slack because, as you claimed, "our prophet" is not perfect.

You contradict yourself all the times. Either you don't even realize what you are saying half of the time or you are doing this purposely. The Lord knows.

sky

this is discussing the person and not the topic.

see the rules

[Woody]

Quote:

its all in the perspective we are coming from.

Ain't that the Gospel Truth.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

To believe that it comes from anywhere else is to make both the Bible and Ellen white to be a lie.

i understand why you say that. one needs to go through the bible systematicly to see how many times God said He did or would do something to find out that He didnt. after so many times discovering that something else happened instead that God just foretold one begins to look at other parts in a new light. so only according to our understanding at the moment does it look like the bible and ellen white are being made liars.

there is a gentleman here that believes that israel is still Gods chosen because he sees certain verses and has not understood, at the moment, the significance of other verses.

so it looks like to him that adventists and ellen white are making the bible out to be a liar.

its all in the perspective we are coming from.

but we do agree that there is much to discover and learn from the bible, right? that we dont have it down yet?

I know there are places in the Bible where that is true. But you can't show me a single time where EGW said something she didn't mean, and she says the fire comes from GOD.

[Woody]

Quote:

I know there are places in the Bible where that is true. But you can't show me a single time where EGW said something she didn't mean, and she says the fire comes from GOD.

Yes Richard. But she did say things that were wrong. That was because she had not yet grown in her experience or God had not yet shown her the Truth.

[BobRyan]

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

[teresaq]

Great Controversy - 673..

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch

. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

bob, i dont remember you answering on the other forum the question about the parts of the body that hadnt been consumed yet.

if a finger is left of the body to be consumed is it still suffering? is the finger itself still suffering?

[Guest]

They will suffer till they're gone. Why does thet even make a difference?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Red' date=' don't u ever say that again here coz I will have you demoded! If there is someone here who questions "our prophet" it is you Red and you know it. In an earlier post you said that we should give her some slack because, as you claimed, "our prophet" is not perfect.

You contradict yourself all the times. Either you don't even realize what you are saying half of the time or you are doing this purposely. The Lord knows.

sky [/quote']this is discussing the person and not the topic.

see the rules

teresaq, your right and this time I did it on purpose just to give Red what he wants if you know what I mean. Just like the Bible says that God gives us the desire of our hearts. For example there are those who are continually looking for pegs in the Bible or the SOP to hang their doubts upon and the Lord gives them exactly what they are looking for. I know I am not God but I do know that Red takes great pleasure in contradicting every single thing I post to taunt me, in the hope that I will get impatient with him and then he will have cause to accuse me on this board of being unChristlike. He's done this so many times here and on other forums as well. There is nothing that Red wants more than to show how unChristlike I am. That way everything I share can be more easily discredited. Right Red? Correct me if I am wrong.

sky

[Guest]

Don't worry, you are very Christlike.

[Guest]

Except that Christ is going to destroy the wicked, where as you would just let them fight it out amongst themselves.

[skyblue888]

hehehe

[Guest]

LOL

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Great Controversy - 673..

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch

. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

bob, i dont remember you answering on the other forum the question about the parts of the body that hadnt been consumed yet.

if a finger is left of the body to be consumed is it still suffering? is the finger itself still suffering?

When I get to be God -- I bet I will know exactly right down to the finger what hurts and where

But I think that will take all of eternity -- and then some. So for now I just gotta believe what it says not knowing exactly how it works down to the pinky.

Have a question for you -- did you catch that part about "worm does not die" and what she said it meant??

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

It means Owwwww!!

[LifeHiscost]

We know also that in the last great battle Satan will suffer the longest. The more wicked a person is the more you can expect that person to fight to stay alive as opposed to the Lamb of God who surrendered His life to be crucified. He offered no resistance. That fiesty resistance on the part of Satan and his angels against those who would slay them will prove to be their worse nightmare and this is how they will suffer until they have received full retribution for all the suffering and sin they will have been responsible for.

You don't know how many years I've held that belief, not knowing where it came from, other than the fact that it had to have come from the Word(from God) or from the Spirit of Prophecy (from God). I've not pushed the evidence, figuring if it was of the Spirit, the person interested in listening to hear God's voice would accept it when he heard it.

"Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."" Isaiah 30:21 NIV

Thanks for the post.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

or are you saying you cant see any other possiblity than that God is violent?

you cant see how He could possibly attain results without being violent?

I'm of the opinion that God speaks or acts in the manner that deals with the problem according to the way the recipients will best understand. Some of the rebellious acquiesce easier and more quickly than others, therefor receive far different corrective effort. I do not believe God ever exercises more brutally than is necessary, if that word is appropriate when referring to the actions of the God Who is Love. IOW He will use the most merciful treatment to solve the problem in the best and shortest period of time, for ALL who might be involved or concerned with the issue.

"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

"Luke 12:48 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

it doesnt take much searching to find these instances over and over in the bible.

I think we can say this about those who search the Word with the desire for their ignorance to be alleviated with the wisdom that the Holy Spirit is willing to provide for those who ask. However not necessarily so for those who approach the Word with the primary purpose of putting others in their place. That would, of course, not include those who genuinely desire to give something from the Word to others, that has been a joy to their own soul.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him."James 1:5 NKJV

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Red, wait before you shoot yourself in the foot again!!!

No offense meant, Robert.