Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Richard' date=' you're completely missing my point, although I've explained it several times. My point is not that the wicked will get a second chance. They've fixed their characters. My point was that God is not doing something against their will. [/quote']

Why is this so hard to see?

I guess if we say "yes" on one point we may be afraid that we will have to say "yes" or some other point which could mean that we would have to change our position and this is what I believe is the hardest thing for us to do as a people because we think that we know and possess everything when it comes to understanding the Word of God. I am not saying this. The Lord is. In 1 S.M.358 the Lord Himself says that the people of Laodicea "claim to know and possess everything."

sky

I am rejecting this position because it is not specifically mentioned in SOP or Bible.

Not because of pride.

Could it not be pride that accuses others of pride when they will not accept a position we adhere to?

We have to be careful when we start to use the SOP to denounce others who disagree with our position, and using a general statement to make us "right"!

Is that not the same spirit as this:

"Lord, do you want us to call fire out of heaven...?"

:-)

This is my position:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I can see in scripture the idea that God revealing His Glory is a consuming fire.

Is this His "Strange Act"?

Is the unveiling of His Glory, the fire from Heaven.

Is it the case that when God reveals Himself fully, that sin is destroyed?

That God by choosing to reveal his full Glory brings a natural consequence of the wicked being destroyed?

The bible seems to allow that interpretation.

But not the idea that men kill Satan.

Mark :-)

His strange act! Did you miss something Mark? The other day I posted something as to what inspiration tells us what is actually God's strange act. You must have missed it. Like I said before, there are two statements that I know of from inspiration about God's strange act. The one usually quoted is usually misunderstood and the second one no one seems to be familiar with. I will quote them again.

"The work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love." P.P.139.

This statement is taken to mean that God is the executioner of the sentence against transgression and that this is His strange work. But that statement is not saying that the work of destruction is God's strange work but that it is a strange work.

"Satan is the destroyer."6 T 388. "God destroys no man." C.O.L.85.

Now then, what is God's strange work?

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." Review and Herald, Vol.3, p.583.

This is His strange work, not to destroy, but to be constantly at work to repair the ruin that sin and Satan have made. It is written that Jesus came to this earth to destroy the works of the devil. In order to "destroy" the works of the devil He had to uncover the many truths that Satan had buried underneath the rubbish of human traditions and theories and maxims and to be constantly healing those whom Satan had afflicted with many illnesses, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

This is God's strange act my friend.

in love,

sky

At the end of the thousand years when all the unsaved of all ages are gathered around the city in their mortal state, God the Father and Christ will be there in all their divine glory, and all the redeemed will be there clothed with the same glory, and all the glorious angels will be there too and yet all the unsaved will be standing there around the City without being destroyed by that glory.

The way sinners are detroyed by the glory of God is when they reject the light that is sent to them and it is by the persistent rejection of light that the Holy Spirit (the glory of God in the form of grace) is forced to withdran from the unbelieving sinners and they are left to the control and enmity and malice of Satan. It is in that sense that they are destroyed by the glory of God. This is what is going to take place in these last days. Those who will reject the loud cry message will be destroyed by the seven last plagues and yet it is said that they will be destroyed by the glory of God. The Jews were destroyed by the glory of God too as they rejected the light of the glory of God which was shining in the face of Jesus Christ. The protection of God was finally withdrawn from them and God's restraining power was removed from the evil agencies and they were left to the control of the leader they had chosen. This is clearly stated in the book The Great Controversy, p.p.28,35,36.

