Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression,"

Sky, you have taken this one statement and declared that this is to be the foundation of how we view all other quotes and texts to the contrary on this topic.

Ellen White did not say "this is the foundation we are to use when studying the destruction of the wicked" Sky did.

In fact if you read just a little further on from where this quote is found you will see this:

Christ has declared that he will come the second time, to gather his faithful ones to himself: “Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.]

Can you not see what you are doing here? This isolated quote is not the foundation of this topic just because you say it is. It does not trump all the many other Ellen White quotes on this topic, and all the scripture given on this just because you think it should.

Are we not supposed to go with the weight of evidence?

[skyblue888]

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression,"

Sky, you have taken this one statement and declared that this is to be the foundation of how we view all other quotes and texts to the contrary on this topic.

Ellen White did not say "this is the foundation we are to use when studying the destruction of the wicked" Sky did.

In fact if you read just a little further on from where this quote is found you will see this:

Christ has declared that he will come the second time, to gather his faithful ones to himself: “Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.]

Can you not see what you are doing here? This isolated quote is not the foundation of this topic just because you say it is. It does not trump all the many other Ellen White quotes on this topic, and all the scripture given on this just because you think it should.

Are we not supposed to go with the weight of evidence?

How can we say it is an isolated quote when it is the very essence and heart of the very subject we are discussing! Right after she states that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," she adds these words: "He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." And then a few sentences further down in the same paragraph, she adds these words: ""The Spirit of God persistently resisted is at last withdrawn from the sinner and there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36.

And then I also added many other statements which confirm this foundational principle like this one:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come direclty out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." MR 14, 3.1.

How could the Lord have made Himself more clear on this subject, pray tell me? If we reject these clear statements of truth which establish the principles of His dealing with men and with sin, we shall reap unbelief.

sky

[Guest]

All these statements when read in context are not talking about the final destruction.

This one is, along with many more like it.

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

You have to make sure the quote is talking about the very thing you are trying to prove, and not take it out of context, which is what you have done over and over.

[skyblue888]

All these statements when read in context are not talking about the final destruction.

This one is, along with many more like it.

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

You have to make sure the quote is talking about the very thing you are trying to prove, and not take it out of context, which is what you have done over and over.

I have been observing you Richard. From what I can see, what you are doing is instead of accepting the statements which clearly establish how the language of the Bible is to be understood or interpreted when it comes to God punishing or destroying sinners, you choose to totally disregard that and then quote one passage of Scripture after another to support your view without taking into account the very inspired statements that explain that language. The Lord has given us the principles and we must abide by them. In many cases we are not told how the wicked were destroyed. It is just stated that God destroyed them but this is no reason to question the principles that clearly teach that the judgments of God do not come dirrectly out from the Lord upon the wicked.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Removing Gods active participation from the destruction of the wicked, means that God can "never" act against sin.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

All these statements when read in context are not talking about the final destruction.

This one is, along with many more like it.

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

You have to make sure the quote is talking about the very thing you are trying to prove, and not take it out of context, which is what you have done over and over.

I have been observing you Richard. From what I can see, what you are doing is instead of accepting the statements which clearly establish how the language of the Bible is to be understood or interpreted when it comes to God punishing or destroying sinners, you choose to totally disregard that and then quote one passage of Scripture after another to support your view without taking into account the very inspired statements that explain that language. The Lord has given us the principles and we must abide by them. In many cases we are not told how the wicked were destroyed. It is just stated that God destroyed them but this is no reason to question the principles that clearly teach that the judgments of God do not come dirrectly out from the Lord upon the wicked. sky

I could say the same about you. You have set yourself up as the only one having any light on this subject, instead of letting people study and decide for themselves. It's either the Sky way or the highway. You would do well to heed the words of caution from Twilight on this matter.

[pnattmbtc]

All these statements when read in context are not talking about the final destruction.

This one is, along with many more like it.

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

You have to make sure the quote is talking about the very thing you are trying to prove, and not take it out of context, which is what you have done over and over.

