Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[LifeHiscost]

Usually this is taken to mean that God is the One doing the work of destruction. According to this interpretation, it does not matter that it is "strange" to Him, it is still Him who is directly doing it. This is the first view.

The second view is that "God destroys no man." C.O.L.84. "Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388.

God's strange work then is that He is constantly occupied to redeem, to save, to repair the ruin that sin and Satan have made.

sky

Guess I'll have to think on that for awhile.

"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."1 Corinthians 3:17 NKJV

If one isn't inclined to accept Paul as speaking through the power of the Holy Spirit, it could be argued there is a different meaning to the obvious. And perhaps this next text could lend something to that conclusion.

"...I have not come to judge and to condemn and to pass sentence and to inflict penalty on the world, but to save the world."John 12:47 AMP

There is a difference as to why He primarily came, and what He was forced to do in order to protect those who were put into His care.

"..... Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one."John 18:9 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

A staged video isn't valid proof that we have landed on the moon.

I watched a program within the last 48 hours on that very subject. One of the last evidences pointing towards the soon return of Jesus was that we would not be able to trust our senses in determining Truth in the final days of earth's history.

It seems to me not so important that we prove one way or the other, who is responsible for the damage incurred before Jesus sets things right at His coming. It also seems to me that Jesus accepted full responsibility for all the damage done as a result of sin, when He died on the cross.

I've found as a result of the interest paid to this subject, it is very important for some to prove the point, one way or the other. To find peace it seems more important to accept God's promises to those who put their trust in Him.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28 KJV

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained....

so if there is just a finger left it is suffering pain?

how about part of a leg?

Quote:

....Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294}

I recall when these tidbits of information were introduced in a particular Sabbath school class, the bitter feelings that emanated from a few of the members. At the time it seemed to me the response was from those who didn't really wish to hear the reality of the conditions that would exist as a result of harbored evil desires.

However after praying for many years that God would give me a softened heart that would be able to love the unlovely, I came to understand that many did not recognize they needed Divine power to get rid of the very things they felt powerless to get rid of in their own lives, even though they hated those things that controlled their actions.

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:23-25 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

But try as you may to tell adventists that God's ways of destroying are not as man's ways!

Thank you again for your last post.

God bless,

sky

Are you telling me that "die" does not mean cessation of life, but rather means a different lifestyle for the wicked in a burning fiery furnace throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity?

For your sake I hope this is not what you're saying, for if it is and you were correct, that would likely mean some of those you loved and desired to be with you in heaven, you would spend eternity with a knowledge that somewhere in the depths of that furnace, they would be writhing in agony in that fire.

Please clarify, even if this is a subject in which we need to start another thread.

Blessings!

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Ok staged video.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

whether or not we landed on the moon we have "debris" in space that needs cleaning up.

Noooooooo! I am kind of hoping to bump into Voyager I and II sometime while exploring space!! Then I can take them and put them in my junk pile in the house I build on Jupiter!

[Lutz13]

but we do agree that there is much to discover and learn from the bible, right? that we dont have it down yet?

Amen to that! It is a fact that we do not know all the secrets that are contained in the bible.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

whether or not we landed on the moon we have "debris" in space that needs cleaning up. [/quote']

What I'd like to know is how did they manage to come back with so much moonrock?

What makes you think it is moon rock? Because some guy on TV says so? I don't buy it...You can take a video and slow it down and walah! You have a moon walk.

[Lutz13]

Yes Richard. But she did say things that were wrong. That was because she had not yet grown in her experience or God had not yet shown her the Truth.

Right. Her angel said that there would be people in her time that wouldn't see death. That they would see Jesus coming in the clouds.

[Lutz13]

Except that Christ is going to destroy the wicked, where as you would just let them fight it out amongst themselves.

Haha... It kind of reminds me of: If a guy jumps off a building. Does God need to kill him before he hits the pavement(sin)? Or will the pavement(sin) do it for Him?