This is how they were destroyed by the glory of God and this is how the wicked after the thousand years will be destroyed, not by the direct act or decree of God but the wicked will turn on Satan and his angels first and then on themselves.

sky

Have you considered this part of SOP:

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

-----------------------------

The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though . He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}

Again, the divine message comes to Ezekiel: "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." The very fact of God's unwillingness to punish sinners shows the enormity of the sins that call forth his judgments. And yet to every transgressor of his holy law is addressed that earnest, pleading call, "Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 16}

The records of sacred history declare, that while God is a God of justice, strict to mark iniquity, and strong to punish the sinner, he is also a God of truth, compassion, and abundant mercy. While he visits judgments upon the transgressors of his law and the enemies of his people, he will protect those who respect his statutes and show kindness to his chosen. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 17}

I believe you are misapplying the SOP to your position Sky.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No Mark, you are looking for a loophole. The Pit is the lake of fire. There is no other place because this is taking place at the end of the thousand years not during the thousand years. There will be no wicked alive during the 1000 years to draw their swords against Satan as this passage of Scripture says. It is after the thousand years that these events are taking place at the time of the executive judgment and God will not be the executioner but the wicked will execute themselves, Satan and his branches.

sky

No loophole my friend, read this:

The dragon, who was the instigator of the great rebellion against heaven, is

found and cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Then follows the resurrection of the wicked and the final destruction of Satan and all the wicked, and the final triumph and reign of Christ in this earth. {15MR 321.3}

[skyblue888]

No loophole my friend, read this:

The dragon, who was the instigator of the great rebellion against heaven, is found and cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Then follows the resurrection of the wicked and the final destruction of Satan and all the wicked, and the final triumph and reign of Christ in this earth. {15MR 321.3}

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

His strange act! Did you miss something Mark? The other day I posted something as to what inspiration tells us what is actually God's strange act. You must have missed it. Like I said before, there are two statements that I know of from inspiration about God's strange act. The one usually quoted is usually misunderstood and the second one no one seems to be familiar with. I will quote them again.

"The work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love." P.P.139.

This statement is taken to mean that God is the executioner of the sentence against transgression and that this is His strange work. But that statement is not saying that the work of destruction is God's strange work but that it is a strange work.

"Satan is the destroyer."6 T 388. "God destroys no man." C.O.L.85.

Now then, what is God's strange work?

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." Review and Herald, Vol.3, p.583.

This is His strange work, not to destroy, but to be constantly at work to repair the ruin that sin and Satan have made. It is written that Jesus came to this earth to destroy the works of the devil. In order to "destroy" the works of the devil He had to uncover the many truths that Satan had buried underneath the rubbish of human traditions and theories and maxims and to be constantly healing those whom Satan had afflicted with many illnesses, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

This is God's strange act my friend.

in love,

sky

At the end of the thousand years when all the unsaved of all ages are gathered around the city in their mortal state, God the Father and Christ will be there in all their divine glory, and all the redeemed will be there clothed with the same glory, and all the glorious angels will be there too and yet all the unsaved will be standing there around the City without being destroyed by that glory.

The way sinners are detroyed by the glory of God is when they reject the light that is sent to them and it is by the persistent rejection of light that the Holy Spirit (the glory of God in the form of grace) is forced to withdran from the unbelieving sinners and they are left to the control and enmity and malice of Satan. It is in that sense that they are destroyed by the glory of God. This is what is going to take place in these last days. Those who will reject the loud cry message will be destroyed by the seven last plagues and yet it is said that they will be destroyed by the glory of God. The Jews were destroyed by the glory of God too as they rejected the light of the glory of God which was shining in the face of Jesus Christ. The protection of God was finally withdrawn from them and God's restraining power was removed from the evil agencies and they were left to the control of the leader they had chosen. This is clearly stated in the book The Great Controversy, p.p.28,35,36.

This is how they were destroyed by the glory of God and this is how the wicked after the thousand years will be destroyed, not by the direct act or decree of God but the wicked will turn on Satan and his angels first and then on themselves.

sky

[/quote']

Have you considered this part of SOP:

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

-----------------------------

The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though . He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}

Again, the divine message comes to Ezekiel: "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." The very fact of God's unwillingness to punish sinners shows the enormity of the sins that call forth his judgments. And yet to every transgressor of his holy law is addressed that earnest, pleading call, "Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 16}

The records of sacred history declare, that while God is a God of justice, strict to mark iniquity, and strong to punish the sinner, he is also a God of truth, compassion, and abundant mercy. While he visits judgments upon the transgressors of his law and the enemies of his people, he will protect those who respect his statutes and show kindness to his chosen. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 17}

I believe you are misapplying the SOP to your position Sky.

