Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[teresaq]

And then Fire comes down from heaven and burns them up.

[Lutz13]

is it possible that those before the flood could develop, or had already developed a weapon we could never conceive of in our degenerage state?

I have often wondered that as well. They were highly advanced and had many years to study with incredible minds.

[Lutz13]

I must go to sleep, but wondered if you knew of the following:

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."(1 Chronicles 21:1)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Teresaq

is it possible that those before the flood could develop, or had already developed a weapon we could never conceive of in our degenerage state?

I have often wondered that as well. They were highly advanced and had many years to study with incredible minds.

Good point Teresaq.

Lutz, I have not only wondered about that but read about it from the pen of inspiration. I will share a statement with you that you guys may have read before, just to refresh our minds.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Men before the flood lived many hundreds of years, and when one hundred years old they were considered but youths. Those long-lived men had sound minds in sound bodies. Their mental and physical strength was so great that the present feeble generation can bear no comparison to them. Those ancients had nearly one thousand years in which to acquire knowledge. They came upon the stage of action from the ages of sixty to one hundred years, about the time those who now live the longest have acted their part in their little short life time, and have passed off the stage. Those who are deceived, and flattered on the delusion that the present is an age of real progress, and that the human race has been in ages past progressing in true knowledge, are under the influence of the father of lies, whose work has ever been to turn the truth into a lie." 4 SG 154-156.

"At the first resurrection all come forth in immortal bloom, but at the second, the marks of the curse are visible upon all. All come up as they went down into their graves. Those who lived before the Flood come forth with their giant-like stature, more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and well proportioned. The generations after the Flood were less in stature." 3 SG 84.

In the next post I will quote a statement which speaks of their inventions and achievements before the Flood.

sky

[skyblue888]

I must go to sleep, but wondered if you knew of the following:

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."(1 Chronicles 21:1)

Lutz, did you read my mind or something???

I was just going to share this. We must have met somewhere before. hehe

These two verses teach that Satan is identified as "the anger of the Lord, " or "the wrath of God."

Very odd to say the very least of it but in harmony with the fact that he is the destroyer and not God.

sky

do you work the night shift?

[skyblue888]

"There perished in the Flood greater inventions of art and human skill than the world knows of today. The arts destroyed were more than the boasted arts of today." Letter 65, 1898.

"How did man gain his knowledge of how to devise?--From the Lord, by studying the formation and habits of different animals. Every animal is a lesson book, and from the use they make of their bodies and the weapons provided them, men have learned to make apparatus for every kind of work. If men could only know how many arts have been lost to our world, they would not talk to fluently of the dark ages. Could they have seen how God once worked t hrough His human subjects, they would speak with less confidence of the arts of the antediluvian world. More was lost in the Flood, in many ways, than men today know. Looking upon the world, God saw that the intellect He had given man was perverted, that the imagination of his heart was evil and that continually. God had given them valuable ideas, that they might carry out His plan. But the Lord saw that those whom He designed should possess wisdom, tact, and judgment, were using every quality of the mind to glorify self."

"In the days of Noah the overwhelming majority was opposed to the truth, and enamored with a tissue of falsehoods. The land was filled with violence. War, crime, murder, was the order of the day. Just so will it be before Christ's second coming. They worshipped selfish indulgence,--eating, drinking, merry-making,--and resorted to acts of violence and crime if their desires and passions were interfered with." MS 24, 1891.

sky

So, yes, after the thousand years, inspired and urged on by Satan and his angels who possessed even more wisdom, they will built weapons of desctruction that we cannot even imagine and it is by these very weapons that they will be brought into the Pit when the unsaved of all ages, especially those antediluvians turn upon them with the fury of demons. These were the weapons that they were planning to use to take the Holy City.

[teresaq]

It is the principle I am discussing that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Why can't you accept that? Some day we will know how he died but for now the Lord asks us to accept the principle that neither He nor His angels are the executioners of the sentence against transgression.

didnt you come to this "principle" through study, time, and prayer?

and wouldnt it make sense that others need time to study, think, and pray, before it might make sense to them also?

[Woody]

Some have no tolerance for intellectual thought that is different from their's.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It is the principle I am discussing that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Why can't you accept that? Some day we will know how he died but for now the Lord asks us to accept the principle that neither He nor His angels are the executioners of the sentence against transgression.

didnt you come to this "principle" through study, time, and prayer?

and wouldnt it make sense that others need time to study, think, and pray, before it might make sense to them also?