[BobRyan]

In the example below - the key detail is that God had already let the wicked die - however they were going to die. The events below are "supernaturally manufacture" starting with the supernatural act of raising up the wicked in Rev 20 for the Great White Throne judgment.

=====================================================

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

[skyblue888]

"It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing (have lost) their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misintepreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." C.O.L.415.

Now notice this:

"Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided. They can stand only in God. In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them.". G.C.592.

"Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." G.C.492.

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathisers as easy as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentatation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." D.A.759.

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." D.A.487, last parg.

"God destroys no man." C.O.L.84.

"Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

When God says that He will do this or that He will do that we need to remember that His thoughts and His ways are not our thoughts or our ways "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher then the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts then your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

Here is another example.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12 we read that to those who do not believe the truth God sends them strong delusions that they should believe a lie that they all may be condemned.

It says "And for this reason God will send them strong delusions that they should believe a lie."

In the book The Great Controversy, p.431, this verse is quoted and this is the comment that follows:

"As they reject the teachings of His word, God withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love."

This is how God sends strong delusions. He sends light but if the light is rejected, He has no other choice but to leave those who reject that light to the deceptions which they love.

Because we do not understand this language the character of God has been misunderstood nad misinterpreted.

sky

[skyblue888]

Could there be a more convincing argument that the judgments of God come directly out from Him than when God says that He will take things into His own hand to punish the wicked? I can't think of anything more convincing. But let us see what the pen of inspiration has to say about this expression.

"When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin." P.P.728.

Did you get this? God will take the case in hand to punish. What does He do? His restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances arises that will punish sin with sin!

Sin is punished with sin!

But when His restraining power is fully removed from the agencies of evil, then it is said that "the wrath of God is complete" (Rev.15:1) in the sense that there remains no more power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. See G.C.36.

This is happening even now as we speak for some individuals but it will happen on a much larger scale when probation shall close.

"When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." G.C.614.

And we all know that the language of the Bible in the book of Revelation is that of the wrath of God being poured out upon mankind one vial after another and that this work of destruction is accomplished by God's angels.

But here is a statement that shows how this language is to be understood when probation shall close:

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

How does God show that He is the living God when probation shall close? He will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing His work. He will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy.

This is how God and His angels destroy. They cease to combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. And yet in the book of Revelation they are portrayed as pouring the vials of God's wrath upon the world.

At the time of the executive judgment it will be a similar scenario except that at that time Satan and his evil angels will have to face the fury of the unsaved of all ages. God will not interfere. Only from the walls of the holy City will we be able to comprehend what that will mean for Satan and his evil angels and for all the wicked for they will turn upon one another just as they will at the time of the sixth plague.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue

Do not wait to see if others can see this before you believe. If you do, you will go on in darkness!

I disagree.

I don't believe my salvation, or yours, depends upon wheather we understand the destruction of the wicked.

I have to agree here.

There seems arguments for both views, it is not clear cut.

Mark

[Twilight]

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained....

....Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294}

It is quotes like this that give me cause to pause.

It seems very straight forward.

Mark

[Twilight]

Could there be a more convincing argument that the judgments of God come directly out from Him than when God says that He will take things into His own hand to punish the wicked? I can't think of anything more convincing. But let us see what the pen of inspiration has to say about this expression.

"When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin." P.P.728.

Did you get this? God will take the case in hand to punish. What does He do? His restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances arises that will punish sin with sin!

Sin is punished with sin!

But when His restraining power is fully removed from the agencies of evil, then it is said that "the wrath of God is complete" (Rev.15:1) in the sense that there remains no more power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. See G.C.36.

This is happening even now as we speak for some individuals but it will happen on a much larger scale when probation shall close.

"When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." G.C.614.

And we all know that the language of the Bible in the book of Revelation is that of the wrath of God being poured out upon mankind one vial after another and that this work of destruction is accomplished by God's angels.

But here is a statement that shows how this language is to be understood when probation shall close:

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

How does God show that He is the living God when probation shall close? He will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing His work. He will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy.

