Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[LifeHiscost]

The commandment can actually be translated "thou shall not murder".

Otherwise God commanded the Israelites to throw their own salvation away, but sinning when carrying out His will.

Mark

Understood that way is clearly contradictory and inconsistent with the character of God. Therefor it is my opinion that "Thou shalt not kill" can only be seen as a promise to those who place themselves in the center of Christ's will,

and "Thou shalt not murder" reveals the malice that is enjoined

for all while on this earth before glorification or translation

at Christ's return.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

We see murder as being far worse than someone stealing from a store. God doesn't.

"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."Luke 12:45-48 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Hopefully all agree that "man" did not pull the wrong lever and cause a world wide flood killing all humans on the planet.

And I also think we all agree that "man" does not resurrect the wicked at the end of the 1000 years and then cast them all into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:9

How would you interpret that text?

And what about these.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."Revelation 20:10 NASB

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

There are texts that say you will burn forever an ever, but we know that's not the case.

The story of Jonah also says he was in the belly of the fish forever. We know he only spent three days in the belly of the fish.

We also know the fires that fell on Sodom and Gomorrah are described as burning forever.

Forever seems to be a term describing the time something lasts rather than describing something that goes on without end, unless

the item it is affecting goes on without end.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

The "prince" could well refer to another figure, a representative of the King, not necessarily the King himself.

To draw from this text that Satan is killed by man is unwise, because of these two points that cloud this position.

Mark

Seems a bit of wisdom.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

I am a finite being and I am not able to understand the infinite. There is enough evidence on both sides that makes it hard to come to a final decision.

That is a humble choice but seems not to take into consideration

that is why Jesus became flesh, that the infinite might be understood by the finite.

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."John 16:13 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Should I believe the best in teresaq or her accusor.

I suppose that would need a definite knowledge there is an accusation.

"All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the spirits (the thoughts and intents of the heart)."Proverbs 16:2 AMP parenthesis theirs LHC

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The commandment can actually be translated "thou shall not murder".

Otherwise God commanded the Israelites to throw their own salvation away, but sinning when carrying out His will.

Mark

Understood that way is clearly contradictory and inconsistent with the character of God. Therefor it is my opinion that "Thou shalt not kill" can only be seen as a promise to those who place themselves in the center of Christ's will,

and "Thou shalt not murder" reveals the malice that is enjoined

for all while on this earth before glorification or translation

at Christ's return.

Blessings!

Agreed. :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

if i may' date=' doesnt that mean we are to put all the texts together with prayer and waiting on the Lord and see what the picture is?

but maybe we should settle that we are all in agreement that fire rains from "God" and burns up the lost and this planet and its atmosphere.

what we dont know is if the lost are already dead or not. [/quote']

But the quote that Richard quoted from EW just above, would indicate that they are very much alive when burnt.

Mark :-)

ezekiel 28:18therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee.

and this "contradicts" both revelation and ellen white.

not to mention the "universal strife" of...

Quote:

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. {4SP 487.1}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

but lets not forget that they are not standing there with empty hands. remember

Quote:

They construct weapons of war; for there are many skillful men in that vast army. ..

and this vast army surround it and place themselves in battle array.

They have prepared all kinds of implements of war, expecting to have a fierce conflict. They arrange themselves around the City. ... {1SG 216.1}

what kinds of weapons do they have with them?

and when they turn on satan and company is it with their bare hands, or with those weapons?

when we bombed hiroshima with the atomic bomb how long did it take some to die?

what about a nuclear war?

Quote:

Isaiah 34: 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. ...{GC 672.2}

first it says He (God) destroyed them, then it says He (God) gave them to the slaughter.

the slaughter of their own weapons?

Looks like this post has gone unnoticed.

Mark, how come you have nothing to say about it. Please read it again and again.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

ezekiel 28:18therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee.

and this "contradicts" both revelation and ellen white.

not to mention the "universal strife" of...

Quote:

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. {4SP 487.1}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

but lets not forget that they are not standing there with empty hands. remember

Quote:

They construct weapons of war; for there are many skillful men in that vast army. ..

and this vast army surround it and place themselves in battle array.

They have prepared all kinds of implements of war, expecting to have a fierce conflict. They arrange themselves around the City. ... {1SG 216.1}

what kinds of weapons do they have with them?

and when they turn on satan and company is it with their bare hands, or with those weapons?

when we bombed hiroshima with the atomic bomb how long did it take some to die?

what about a nuclear war?