No Tereasq. I accepted it the moment it was presented to me because it was clear and simple. And because I accepted it right away it was easy for me thereafter to receive more light on the subject. Why are you giving Red what he wants now? he has been sitting on the fence watching like a hawk to see how things are going and now you have just given him a reason to make me look like i have no tolerance. A lot of evidence has been presented here from you and Lutz and myself. Evidence that is so clear that a child can understand it.

So please don't accuse me of intolerance.

sky

[Woody]

I rest my case.

[skyblue888]

In 1888 the light was simple and clear just as the light that is being presented in this thread is clear and simple. There was no need for the people to wait and see or to spend long hours or days or months or years to debate over it. They were to accept the light or to reject it. They rejected it. Prejudices and opinions stood in the way of truth presented in clear, distinct lines as the pen of inspiration has clearly told us. See T.M.93.

This is what I see happening here all over again for clear passages of Scriptures and clear statements from the pen of inspiration have been presented which cannot be controverted and which demand that they be received, believed, and acted upon but instead of doing that many are looking for anything they can find to bring objection to the light.

"The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light. Yet many have listened to the truth spoken in demonstration of the Spirit, and they have not only refused to accept the message, but they have hated the light. These men are parties to the ruin of souls. They have interposed themselves between the heaven-sent light and the people." T.M.91.

All this took place in a very short time at the Minneapolis meeting in 1888.

sky

[skyblue888]

I rest my case.

What case? the case of someone who is just waiting to pounce on someone as soon as an opportunity arises?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It dosn't explain Uzza either.

Or Ananias and Sapphira. Questions...Questions...and more questions...Richard, one thing is for sure. We will have 1000 years to get them answered!

Sorry Lutz but no we don't have a thousand years to receive, believe, and act upon the truths that God is revealing to us right now. True we will have a thousand years to study and all eternity after that. But we cannot wait for the thousand years to study present truth. The truths for this time we must not put off until the 1,000 years. You are doing an excellent job right now in helping us understand the principles of God's dealing with sin and which are ever the same as we are told in G.C.343, first parg.

Let us not forget that tradidion and and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin. See G.C.492, firt parg.

The time is come for the light of His glory to shine so that His ways of doing things may be understood that His character may be vindicated, that the people may see that He is indeed infinitely good and holy and righteous and that there is no unrighteousness in Him.

sky

[teresaq]

I must go to sleep, but wondered if you knew of the following:

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."(1 Chronicles 21:1)

are you addressing me, someone else, or in general?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

didnt you come to this "principle" through study' date=' time, and prayer?

and wouldnt it make sense that others need time to study, think, and pray, before it might make sense to them also? [/quote']

No Tereasq. I accepted it the moment it was presented to me because it was clear and simple. And because I accepted it right away it was easy for me thereafter to receive more light on the subject. Why are you giving Red what he wants now? he has been sitting on the fence watching like a hawk to see how things are going and now you have just given him a reason to make me look like i have no tolerance. A lot of evidence has been presented here from you and Lutz and myself. Evidence that is so clear that a child can understand it.

So please don't accuse me of intolerance.

sky

I did not understand everything at first but right away I accepted the principles of God's dealing with sin as they are revealed in the Testimonies. The first principle that I accepted was that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

I knew that no matter what the language of the Bible was, that had always to be true. Because it is the truth, because God says so. If we believe the prophet we shall prosper. If we don't we will never come to an understanding of this truth. This is the first principle and it is always true and we must not let anyone or even the language of the Bible interfere with it. As we accept this simple truth, we are prepared to receive more light. The Lord will give understanding. "Consider what I say and may the Lord give you understanding in all things." 2 Tim.2:7.

The second principle is that "He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." This is always true. It sure turned out to be true in the case of king Saul. King Saul kept resisting light and at the end of the day the Lord was forced to abandon him. Saul would have been killed by Satan using the Philistines that day on the battle field but instead Saul killed himself. He was left with no power to control the evil passions of the soul and with no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. This is how God killed him! "God killed Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chronicles 10:4,14.

The third principle is that God punishes sin with sin as Lutz has shown us using the case of David and Absalom from P.P.739 and 728.

So what the Bible calls "the anger of the Lord" or "the wrath of God" is simply God withdrawing His restraining power from the agencies of evil and there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul and no more protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. See G.C.36.

The whole world will be destroyed when God will say to His angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy... I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." R&H, Vol.4, 335.

Concerning the flood, we read, "Noah was shut in, and the rejecters of His mercy were shut out." P.P.98.

By comparing this statement with the statement taken from G.C.36 the truth is brought to us in clear, distinct lines that at the time of the flood the Lord withdrew His protection from the rejecters of His mercy and they were left to the control of the leader they had chosen just as the Jews were at the time of the desctruction of Jerusalem and just as the whole world will be when probation shall close.

