Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[pnattmbtc]

It is said that God is not only love, but He is also just. Is it necessary to be violent in order to be just?

In reading through this thread, it seems to me that justice by some is being equated with violence, and implied that if God does not act with violence, then He is not being just.

But where does violence come from? Did it exist before sin came about? Was it something hidden within God's character, and not revealed (like mercy or grace) before sin came into being? Or was it a result of sin?

If it's a result of sin, does it make sense to assert that God would make use of it?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Stephanus

Why should God wish to change when He promised destruction from the very beginning of all of those that are against Him?

You belabour or confuse a point that is simple to understand. God does not change! When He said (in the beginning) that He will bring death for disobedience, why do you wish to imply that I say that He changed or has to change to fulfill His promise (of DESTRUCTION)?

While this is an old post, I would like to clarify a point re: to the underlined above.

If you'll recall that promise from Genesis, God did not say He would destroy the person who ate of the fruit from the tree. He said, "...Thou shalt surely die."

ylt: Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

The warning given to our first parents--"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17)--did not imply that they were to die on the very day when they partook of the forbidden fruit. But on that day the irrevocable sentence would be pronounced. Immortality was promised them on condition of obedience; by transgression they would forfeit eternal life. That very day they would be doomed to death. {PP 60.2}

In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. ... {PP 60.3}

(and they saw, as they had never seen before, the guilt of sin and its dire results. In their remorse and anguish they pleaded that the penalty might not fall upon Him whose love had been the source of all their joy; rather let it descend upon them and their posterity. {PP 66.3})

they plead to die themselves, or to let them and their posterity endure the penalty of their transgression, rather than that the beloved Son of God should make this great sacrifice. .. {1SP 50.2}

neither our pioneers nor ellen white understood that God would kill adam and eve if they ate the fruit.

that is a new belief that has somehow come up and taken over our church.

[Guest]

It is said that God is not only love, but He is also just. Is it necessary to be violent in order to be just?

In reading through this thread, it seems to me that justice by some is being equated with violence, and implied that if God does not act with violence, then He is not being just.

But where does violence come from? Did it exist before sin came about? Was it something hidden within God's character, and not revealed (like mercy or grace) before sin came into being? Or was it a result of sin?

If it's a result of sin, does it make sense to assert that God would make use of it?

God has said he will destroy the wicked with fire. I won't speculate as to where this comes from, but it is refered to as his strange act. Is it violence? I don't know. We don't know how much pain they will actually feel.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim' date=' he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth. "Isaiah 28:22,23 KJV

Regards! [/quote']

oldsailor believes that everyone is going to be saved. He and I have debated this. He says God wants to save everyone, and God gets what he wants.

aaaah, universalists. i didnt know the adventist church had them til i met some on another forum.

this one doesnt seem to be as irritating as one of those, tho. that one had the habit of hijacking every topic he could and not accurately quoting anyone.

well that seems to be somewhat universal for those who dont like what someone else says. we'll just say he really said such and such.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

While this is an old post, I would like to clarify a point re: to the underlined above.

If you'll recall that promise from Genesis, God did not say He would destroy the person who ate of the fruit from the tree. He said, "...Thou shalt surely die." [/quote']ylt: Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

The warning given to our first parents--"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17)--did not imply that they were to die on the very day when they partook of the forbidden fruit. But on that day the irrevocable sentence would be pronounced. Immortality was promised them on condition of obedience; by transgression they would forfeit eternal life. That very day they would be doomed to death. {PP 60.2}

In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. ... {PP 60.3}

(and they saw, as they had never seen before, the guilt of sin and its dire results. In their remorse and anguish they pleaded that the penalty might not fall upon Him whose love had been the source of all their joy; rather let it descend upon them and their posterity. {PP 66.3})

they plead to die themselves, or to let them and their posterity endure the penalty of their transgression, rather than that the beloved Son of God should make this great sacrifice. .. {1SP 50.2}

neither our pioneers nor ellen white understood that God would kill adam and eve if they ate the fruit.

that is a new belief that has somehow come up and taken over our church.

So you're saying the death is a result of sin and not anything done by God. I can see that. I did not know about this new belief that God would kill them, although he does destroy the wicked at the end. This is not new.

[Guest]

I didn't know there was a name for them. Well, he is one then.

[teresaq]

So you're saying the death is a result of sin and not anything done by God. I can see that. I did not know about this new belief that God would kill them, although he does destroy the wicked at the end. This is not new.

[Guest]

Yes

[wayfinder]

Ge 6:17

"Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

Genesis 19:24,25 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

Exodus 12:29 Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle.

Ex 23:23

" For My angel will go before you and bring you in to {the land of} the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.

Re 11:18

"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Revelation 19:17-21 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

He who sits on the horse is Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Yes, God executes people and destroys the wicked.

Ge 3:3

but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "

Strong's Number: 4191 Transliterated Word Muwth

1.to die, kill, have one executed

a.(Qal)

1.to die

2.to die (as penalty), be put to death

God told Adam that if he were to eat from the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil, he would be put to death, not start dying. God did not execute Adam and Eve, He executed His Son in their place.