Mark

The only way it can be said that it would be His strange act is in the sense that He would no longer protect. Mrs. White was shown that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. Do you believe that implicitly Mark? The wicked, she says, place themselves where He can no longer protect them. Do you believe this implicitly Mark?

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

Do we believe this or not? This is always true no matter how the language of the Bible seems to be against it. In fact when the language of the Bible is correctly understood, it is seen that what Mrs. White just stated is what the Bible means when describing God's actions and that it is always consistent with that revealed principle.

sky

[skyblue888]

The records of sacred history declare, that while God is a God of justice, strict to mark iniquity, and strong to punish the sinner, he is also a God of truth, compassion, and abundant mercy. While he visits judgments upon the transgressors of his law and the enemies of his people, he will protect those who respect his statutes and show kindness to his chosen. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 17}

Yes that statement clearly says that God is a God of justice and strong to punish the sinner. But we must compare statement with statement in order to know what that means.

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act in transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." 1 S.M.235.

Do you see what happens when we let inspiration be its own interpreter?

I am not presenting my own views as you claim.

I am trying to let the Bible and the SOP teach us.

"The testimonies will be the key that will explain the messages given as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.2.

Now, again, let us put these two side by side:

"While he visits judgments upon the transgressors of his law and the enemies of his people, he will protect those who respect his statutes and show kindness to his chosen."

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

No loophole my friend, read this:

The dragon, who was the instigator of the great rebellion against heaven, is found and cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Then follows the resurrection of the wicked and the final destruction of Satan and all the wicked, and the final triumph and reign of Christ in this earth. {15MR 321.3}

_________________________________

All right then Mark, the earth is a bottomless pit in which Satan is cast during the 1000 years but not by the wicked.

The statement that we wanted you to look at is this one: "Saith the Lord: 'Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.'" ... Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

Now this is not about the 1,000 years but about after the 1,000 years when the wicked will bring Satan down to the pit. Another passage in Ezekiel is that he will die in the midst of the "seas," meaning in the midst of the wicked for he will die at their hand. This is what Mrs. White also says in G.C.672 as you very well know.

So my dear brother, do you see how this last statement is talking about the executive judgment after the 1,000 years when the wicked will draw their swords and bring him down to the pit? As I said before, the wicked will not be the ones to cast him down into the bottomless pit at the beginning of the 1,000 years.

That is clear.

sky

Have you considered this statement on how Satan is destroyed Sky?

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

There is no mention here of man destroying Satan.

But that His very presence is destructive to them.

His Glory destroys them.

Mark

[Guest]

The only way it can be said that it would be His strange act is in the sense that He would no longer protect. Mrs. White was shown that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. Do you believe that implicitly Mark? The wicked, she says, place themselves where He can no longer protect them. Do you believe this implicitly Mark?

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

You are taking this quote out of context. She is not referring to the final judgment here, but the judgements that fall on sinful man during his lifetime. Here is the full quote:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHisCost

I'm also wondering, pnattmbtc, if you consider that first and second sentence as symbolic? And if they are, where does the information come from that identifies them in symbolism? If not, where does one determine the separation between symbolism and reality in the same paragraph?

The *vision* was symbolic. The prophet, whether Ellen White or John, described what was seen and heard in the vision.

You've made a statement. What is the evidence that has caused you to draw this conclusion? The conclusion reached seems only to be based on an opinion.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Mark

No Mark, you are looking for a loophole. The Pit is the lake of fire. There is no other place because this is taking place at the end of the thousand years not during the thousand years. There will be no wicked alive during the 1000 years to draw their swords against Satan as this passage of Scripture says. It is after the thousand years that these events are taking place at the time of the executive judgment and God will not be the executioner but the wicked will execute themselves, Satan and his branches.

sky

Maybe this is the loophole for which he's looking. Seems rather plain and rather literal to a great degree. I feel safe walking through this one.