And after the 1,000 years the Lord will raise the unsaved of all ages to face the executive judgment. Satan and all his angels will be there. In panoramic view all will see the plan of salvation from the time Lucifer rebelled in Heaven to the time when he deceived Adam and Eve and to the time when he inspired the leaders of the Jews to crucify Jesus. All will see how Satan was able to abort the finishing of the work in the days of the Apostles. All will see the falling away that resulted in the appearance of the "man of sin" who opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. All will see the rule of Satan through this man of sin for almost 13 centuries when darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people.

All will see that the man of sin condemned to death those whom God was using to bring a great reformation. Then they will see how the light was extinguished again and how it was brought back again at the time of the Advent Movement in 1844 and how those who received so much light then fell into the Loadicean condition until they became a people who claimed to know and possess everything and yet God declared them to be wretched and poor and miserable and blind and naked and yet they did not know it. Then they will see how the Lord in 1888 sent a most precious message inviting them to receive pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit by inviting them to receive the righteousness of Christ by appropriating His merits to themselves to re-establish them as His true people in the earth so that they could be the light of the world and be a blessing to all the world but how the message was resisted and how they hated and despised both the messengers and the light. They will see how in 1901 the Lord sent a warning to the effect that we would have to remain in this world many more years because of our unbelief and insubordination. See Evangelism, 696.

Then they will see the compromises made by His professed people in order to gain the friendship of the popular churches and as a result a spirit of ecumenism has been permeating the entire church, uniting with the worldly churches by forgetting our differences and uniting with them on whatever all can agree on no matter how important it might be from a Bible standpoint. See G.C.444.

Then they will see how the Lord caused His light to shine upon His people one more time just as predicted in the parable of Matt.22 and how this light was again resisted, and not only resisted, but the bearers of that last message of mercy were character assassinated and how probation closed on that church and how the bearers of the message had no other choice but to go to the world with their message and how it swell into the loud cry and how only a few remained at the end of the loud cry strengthened to face the great final test and to pass through the time of Jacob's trouble when the wicked shall attempt to execute the death decree upon them to rid them from the earth and how God delivered them at the time of the fifth plague when they heard the voice of God and how the wicked fell at their feet confessing that God had indeed loved them and they will see how the wicked will turn upon the false shepherds blaming them for being eternally lost and there will be strife and bloodshed everywhere followed by the great earthquake which will prepare the way for Jesus to appear in the clouds of Heaven to take His people home with Him.

And now all the unsaved of all the ages see that they are forever lost and they all agree to put the blame upon Satan and his angels and they turn upon them with the fury of demons. See Ezekiel 28:6-10 and G.C.672. The very weapons that were to be used to take over the Holy City are now employed to destroy Satan and his evil angels and God will not interfere. They will be brought down to the Pit to die in the midst of the "seas" and they will be no more. Then God will purify the earth and made a new earth and He shall dwell with man and His throne will be there.

sky

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Or Ananias and Sapphira. Questions...Questions...and more questions...Richard' date=' one thing is for sure. We will have 1000 years to get them answered! [/quote']

Sorry Lutz but no we don't have a thousand years to receive, believe, and act upon the truths that God is revealing to us right now. True we will have a thousand years to study and all eternity after that. But we cannot wait for the thousand years to study present truth. The truths for this time we must not put off until the 1,000 years. You are doing an excellent job right now in helping us understand the principles of God's dealing with sin and which are ever the same as we are told in G.C.343, first parg.

Let us not forget that tradidion and and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin. See G.C.492, firt parg.

The time is come for the light of His glory to shine so that His ways of doing things may be understood that His character may be vindicated, that the people may see that He is indeed infinitely good and holy and righteous and that there is no unrighteousness in Him.

sky

The thousand years is for a reason. It means that in Heaven we will have much to learn and the thousand years is needed or it wouldn't be given to us.

[Woody]

Therefore ... we do need to have and to display tolerance for those who see scripture differently than we. Who knows ... we just may be wrong. Imagine. No ... surely that can't be. Praise God ... Jesus loves us just the same.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

didnt you come to this "principle" through study' date=' time, and prayer?

and wouldnt it make sense that others need time to study, think, and pray, before it might make sense to them also?

No Tereasq. I accepted it the moment it was presented to me because it was clear and simple. ..

[/quote']so are you saying that others should see just as quickly as you did? arent minds different? i believe some here have honest reservations and that needs to be respected.

conviction comes from the Holy Spirit not our understanding nor our words.