[teresaq]

an example if i may:

Quote:

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

is this true, or literal? did God actually send serpents into the camp?

[Guest]

The fire wasn't real but the serpents were. I couldn't really picture them being on fire.

[John317]

an example if i may:

Quote:

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

is this true, or literal? did God actually send serpents into the camp?

The point is that literal serpents killed literal people, and this was the result of God's activity. God knew the effect of withdrawing His protection from the people.

The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., were the result of God's actions.

[teresaq]

Ge 3:3

but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.' "

Strong's Number: 4191 Transliterated Word Muwth

1.to die, kill, have one executed

a.(Qal)

1.to die

2.to die (as penalty), be put to death

God told Adam that if he were to eat from the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil, he would be put to death, not start dying. God did not execute Adam and Eve, He executed His Son in their place.

[wayfinder]

I agree that immortality was granted to them on condition of obedience, which was the function and purpose of the tree of life. Adam and Eve were dust (flesh and blood) they were mortal beings. When God formed Adam of the dust and breathed into him the breath of life he comes to life. God then placed him in the garden of paradise and as long as Adam and Eve were obedient, by not eating from the forbidden tree, they would always have access to the tree of life and live forever. What other reason or rational would there be for a tree of life in the garden? The only act of obedience that Adam and Eve could demonstrate was not to eat from the forbidden tree.

I understand that the account of Abraham, being commanded by God to execute his promised son, was prefiguring the execution of the promised Son of God. When darkness came upon the land as Jesus hung on the cross, I believe that His father (God) was in the darkness. The reason for the darkness is that were God not to cloak Himself with darkness the light of His glory would destroy all flesh in the vicinity. When the darkness lifted Jesus said, "My God, My God, why have You left Me alone" and God the Father took the breath of His only begotten Son and He died. This is the way, I understand, that Adam and Eve were to be executed, God would take the breath of life He had given them and it could not, and never would be returned to them, because they were guilty of disobedience. The Son of God's breath returned to Him because He was not guilty. Once a price is paid it is paid forever, no matter if the one paying owes it or not.

[Guest]

Did it not kill Jesus when God the Father turned his back on the scene?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The point is that literal serpents killed literal people, and this was the result of God's activity. God knew the effect of withdrawing His protection from the people.

The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., were the result of God's actions.

Was the action similar to the action God took in the case of the serpents?

[pnattmbtc]

The point is that literal serpents killed literal people, and this was the result of God's activity. God knew the effect of withdrawing His protection from the people.

The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., were the result of God's actions.

Was the action similar to the action God took in the case of the serpents?

[pnattmbtc]

I'm going to repost this, as I'd like to see these questions discussed. I'm particularly interested in the question of if God is dependent upon violence in order to achieve His goals.

It is said that God is not only love, but He is also just. Is it necessary to be violent in order to be just?

In reading through this thread, it seems to me that justice by some is being equated with violence, and implied that if God does not act with violence, then He is not being just.

But where does violence come from? Did it exist before sin came about? Was it something hidden within God's character, and not revealed (like mercy or grace) before sin came into being? Or was it a result of sin?

If it's a result of sin, does it make sense to assert that God would make use of it?

So far, only Richard addressed it, but he just mentioned one example, and said he didn't know if this was violence or not. If we're talking about ordinary fire, I think most people would consider setting someone on fire to be violence, but whoever chooses to respond to this post may define violence as they wish. I'm interested in the overall concept of whether God is dependent upon violence in order to achieve His goals.

[Guest]

I don't think God is dependent on anything.

[pnattmbtc]

Can God achieve His goals without violence? If we say He isn't dependent on anything, but He uses violence to achieve His goals, that just begs another question, which is why would God use violence to achieve His goals (assuming that He does) if He doesn't need to?

[LifeHiscost]

Yes

That's the way I read it.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

God told Adam that if he were to eat from the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil, he would be put to death, not start dying. God did not execute Adam and Eve, He executed His Son in their place.

For those who place their trust in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for themselves, it is true they will receive eternal life as a result of Jesus taking their penalty.

As to the Father executing His Son, the penalty of sin is not receiving execution. It is dying as a result of sin, which sin separates the sinner from the Giver of Life.

" And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”" Gen 2:16,17 NKJV

"The soul (person) that sinneth, it shall die."Ezekiel 18:20 KJV parenthesis mine Biblical explanation if needed LHC

Adam died as the result of his sin, at 930 earthly years.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."2 Peter 3:8 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

I don't think God is dependent on anything.

Is there a word for self-sufficient One? Would omniscient be it?

That seems to be understood by most Christians, I believe.

"Then you will understand the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of [our omniscient] God."Proverbs 2:5 AMP brackets their's LHC

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Just tagging on.

If I can't depend on what the Bible says about hell, how could I depend on what it says about heaven?

In the original language, hell means the grave.

In the original language, heaven means the abode of God. Is that not right?

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

God will make all things new again. (Rev 21:5) That is the ultimate and final make-over story.

Are you saying that all of humanity will receive that final makeover, even the ones that hate God and His Son and the choices He makes?

Blessings!