Quote:

Isaiah 34: 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. ...{GC 672.2}

first it says He (God) destroyed them, then it says He (God) gave them to the slaughter.

the slaughter of their own weapons?

Looks like this post has gone unnoticed.

Mark, how come you have nothing to say about it. Please read it again and again.

sky

Sorry Sky, which point did you want me to look at?

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Not a point in particular, Mark, but the whole! Because in that post teresa put many pieces of the puzzle together better than I have so far,,, this last post of hers explains pretty much everything as to how Satan and his angels will perish,,,, comparing scripture with scripture and statement with statement and Luzt did a good job too.

This is such a beautiful truth, a stupendous truth,,, we must not get stuck on one aspect and ignore the overwhelming evidence.

In several instances Mrs. White takes the language of the Bible describing what God did and explains what that language means. It she can explain that language the way she does in two or three instances, does it not simply mean that it must be true in every instance otherwise there would be no point in explaining that when God says He did something, He does not mean that He did it directlty but that He allowed it or whatever the explanation is.

sky

In the Old Testament, under the Theocracy God gave direct commands to Israel to kill but remember that it was a theocracy (church and state) and that God was dealing with a people who had chosen to figth with the sword. Obviously this is something most of us have not seriously considered yet.

[Twilight]

Not a point in particular, Mark, but the whole! Because in that post teresa put many pieces of the puzzle together better than I have so far,,, this last post of hers explains pretty much everything as to how Satan and his angels will perish,,,, comparing scripture with scripture and statement with statement and Luzt did a good job too.

This is such a beautiful truth, a stupendous truth,,, we must not get stuck on one aspect and ignore the overwhelming evidence.

In several instances Mrs. White takes the language of the Bible describing what God did and explains what that language means. It she can explain that language the way she does in two or three instances, does it not simply mean that it must be true in every instance otherwise there would be no point in explaining that when God says He did something, He does not mean that He did it directlty but that He allowed it or whatever the explanation is.

sky

In the Old Testament, under the Theocracy God gave direct commands to Israel to kill but remember that it was a theocracy (church and state) and that God was dealing with a people who had chosen to figth with the sword. Obviously this is something most of us have not seriously considered yet.

I have started another thread on the subject of God ordering to kill.

I did respond to the Ezekial component.

Did you see my response to that earlier in the thread?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

"Will you still say before him who slays you' date=' 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken,' says the Lord God."(Ezekiel 28:9-10)

How would you interpret that text? I could be wrong, but it shows that someone other than God killing Satan. [/quote']

The King of Tyrus in verse 28 is clearly representative of Satan.

But this section comes from the judgement pronounced on the "Prince of Tyrus", not the "King of Tyrus".

Verse 2 talks about the prince, the King is not mentioned until verse 28.

We also have to be cautious because the Prince is described as being killed in two different ways.

Verse 8 and verse 10.

thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.

Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Two points:

1. It is not clear that the prince and the King are the same person.

2. Two different examples of how the prince will die is given.

The "prince" could well refer to another figure, a representative of the King, not necessarily the King himself.

To draw from this text that Satan is killed by man is unwise, because of these two points that cloud this position.

Mark

Here is my previous response to Ezekiel 28 Sky.

Mark

[skyblue888]

Mark, you are now saying that these passages in Ezekiel may not apply to Lucifer at all?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

the law states' date=' thou shalt not kill. the "law is a transcript of Gods character."

so does God kill?

true Yes, without malice and for the protection of the loyal. LHC

i wont list each commandment so as not to make this post too long.

remember the sabbath day.....

does God ever break this commandment? No, as understood by Jesus.LHC

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

has God ever committed adultery? No, ...LHC

"For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10

NKJV

Thou shalt not steal.

has God ever stolen? Ditto aboveLHC

so for me, to answer the question of whether or not God kills involves taking multiple perspectives into consideration.

[/quote']

so the only commandment God breaks is thou shalt not kill. and as you pointed out: "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all" James 2:10 NKJV

of course, i guess, if its "for a good reason" then it isnt really breaking the law?

so as long as God breaks a commandment "for a good reason" and it is not sin, then if we break any commandment "for a good reason" then it is not sin for us either, such as the crusades, as someone mentioned?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Rarely is teresaq empty. I think this empty quote is a false accusation.