Quote:

I may not view all things as you do, but I do not think it would be my place or duty to try to make you see as I see and feel as I feel. Wherein I have done this, I am sorry. {20MR 23.1}

Quote:

Though you may not see as rapid improvement as you desire, be not discouraged, but patiently and perseveringly continue your work. {RH, May 26, 1910 par. 1}

Quote:

God requires His messengers to exercise caution and self-control. In presenting truth, let it not taste so strongly of self that it is unpalatable. Closely criticize self, and exercise true discernment in distinguishing [between] the honor of God and the honor of self. Many are deceived here.

Under the pretense of vindicating truth, they are manifesting their own traits of character, and displaying a spirit of accusation and condemnation. {19MR 206.2}

He who has the truth can afford to be calm, dignified, and just. It is true that some who advocate the truth for this time put on a coat of mail, and deal out hard thrusts that wound and bruise the soul. Such an advocate makes manifest the fact that he feels bitterly against anyone who does not see as he sees and feel as he feels. He fancies he is maintaining principles; but he does not cause the one who is in error to discern his error or to become an advocate of truth. By his manner, by his temper, by his overbearing words, he puts it out of his power to convince the opposers of truth. His manner was so offensive and his answer was so disgusting, that he closed up the ears of his hearers to the truth. {19MR 206.3}

[Woody]

Thank you Teresaq. How wonderful and how very true. This was new to me. I was not aware our prophet had spoken so clearly on the topic. Praise God.

[skyblue888]

Oh teresaq, you simply do not realize what you are doing right now giving sympathy again to those who waver or who reject light and are doing all in their God-given power to prevent others from receiving it.

May God have mercy.

I do not accept your accusations.

In 1888 Jones and Waggoner were accused of everything they could be accused of under the sun only because they did not waver and used straight language. Then Mrs. White defended them by saying it was such men that were needed at this time to give a clear sound of trumpet. Too many are undecided and cannot accept a simple Thus saith the Lord.

Go on Teresa, accuse me of all you want but be sure you are not using this opportutnity to get even with me for rebuking you in the past.

sky

[Woody]

“Mary had been looked upon as a great sinner, but Christ knew the circumstances that had shaped her life. He might have extinguished every spark of hope in her soul, but He did not. It was He who had lifted her from despair and ruin. Seven times she had heard His rebuke of the demons that controlled her heart and mind. She had heard His strong cries to the Father in her behalf. She knew how offensive is sin to His unsullied purity, and in His strength she had overcome."

“When to human eyes her case appeared hopeless, Christ saw in Mary capabilities for good. He saw the better traits of her character. The plan of redemption has invested humanity with great possibilities, and in Mary these possibilities were to be realized. Through His grace she became a partaker of the divine nature. The one who had fallen, and whose mind had been a habitation of demons, was brought very near to the Saviour in fellowship and ministry."

“Jesus knows the circumstances of every soul. You may say, I am sinful, very sinful. You may be; but the worse you are, the more you need Jesus. He turns no weeping, contrite one away. He does not tell to any all that He might reveal, but He bids every trembling soul take courage. Freely will He pardon all who come to Him for forgiveness and restoration.”

DA 567

[Woody]

"Let us not bring a reproach upon the Christian religion by manifesting jealousy and intolerance toward others. No one has ever been reclaimed from a wrong position by censure or reproach; but many have thus been driven away from God, with their hearts steeled against conviction. A tender spirit, a gentle, winning deportment, may save the erring, and hide a multitude of sins. We are required of God to exercise that charity that suffereth long and is kind." (Signs of the Times, 1st December 1886)

[Woody]

Oh teresaq, you simply do not realize what you are doing right now giving sympathy again to those who waver or who reject light and are doing all in their God-given power to prevent others from receiving it.

May God have mercy.

I do not accept your accusations.

In 1888 Jones and Waggoner were accused of everything they could be accused of under the sun only because they did not waver and used straight language. Then Mrs. White defended them by saying it was such men that were needed at this time to give a clear sound of trumpet. Too many are undecided and cannot accept a simple Thus saith the Lord.

Go on Teresa, accuse me of all you want but be sure you are not using this opportutnity to get even with me for rebuking you in the past.

sky

Rebuking is not appropriate on these forums. We are here to share our faith, beliefs, understandings and ideas.

[teresaq]

I do not accept your accusations.

i am not accusing anyone of anything.

i am merely pointing out what the messenger of the Lord says.

it is then up to us to humble ourselves before the Lord, or reject the light He gives us to prepare us for heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:8Charity never faileth:

but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;

whether there be tongues, they shall cease;

whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Micah 6:8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but ... to walk humbly with thy God?