"“For behold, the day is coming,

Burning like an oven,

And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.

And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”

Says the LORD of hosts,

“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.

But to you who fear My name

The Sun of Righteousness shall arise

With healing in His wings;

And you shall go out

And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

You shall trample the wicked,

For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet

On the day that I do this,”

Says the LORD of hosts."Malachi 4:1-3 NKJV

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

The quote was from Early Writings, which is a book where Ellen White told of visions she saw. Here's a comment of his on this topic from this very book, interestingly enough:

Quote:

I also stated that "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God." I will give another sentence from the same page: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne." Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red

dragon, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements. (EW 92, 93)

[skyblue888]

Some of you would have us believe that if any one of us finds himself outside of the city after the thousand years looking in we won't be given the opportunity to get even with Satan and his evil angels! I tell you, the multitudes will be filled with fury and everyone will want to get close to Satan to tear him to pieces if you will and this is exactly what the Bible and the SOP tell us will happen. G.C.672.

As to God being a consuming fire, it does not say that His physical glory would destroy them but that His character of love, the spirit of love and unselfishness that reigns supreme in Heaven would be to them AS a consuming fire that would make them want to flee the place never to return.

There is a vast difference.

After the thousand years all the wicked will be standing in their mortal bodies around the City and God and Christ will stand upon the wall of the City and then they will see in panoramic view the whole history of the plan of salvation from start to finish and while this is happening they are not destoyed by the brightness of this glory. But when they see why they are excluded from Heaven, they acknowledge that God is indeed righteous and they will bow down and Satan will bow down too. Then they will rise up and begin to accuse one another but all will agree to blame Satan and his angels for their being lost eternally and they will turn upom them with a vengeance that will know no bounds and this is how Satan and his angels will fall never to be again.

Then the Lord will cleanse the earth with the whole solar system and beyond even. The visible skies will be rolled away and the invisible worlds will appear to our astonished eyes.

As I said before and I will say it again, the reason why many have difficutly understanding the language of the Bible when it comes to God's dealing with sin is because we refuse to accept the simple declarations of Scripture to the effect that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36. And that His judgments do not come direclty out from Him upon the wicked but that they place themselves beyond His protection. This has always been true and it will be no different after the thousand years.

sky

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHisCost

I'm also wondering, pnattmbtc, if you consider that first and second sentence as symbolic? And if they are, where does the information come from that identifies them in symbolism? If not, where does one determine the separation between symbolism and reality in the same paragraph?

The *vision* was symbolic. The prophet, whether Ellen White or John, described what was seen and heard in the vision.

And if it were symbolic, can you point out what the symbolism is of and why it's necessary for symbolism, in this case?

Regards!

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding Malachi 4, the following explanation quotes from this same text:

Quote:

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

The explanation is that the destruction of the wicked is a result of the choice of the wicked themselves, as opposed to something God does to them. That is, it is not an act of arbitrary, or imposed, power on the part of God, but the wicked receive the results of their own choice, the inevitable result of sin being death.

It's not God's saying, "Stop sinning, or I will kill you!" but "Why will you die? Stop sinning; it will kill you!" For example, a person who smokes may get cancer. This could be considered a judgment of God. It's not that God inflicts people who smoke with cancer as an arbitrary, or imposed, punishment, but smoking results in cancer. Similarly sin results in death. So God, who loves us, and doesn't want us to die, does all He can to separate us from sin.

The key to this is a revelation of Himself:

Quote:

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes.(ST 1/20/90)

The only way for us to be set right and kept right is by Christ's revealing God to us.

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. (ibid)

The "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God," by which we are set right with God.

[Twilight]

Some of you would have us believe that if any one of us finds himself outside of the city after the thousand years looking in we won't be given the opportunity to get even with Satan and his evil angels! I tell you, the multitudes will be filled with fury and everyone will want to get close to Satan to tear him to pieces if you will and this is exactly what the Bible and the SOP tell us will happen. G.C.672.