This is how God and His angels destroy. They cease to combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. And yet in the book of Revelation they are portrayed as pouring the vials of God's wrath upon the world.

At the time of the executive judgment it will be a similar scenario except that at that time Satan and his evil angels will have to face the fury of the unsaved of all ages. God will not interfere. Only from the walls of the holy City will we be able to comprehend what that will mean for Satan and his evil angels and for all the wicked for they will turn upon one another just as they will at the time of the sixth plague.

sky

I have no issue here Sky.

Where I think it all gets a bit muddy is when we come to the point that the sinners suffer for their sins.

The scenario you have presented does not include that.

That is where I think this truth is taken one step too far.

Maybe we could concentrate there?

Bob posted a very strong selection of quotes that I fully accept, and they support the idea that God does ultimately destroy the wicked.

Can you respond to those.

*Note to all*

This is not about proving Sky "wrong", this is about discussing this position and considering it prayerfully.

In meekness and humility.

I asked Sky to comment, because I respect him and knew he had this view.

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

Quote:

if a finger is left of the body to be consumed is it still suffering? is the finger itself still suffering?

They will suffer till they're gone. Why does thet even make a difference?

if a finger, or any part of the body is left, after the head which contains the brain and mind have been "consumed"

what makes the finger, or any other part of the body capable of feeling?

in other words does God have to raise the lost with some kind of special body that would deny His laws of nature?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

so if there is just a finger left it is suffering pain?

how about part of a leg?

Quote:

....Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294}

[/quote']

I recall when these tidbits of information were introduced in a particular Sabbath school class, the bitter feelings that emanated from a few of the members. At the time it seemed to me the response was from those who didn't really wish to hear the reality of the conditions that would exist as a result of harbored evil desires.

However after praying for many years that God would give me a softened heart that would be able to love the unlovely, I came to understand that many did not recognize they needed Divine power to get rid of the very things they felt powerless to get rid of in their own lives, even though they hated those things that controlled their actions.

keep praying my brother. you may get it right, yet.

first, i accepted at face value the early writings quote and didnt question the meaning until i came across different understandings just recently.

i have gone to the pioneer writings to see how they understood ellen whites statements since they lived at the same time and associated with her.

secondly, i have experienced that divine power to overcome and firmly believe God is able to destroy "every wicked way in me" and wants to in the here and now. i also believe He wants to teach me what true evil is.

third, to know why people believe what they do involves getting to know each one personally. it comes out, here a little, there a little, over a long, long time and even then there is so much more to learn about a person.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Could there be a more convincing argument that the judgments of God come directly out from Him than when God says that He will take things into His own hand to punish the wicked? I can't think of anything more convincing. But let us see what the pen of inspiration has to say about this expression.

"When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin." P.P.728.

Did you get this? God will take the case in hand to punish. What does He do? His restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances arises that will punish sin with sin!

Sin is punished with sin!

But when His restraining power is fully removed from the agencies of evil, then it is said that "the wrath of God is complete" (Rev.15:1) in the sense that there remains no more power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. See G.C.36.

This is happening even now as we speak for some individuals but it will happen on a much larger scale when probation shall close.

"When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." G.C.614.

And we all know that the language of the Bible in the book of Revelation is that of the wrath of God being poured out upon mankind one vial after another and that this work of destruction is accomplished by God's angels.

But here is a statement that shows how this language is to be understood when probation shall close:

"Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

How does God show that He is the living God when probation shall close? He will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing His work. He will say to the angels, No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy.

This is how God and His angels destroy. They cease to combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. And yet in the book of Revelation they are portrayed as pouring the vials of God's wrath upon the world.

At the time of the executive judgment it will be a similar scenario except that at that time Satan and his evil angels will have to face the fury of the unsaved of all ages. God will not interfere. Only from the walls of the holy City will we be able to comprehend what that will mean for Satan and his evil angels and for all the wicked for they will turn upon one another just as they will at the time of the sixth plague.

sky

I have no issue here Sky.

