Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

OK - I'll bite -- what text says "Satan is killed by the hands of men"??

Bob

"Will you still say before him who slays you' date=' 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,' says the Lord God."(Ezekiel 28:9-10)

How would you interpret that text? I could be wrong, but it shows that someone other than God killing Satan. [/quote']

The King of Tyrus in verse 28 is clearly representative of Satan.

But this section comes from the judgement pronounced on the "Prince of Tyrus", not the "King of Tyrus".

Verse 2 talks about the prince, the King is not mentioned until verse 28.

We also have to be cautious because the Prince is described as being killed in two different ways.

Verse 8 and verse 10.

thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.

Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Two points:

1. It is not clear that the prince and the King are the same person.

2. Two different examples of how the prince will die is given.

The "prince" could well refer to another figure, a representative of the King, not necessarily the King himself.

To draw from this text that Satan is killed by man is unwise, because of these two points that cloud this position.

Mark

[Guest]

I agree.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Hmmm. I thought teresaq had more to say than this.

Maybe not Redwood.

pk

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

"Will you still say before him who slays you' date=' 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,' says the Lord God."(Ezekiel 28:9-10)

How would you interpret that text? I could be wrong, but it shows that someone other than God killing Satan. [/quote']

The King of Tyrus in verse 28 is clearly representative of Satan.

But this section comes from the judgement pronounced on the "Prince of Tyrus", not the "King of Tyrus".

Verse 2 talks about the prince, the King is not mentioned until verse 28.

We also have to be cautious because the Prince is described as being killed in two different ways.

Verse 8 and verse 10.

thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.

Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Two points:

1. It is not clear that the prince and the King are the same person.

2. Two different examples of how the prince will die is given.

The "prince" could well refer to another figure, a representative of the King, not necessarily the King himself.

To draw from this text that Satan is killed by man is unwise, because of these two points that cloud this position.

Mark

Would you consider SOP concerning this?

[Guest]

Who me? Or Mark?

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

[Lutz13]

Actually, now that I think about it. I would rather bow out of this discussion. I wish to stay neutral on this topic because I am a finite being and I am not able to understand the infinite. There is enough evidence on both sides that makes it hard to come to a final decision.

[Guest]

It's not something I want to argue about. I got enough of that the other day.

[Twilight]

Actually, now that I think about it. I would rather bow out of this discussion. I wish to stay neutral on this topic because I am a finite being and I am not able to understand the infinite. There is enough evidence on both sides that makes it hard to come to a final decision.

God bless you Lutz :-)

[Twilight]

Who me? Or Mark?

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

You see, this statement keeps coming back.

Here is a clear statement here that they are punished specifically and not generally.

Mark

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

good logic. i have heard the "distinction" before but had no idea why it had been made, or attempted, i should say.

so we are saying there is a difference between killing someone and murdering them?

would God back up our distinction?

Imagine this.

Gunman walks into a school and starts shooting children.

Policeman shoots him.

Has he murdered?

Mark

for sure he killed him, as in the man is dead whether we call it kill or murder. can we argue with that?

[teresaq]

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:9

How would you interpret that text?

this text, in its condensed form, leaves out where Christ rises above the city, convicts the lost of each and every sin they have committed, does it not?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

There are more texts that say fire from God.

So then does that mean Ezekiel was not inspired?

if i may, doesnt that mean we are to put all the texts together with prayer and waiting on the Lord and see what the picture is?

but maybe we should settle that we are all in agreement that fire rains from "God" and burns up the lost and this planet and its atmosphere.

what we dont know is if the lost are already dead or not.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It was kind of an empty thought.

Rarely is teresaq empty. I think this empty quote is a false accusation.

"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person"

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

So then does that mean Ezekiel was not inspired?

if i may' date=' doesnt that mean we are to put all the texts together with prayer and waiting on the Lord and see what the picture is?

but maybe we should settle that we are all in agreement that fire rains from "God" and burns up the lost and this planet and its atmosphere.

what we dont know is if the lost are already dead or not. [/quote']

But the quote that Richard quoted from EW just above, would indicate that they are very much alive when burnt.

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

What has happened to this thread?