As to God being a consuming fire, it does not say that His physical glory would destroy them but that His character of love, the spirit of love and unselfishness that reigns supreme in Heaven would be to them AS a consuming fire that would make them want to flee the place never to return.

There is a vast difference.

After the thousand years all the wicked will be standing in their mortal bodies around the City and God and Christ will stand upon the wall of the City and then they will see in panoramic view the whole history of the plan of salvation from start to finish and while this is happening they are not destoyed by the brightness of this glory. But when they see why they are excluded from Heaven, they acknowledge that God is indeed righteous and they will bow down and Satan will bow down too. Then they will rise up and begin to accuse one another but all will agree to blame Satan and his angels for their being lost eternally and they will turn upom them with a vengeance that will know no bounds and this is how Satan and his angels will fall never to be again.

Then the Lord will cleanse the earth with the whole solar system and beyond even. The visible skies will be rolled away and the invisible worlds will appear to our astonished eyes.

As I said before and I will say it again, the reason why many have difficutly understanding the language of the Bible when it comes to God's dealing with sin is because we refuse to accept the simple declarations of Scripture to the effect that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36. And that His judgments do not come direclty out from Him upon the wicked but that they place themselves beyond His protection. This has always been true and it will be no different after the thousand years.

sky

If I take the following quote literally, as it stands and add nothing to it Sky, do you think God will perceive me as accepting to refuse a simple declaration?

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

This is the only statement I can find where Ellen White expresses her view on how Satan will be destroyed.

She does not mention weapons, or man doing the destroying.

I have not found one instance where she upholds this view.

But the above is a clear declaration of how she understood Satan to be destroyed.

This also agrees with scripture and is in harmony.

Do you have a statement from Ellen White that states that man destroys Satan, that this was her understanding Sky?

In love,

Mark

[Twilight]

Further to the above:

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.--DA 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

[Guest]

The only way it can be said that it would be His strange act is in the sense that He would no longer protect. Mrs. White was shown that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. Do you believe that implicitly Mark? The wicked, she says, place themselves where He can no longer protect them. Do you believe this implicitly Mark?

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

You are taking this quote out of context. She is not referring to the final judgment here, but the judgements that fall on sinful man during his lifetime. Here is the full quote:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}

[LifeHiscost]

God isn't the executioner, self is.

To execute judgment for those who receive the blessings of the kingdom of heaven is not considered to be unworthy of the King of glory. Why would taking care of business when there is a blight in His universe seem to be beyond His rightful place.

Unlike human wisdom, He does not shirk the unsavory parts of His domain. That is the reason why satan has been given such a lengthy period of time to reveal how his plans work. Our heavenly Father knows when it is best to halt the slaughter and will take the necessary measures when the time is right and His children are ready.

"To everything there is a season,

A time for every purpose under heaven:

A time to be born,

And a time to die;

A time to plant, And a time to pluck what is planted;

A time to kill,

And a time to heal;

A time to break down,

And a time to build up;

A time to weep,

And a time to laugh;

A time to mourn,

And a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones,

And a time to gather stones;

A time to embrace,

And a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to gain,

And a time to lose;

A time to keep,

And a time to throw away;

A time to tear,

And a time to sew;

A time to keep silence,

And a time to speak;

A time to love,

And a time to hate;

A time of war,

And a time of peace." Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

So I ask again, do you have a specific statement or text that shows man kills Satan?

If you have, then I will accept it.

Mark :-)

Sounds like a reasonable expectation to me.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

[skyblue888]

It is difficult for me to understand why we would not let the Bible interpret itself as well as the SOP. You take that one statement about the presence of God being as a consuming fire and build a whole theory upon it instead of building upon the foundation: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

If we read a passage of Scripture or a statement that we think is contradicting that principle, then we may know that it is only an apparent contradiction. If God in the end is found to be the executioner of the sentence against transgression, then the statement which is the foundation and central pillar as to how He deals with sin and sinners would cease to be true and that would make God a liar. But that won't happen.