Where I think it all gets a bit muddy is when we come to the point that the sinners suffer for their sins.

The scenario you have presented does not include that.

That is where I think this truth is taken one step too far.

Maybe we could concentrate there?

Bob posted a very strong selection of quotes that I fully accept, and they support the idea that God does ultimately destroy the wicked.

Can you respond to those.

*Note to all*

This is not about proving Sky "wrong", this is about discussing this position and considering it prayerfully.

In meekness and humility.

I asked Sky to comment, because I respect him and knew he had this view.

Mark :-)

Where I think it all gets a bit muddy is when we come to the point that the sinners suffer for their sins.

The scenario you have presented does not include that.

_____________________________________________________

Mark, the scenario I have presented is not my personal view on the matter. I let the Bible and the SoP interpret themselves as we have been admonished to do in 1 S.M.42. The scenario that is being presented by the majority is that God's ways of destroying are exactly as man's ways or even Satan's ways. God is not like us or like Satan. God will not be the Master of hell fire to make sure that the fire will not be extinguished until He is sure everyone has paid for their sins. We may be sure that Satan and his angels and all the unsaved will suffer for their sins and for the sins they have tempted others to commit but it will not be by the direct decree of God or by the interference of God. This is what Satan wants us to believe!

Have we not been told to study her writings as we are supposed to study the Scriptures? In her writings Mrs. White uses the same language the Bible does when it comes to God's principles of dealing with sin but it is not left to us to interpret that language. We are to compare statement with statement as one passage of Scripture explains another. Mrs. White is just as consistent as the Bible is in using the same language to describe God's actions but in her writings are statements that explain that language just as a careful study of the Scriptures reveal how we are to understand its declarations. I used the example of Saul who killed himself by falling on his sword. It was a clear case of suicide and yet in the same chapter it says that God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David. 1 Chronicles 10:4,14. God did not touch Saul in the least. He simply left him to reap that which he had sown. This principle is always true when it comes to how God punishes sin. I gave other examples such as how God hardens the heart or sends strong delusions but it seems that we refuse to pay attention to what is said and thus we allow our preconceived ideas to prevail.

Mark, there is nothing "muddy" about what I have presented. The quotes Bob quoted used the language of the Bible but we must leave it to inspiration to explain that language and that is what I am in the business of doing if you haven't noticed yet!

As adventists we all believe and teach that the wicked will not burn in hell forever and ever even in the face of very strong passages of Scriptures to the contrary!!! On this topic we know better because we have compared Scripture with Scripture and let the Bible interpret itself. Should we not be more consistent and allow both the Bible and the Testimonies when describing God's actions to interpret themselves? Thus the Holy Spirit will be our Teacher. The way some of us are dealing with the language of the Bible or of the Testimonies concerning God's dealing with men and with sin is like they are saying to God, I will tell you how to teach Your message!

The Bible says clearly that "Evil shall slay the wicked," and the pen of inspiration clearly says that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to reap that which they have sown. This principle is always true and this is what is meant when God says to the wicked, I will destroy you!

It is with these principles in mind that we must read the strongest language of the Bible when it comes to the destruction of the wicked in order to arrive at the truth about God and His ways of dealing with sin and the destruction of the wicked and how they will suffer for their sins.

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

bob, i dont remember you answering on the other forum the question about the parts of the body that hadnt been consumed yet.

if a finger is left of the body to be consumed is it still suffering? is the finger itself still suffering?

When I get to be God -- I bet I will know exactly right down to the finger what hurts and where

But I think that will take all of eternity -- and then some. So for now I just gotta believe what it says not knowing exactly how it works down to the pinky.

Have a question for you -- did you catch that part about "worm does not die" and what she said it meant??

[skyblue888]

Excellent info Teresaq! Thank you so much for that! Very enlightening. It fits perfectly with how the pen of inspiration explains the language of the Bible as far as the punishment of the wicked is concerned.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

When I get to be God -- I bet I will know exactly right down to the finger what hurts and where

But I think that will take all of eternity -- and then some. So for now I just gotta believe what it says not knowing exactly how it works down to the pinky.