[LifeHiscost]

But CHrist also picked up a whip to drive out money changers to protest the abuse of the temple as God's house...

Mercy is in balance with justice.

[Guest]

Hey Life.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

if i may' date=' doesnt that mean we are to put all the texts together with prayer and waiting on the Lord and see what the picture is?

but maybe we should settle that we are all in agreement that fire rains from "God" and burns up the lost and this planet and its atmosphere.

what we dont know is if the lost are already dead or not. [/quote']

But the quote that Richard quoted from EW just above, would indicate that they are very much alive when burnt.

Mark :-)

ezekiel 28:18therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee.

and this "contradicts" both revelation and ellen white.

not to mention the "universal strife" of...

Quote:

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. {4SP 487.1}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

but lets not forget that they are not standing there with empty hands. remember

Quote:

They construct weapons of war; for there are many skillful men in that vast army. ..

and this vast army surround it and place themselves in battle array.

They have prepared all kinds of implements of war, expecting to have a fierce conflict. They arrange themselves around the City. ... {1SG 216.1}

what kinds of weapons do they have with them?

and when they turn on satan and company is it with their bare hands, or with those weapons?

when we bombed hiroshima with the atomic bomb how long did it take some to die?

what about a nuclear war?

Quote:

Isaiah 34: 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. ...{GC 672.2}

first it says He (God) destroyed them, then it says He (God) gave them to the slaughter.

the slaughter of their own weapons?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Rarely is teresaq empty. I think this empty quote is a false accusation.

"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes' date=' is ever ready to believe the best of every person"

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

Blessings! [/quote']

Should I believe the best in teresaq or her accusor.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I was under the impression you were talking about the taking of life. Murder is with malice. When God takes life it is not murder. In fact He is merciful when removing a life that has nothing to look forward to other than the misery caused by living outside the parameters of God's injunctions....

the law states, thou shalt not kill. the "law is a transcript of Gods character."

so does God kill?

true Yes, without malice and for the protection of the loyal. LHC

i wont list each commandment so as not to make this post too long.

remember the sabbath day.....

does God ever break this commandment? No, as understood by Jesus.LHC

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

has God ever committed adultery? No, but all of His children haveLHC

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10

NKJV

Thou shalt not steal.

has God ever stolen? Ditto aboveLHC

so for me, to answer the question of whether or not God kills involves taking multiple perspectives into consideration.

[LifeHiscost]

we so often forget there is an enemy sitting right beside us whispering in our ear interpreting the word we read.

Is it possible for God to instruct us from His word without interference from a stronger power that would make it impossible to understand correctly, especially if we had asked the Holy Spirit for wisdom as we have been instructed?

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5 NIV

"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself."John 7:17 NASB

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."Hebrews 11:6 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Who instituted the civil laws in Israel? Those laws were to protect the innocent, weren't they?

[LifeHiscost]

Gods justice is all about taking care of the poor and needy.

Which means removing the oppressors, permanently when it has been at last shown that they will continue to refuse to give up their oppressive ways.

"And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to give light to it, for the splendor and radiance (glory) of God illuminate it, and the Lamb is its lamp.

The nations shall walk by its light and the rulers and leaders of the earth shall bring into it their glory.

And its gates shall never be closed by day, and there shall be no night there.

They shall bring the glory (the splendor and majesty) and the honor of the nations into it.

But nothing that defiles or profanes or is unwashed shall ever enter it, nor anyone who commits abominations (unclean, detestable, morally repugnant things) or practices falsehood, but only those whose names are recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life."Revelation 21:23-27 AMP

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

our justice (system) is all about getting even, punitive and controlling.

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"1 Timothy 1:8-10 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

sky

*the most significant difference lay in the fact that while Moses allowed the rod to pass out of his hands and control, Christ did not lose either His grip or His control over the scourge.

So what your saying is that what Christ did at the time He took up the scourge was to convey a possibility if they, the money changers, didn't discontinue their fraudulent activity, they could look forward to heavier penalties, not necessarily in keeping with the gentleness normally given by Him.

Sounds very much like the God revealed in the Old Testament.

""For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands." Deuteronomy 31:29 NASB