If we accept the foundational statement we will have no difficulty understanding the language of Heaven.

sky

* I have been studying this issue since 1983 and I am telling you there is much more evidence to support that God is never the executioner of the sentence against transgression.

[Guest]

The only way it can be said that it would be His strange act is in the sense that He would no longer protect. Mrs. White was shown that God's judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. Do you believe that implicitly Mark? The wicked, she says, place themselves where He can no longer protect them. Do you believe this implicitly Mark?

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." 14 MR 3.1

You are taking this quote out of context. She is not referring to the final judgment here, but the judgements that fall on sinful man during his lifetime. Here is the full quote:

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}

[Twilight]

It is difficult for me to understand why we would not let the Bible interpret itself as well as the SOP. You take that one statement about the presence of God being as a consuming fire and build a whole theory upon it instead of building upon the foundation: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

If we read a passage of Scripture or a statement that we think is contradicting that principle, then we may know that it is only an apparent contradiction. If God in the end is found to be the executioner of the sentence against transgression, then the statement which is the foundation as to how He deals with sin and sinners could cease to be true and that would make God a liar. But that won't happen.

If we accept the foundational statement we will have no difficulty understanding the language of Heaven.

sky

But that is the danger, when we take one principle and try to force scripture to fit it.

One principle on its own is insufficient to describe the complexities of how God deals with His creation.

You have stated above that we should not take that one statement and built on it.

But then you have said:

instead of building upon the foundation: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression."

And by doing, you have just done the very thing you condemned in the same breath!

Think about it my friend.

You have said the following:

"You cannot use one statement as the principle for deciding this issue, but here is "the single statement" that decides this issue, and you must accept this..."

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It is difficult for me to understand why we would not let the Bible interpret itself as well as the SOP. You take that one statement about the presence of God being as a consuming fire and build a whole theory upon it instead of building upon the foundation: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

If we read a passage of Scripture or a statement that we think is contradicting that principle, then we may know that it is only an apparent contradiction. If God in the end is found to be the executioner of the sentence against transgression, then the statement which is the foundation as to how He deals with sin and sinners could cease to be true and that would make God a liar. But that won't happen.

If we accept the foundational statement we will have no difficulty understanding the language of Heaven.

sky

But that is the danger, when we take one principle and try to force scripture to fit it.

One principle on its own is insufficient to describe the complexities of how God deals with His creation.

You have stated above that we should not take that one statement and built on it.

But then you have said:

instead of building upon the foundation: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression."

And by doing, you have just done the very thing you condemned in the same breath!

Think about it my friend.

You have said the following:

"You cannot use one statement as the principle for deciding this issue, but here is "the single statement" that decides this issue, and you must accept this..."

Mark :-)

Mark, there is a difference between a lone statement that needs to be understood in the light of the foundational statement. When the Holy Spirit tells us that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," He means it and every other statement needs to be read with that foundational statement in mind. Thats what I meant just as Daniel 8:14 is the foundational and central pillar of the Advent movement.

sky

[LifeHiscost]

The quote was from Early Writings, which is a book where Ellen White told of visions she saw. Here's a comment of his on this topic from this very book, interestingly enough:

Quote:

I also stated that "Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God." I will give another sentence from the same page: "I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne." Now this praying company was in this mortal state, on the earth, yet represented to me as bowed before the throne. I never had the idea that these individuals were actually in the New Jerusalem. Neither did I ever think that any mortal could suppose that I believed that Satan was actually in the New Jerusalem. But did not John see the great red dragon in heaven? Certainly. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red

dragon, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 12:3. What a monster to be in heaven! Here seems to be as good a chance for ridicule as in the interpretation which some have placed upon my statements. (EW 92, 93)

Thank you, pnattmbtc, for bringing that to my attention. It does present a real problem that still exists to this day, that of individuals attempting to ridicule the writings of Ellen White as if she were not a messenger of the Lord. Whether it is enough to carry the weight of some of the conclusions you present in this thread is debatable for me, at least without a great deal more study.

Blessings!