Have a question for you -- did you catch that part about "worm does not die" and what she said it meant??

the papacy wants its beliefs accepted without question.

Quote:

Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering was there. Said the angel, The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon. {1SG 217.1}

from a contemporary of ellen white, actually it is from the daniel and revelation by uriah smith which ellen white urged should be made available to all.

Quote:

URS DNR 20 THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION page 0745 paragraph 2 The Execution of the Sentence. - The wicked are to be punished according to their works.

The Scriptures declare that they shall be rewarded according to their deeds. There are, then, to be degrees in the punishment of the wicked; and it may be asked how this can be harmonized with the view

that death is the punishment for sin, and comes upon all alike.

Let us ask believers in eternal misery how they will maintain degrees in their system. They tell us the intensity of the pain endured will be in each case proportioned to the guilt of the sufferer.

But how can this be? Are not the flames of hell equally severe in all parts? and will they not equally affect all the immaterial souls cast therein?

But God can interpose, it is answered, to produce the effect desired.

Very well then, we reply, cannot he also interpose, if necessary, and graduate the pain which will attend the infliction of death upon the sinner as the climax of his penalty?

So, then, our view is equal with the common one in this respect, while it possesses great advantages over it in another; for while that has to find its degrees of punishment in intensity of pain alone, the duration in all cases being the same, this may not only have degrees in pain, but in duration also; inasmuch as some may perish in a short space of time, and the weary sufferings of others be long drawn out. But yet we apprehend that the bodily suffering will be but an unnoticed trifle compared with

the mental agony,

that keen anguish which will rack their souls as they get a view of their incomparable loss,

each according to his capacity of appreciation.

The youth who had but little more than reached the years of accountability, being less able to comprehend his situation and his loss, will of course feel it less;

to him of older years, more capacity,

and consequently a deeper experience in sin, the burden of his fate will be proportionately greater;

while the man of giant intellect and almost boundless comprehension, - who hence possessed greater influence for evil, and so was the more guilty for devoting his powers to the service of that evil, - being able to understand his situation fully, comprehend his fate, and realize his loss, will feel it most keenly of all.

Into his soul the iron will indeed enter most intolerably deep. And thus, by an established law of mind, the sufferings of each may be most accurately adjusted to the magnitude of his guilt.

URS DNR 20 THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION page 0746 paragraph 1 That the degree of suffering which each one is to endure is taken into the account as a part of the punishment of his crimes, is evident from Rom.2:6-10. Paul, here speaking of the future "judgment of God," says:-

URS DNR 20 THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION page 0746 paragraph 2 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality [he will render'], eternal life; but unto them that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness [he will render], indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile."

Interesting quote from US. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have no issue here Sky.

Where I think it all gets a bit muddy is when we come to the point that the sinners suffer for their sins.

The scenario you have presented does not include that.

That is where I think this truth is taken one step too far.

Maybe we could concentrate there?

Bob posted a very strong selection of quotes that I fully accept, and they support the idea that God does ultimately destroy the wicked.

Can you respond to those.

*Note to all*

This is not about proving Sky "wrong", this is about discussing this position and considering it prayerfully.

In meekness and humility.

I asked Sky to comment, because I respect him and knew he had this view.

Mark :-) [/quote']

Where I think it all gets a bit muddy is when we come to the point that the sinners suffer for their sins.

The scenario you have presented does not include that.

_____________________________________________________

Mark, the scenario I have presented is not my personal view on the matter. I let the Bible and the SoP interpret themselves as we have been admonished to do in 1 S.M.42. The scenario that is being presented by the majority is that God's ways of destroying are exactly as man's ways or even Satan's ways. God is not like us or like Satan. God will not be the Master of hell fire to make sure that the fire will not be extinguished until He is sure everyone has paid for their sins. We may be sure that Satan and his angels and all the unsaved will suffer for their sins and for the sins they have tempted others to commit but it will not be by the direct decree of God or by the interference of God. This is what Satan wants us to believe!