"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes' date=' is ever ready to believe the best of every person"

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP [/quote']even when they act they act like the devil. im just teasing. couldnt let it pass.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

we so often forget there is an enemy sitting right beside us whispering in our ear interpreting the word we read.

Is it possible for God to instruct us from His word without interference from a stronger power that would make it impossible to understand correctly, especially if we had asked the Holy Spirit for wisdom as we have been instructed?

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5 NIV

"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself."John 7:17 NASB

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."Hebrews 11:6 NASB

and spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

for me to make a claim that the first time i sat down with my bible and started reading that i understood perfectly, even after having prayed for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit would be the height of ignorance not to mention stupidity, would it not be?

Genesis 33:14 ..I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, ...

2 Corinthians 3:18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

our justice (system) is all about getting even, punitive and controlling.

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"1 Timothy 1:8-10 NKJV

Blessings!

my brother, you are not differentiating between the law and the penalty here.

the law is good,

the penalty is punitive and controlling

the exact kind of penalties that will be instituted against sabbath keepers

and has been practiced against all throughout the millenia who would follow God over man.

John 8:11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

God would have us work for restoration. will we always be successful? no. but we will have been Christlike and "saved" many.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

sky

*the most significant difference lay in the fact that while Moses allowed the rod to pass out of his hands and control, Christ did not lose either His grip or His control over the scourge.

So what your saying is that what Christ did at the time He took up the scourge was to convey a possibility if they, the money changers, didn't discontinue their fraudulent activity, they could look forward to heavier penalties, not necessarily in keeping with the gentleness normally given by Him.

no.

that is a manmade assumption.

[teresaq]

...And what about these.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,

where the beast and the false prophet are also;

and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."Revelation 20:10 NASB

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14 NASB

the beast and false prophet were "thrown into the lake of fire" at the beginning of the thousand years.

so are we saying they will be burning for 1000 years?

and by whom were set on fire?

and how do you picture concepts such, as death and the grave, thrown into a lake of fire?

16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

I am a finite being and I am not able to understand the infinite. There is enough evidence on both sides that makes it hard to come to a final decision.

That is a humble choice but seems not to take into consideration

that is why Jesus became flesh, that the infinite might be understood by the finite.

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."John 16:13 NKJV

wow, my brother!

im not sure just what you meant but the way it reads it sounds like you believe we could know God absolutely and our understanding be infallible!!

i stand with my brother/sister lutz on this one. i am daily learning and growing and daily corrected and reproved. i dont want to believe i ever have it down.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

ezekiel 28:18therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee.

and this "contradicts" both revelation and ellen white.

not to mention the "universal strife" of...

Quote:

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception. With the fury of demons they turn upon them, and there follows a scene of universal strife. {4SP 487.1}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

but lets not forget that they are not standing there with empty hands. remember

Quote:

They construct weapons of war; for there are many skillful men in that vast army. ..

and this vast army surround it and place themselves in battle array.

They have prepared all kinds of implements of war, expecting to have a fierce conflict. They arrange themselves around the City. ... {1SG 216.1}

what kinds of weapons do they have with them?

and when they turn on satan and company is it with their bare hands, or with those weapons?

when we bombed hiroshima with the atomic bomb how long did it take some to die?

what about a nuclear war?

Quote:

Isaiah 34: 2For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. ...{GC 672.2}

first it says He (God) destroyed them, then it says He (God) gave them to the slaughter.

the slaughter of their own weapons?

Looks like this post has gone unnoticed.

Mark, how come you have nothing to say about it. Please read it again and again.

sky

wow, thanks sky!

that did come out pretty good didnt it?

all thanks to God Who brought it to my mind as i attempted to humble myself before Him.

[teresaq]

sky

In the Old Testament, under the Theocracy God gave direct commands to Israel to kill but remember that it was a theocracy (church and state) and that God was dealing with a people who had chosen to figth with the sword. Obviously this is something most of us have not seriously considered yet.

it is a point i hadnt considered, or known about before until very recently, thats for sure.

[Lutz13]

i stand with my brother ( )/sister lutz on this one. i am daily learning and growing and daily corrected and reproved. i dont want to believe i ever have it down.

You make many wonderful points sister. They are a blessing indeed. I would agree that we are nowhere near comprehending Gods ways.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:9) "For now we see in a mirror, simly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."(1 Corinthians 13:12)