Have we not been told to study her writings as we are supposed to study the Scriptures? In her writings Mrs. White uses the same language the Bible does when it comes to God's principles of dealing with sin but it is not left to us to interpret that language. We are to compare statement with statement as one passage of Scripture explains another. Mrs. White is just as consistent as the Bible is in using the same language to describe God's actions but in her writings are statements that explain that language just as a careful study of the Scriptures reveal how we are to understand its declarations. I used the example of Saul who killed himself by falling on his sword. It was a clear case of suicide and yet in the same chapter it says that God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David. 1 Chronicles 10:4,14. God did not touch Saul in the least. He simply left him to reap that which he had sown. This principle is always true when it comes to how God punishes sin. I gave other examples such as how God hardens the heart or sends strong delusions but it seems that we refuse to pay attention to what is said and thus we allow our preconceived ideas to prevail.

Mark, there is nothing "muddy" about what I have presented. The quotes Bob quoted used the language of the Bible but we must leave it to inspiration to explain that language and that is what I am in the business of doing if you haven't noticed yet!

As adventists we all believe and teach that the wicked will not burn in hell forever and ever even in the face of very strong passages of Scriptures to the contrary!!! On this topic we know better because we have compared Scripture with Scripture and let the Bible interpret itself. Should we not be more consistent and allow both the Bible and the Testimonies when describing God's actions to interpret themselves? Thus the Holy Spirit will be our Teacher. The way some of us are dealing with the language of the Bible or of the Testimonies concerning God's dealing with men and with sin is like they are saying to God, I will tell you how to teach Your message!

The Bible says clearly that "Evil shall slay the wicked," and the pen of inspiration clearly says that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but that He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to reap that which they have sown. This principle is always true and this is what is meant when God says to the wicked, I will destroy you!

It is with these principles in mind that we must read the strongest language of the Bible when it comes to the destruction of the wicked in order to arrive at the truth about God and His ways of dealing with sin and the destruction of the wicked and how they will suffer for their sins.

sky

You are asking me to trust your understanding Sky, I cannot do that.

I have to see the reasoning line by line for myself, that is the correct process.

This bears further thought. :-)

To summarise:

It is possible that when the Bible talks about God destroying the wicked that these elements are involved:

1. Gods withdrawal of grace brings man a mental and spiritual torture as a type of hell fire.

2. These men are then destroyed after turning their own weapons upon themselves.

3. Satan is destroyed by these men.

Now this seems to be the main thrust being presented here, would you agree?

Mark

[Guest]

"Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388. True, he is the destroyer now, but in the end he will become the destroyed

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21. This has been true all down through the ages, but in the end God will pour out his judgment without mixture.

At the time of the executive judgment it will be a similar scenario except that at that time Satan and his evil angels will have to face the fury of the unsaved of all ages.

What can humans do to hurt Satan and his fallen angels? Absolutely nothing. They can have all the fury in the world, but that is nothing against celestial beings.

The wicked people and Satan are not going to kill themselves and burn down the solar system in the process. They just don't have that kind of power.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pe 3:10

[Guest]

I don't believe the language of the Bible is Satanic. You say that is what Satan wants us to believe, and I do believe what it says.

[Guest]

Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his error. 2 Samuel 6:6, 7

The fate of Uzzah was a divine judgment upon the violation of a most explicit command. Through Moses the Lord had given special instruction concerning the transportation of the ark. None but the priests, the descendants of Aaron, were to touch it, or even to look upon it uncovered. . . . {CC 176.2}

Again, consider the judgment that fell upon Uzzah. As in David's reign the ark was being carried to Jerusalem, Uzzah put forth his hand to keep it steady. For presuming to touch the symbol of God's presence, he was smitten with instant death. {MH 436.1}