Regarding this text, DA 107, 108 makes clear this is not dealing with a literal fire, but with the revelation of God's character. I've already written this out for Twilight, but could repeat it if you'd like (it's on this thread).

At any rate, this statement is expressing the same thought as the statements in GC 35-37.

I think it's rather difficult to make the case that not statements which deal with the destruction of the wicked are valid unless they are speaking specifically of the final judgment. That would imply that God is suddenly not Himself anymore, and acts completely contrary to how He's acted in the past, according to different principles, and from the standpoint of having a different character.

But if one looks at inspired statements, such as GC 541-543, one can see that the same principles God has always abided by He continues to utilize, such as "kindness, mercy and love."

One final point, from your comments on another thread, it seems you are a fan of the 1888 message. Bearing this in mind, I'll mention that the ideas being shared here in regards to the destruction of the wicked in the final judgment are in harmony with what Jones and Waggoner taught (and Robert Wieland as well.)

[pnattmbtc]

sky:I have been observing you Richard. From what I can see, what you are doing is instead of accepting the statements which clearly establish how the language of the Bible is to be understood or interpreted when it comes to God punishing or destroying sinners, you choose to totally disregard that and then quote one passage of Scripture after another to support your view without taking into account the very inspired statements that explain that language. The Lord has given us the principles and we must abide by them. In many cases we are not told how the wicked were destroyed. It is just stated that God destroyed them but this is no reason to question the principles that clearly teach that the judgments of God do not come dirrectly out from the Lord upon the wicked. sky

Richard:I could say the same about you. You have set yourself up as the only one having any light on this subject, instead of letting people study and decide for themselves. It's either the Sky way or the highway. You would do well to heed the words of caution from Twilight on this matter.

I agree with both of you. I think you're both "heavy-handed," if that's the right term. Not just you two, either. It's a common trait on forums such as this.

I hope I'm not coming off as two heavy-handed myself. I try not to, but it's certainly easy to fall into, especially on a medium such as this where you can't hear a person's tone of voice or see their body language.

I agree completely with the sentiment that we should let people study and decide for themselves. That goes along with the concept of free will, and agrees with how God Himself deals with us. He doesn't overwhelm us with evidence, but gives us enough evidence for us to study one, and come to conclusions.

Another thing to bear in mind is that we're dealing with completely different paradigms here. That is, our whole perspective of things, what Jesus Christ referred to as "wineskines" (as in, you can't put new wine into an old wineskin) is involved when we attempt to interpret Scripture. We look at things differently, and see things differently, so need a lot of patience in dealing with others, as the other person simply isn't seeing the same thing we do.

There's a lot of things involved when dealing with spiritual subjects! We can all do with more patience and understanding.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Removing Gods active participation from the destruction of the wicked, means that God can "never" act against sin.

There's another possibility, and that is that God active participation has been involved all along to prevent His glory (which is His character) from destroying those who sin, and God simply quits preventing this from happening. If we look at DA 764, this seems to be precisely what's being described.

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

Note it says that had God *left* Satan to reap the full results of his sin, he would have perished. If *God* was the cause of Satan's destruction, it would hardly make sense to say that would be leaving Satan to reap the full result of his sin.

Therefore God does something to prevent the destruction which sin causes, the "inevitable result of sin," to take place until His strange act at the final judgment, where He permits this to happen.

There's another possibility, and that is that God active participation has been involved all along to prevent His glory (which is His character) from destroying those who sin, and God simply quits preventing this from happening. If we look at DA 764, this seems to be precisely what's being described.

I have no issue with that.

But the Glory of God is described as a physical event.

How else can we account for fire coming down from heaven?

Mark

Goes back to watching.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard

sky:I have been observing you Richard. From what I can see, what you are doing is instead of accepting the statements which clearly establish how the language of the Bible is to be understood or interpreted when it comes to God punishing or destroying sinners, you choose to totally disregard that and then quote one passage of Scripture after another to support your view without taking into account the very inspired statements that explain that language. The Lord has given us the principles and we must abide by them. In many cases we are not told how the wicked were destroyed. It is just stated that God destroyed them but this is no reason to question the principles that clearly teach that the judgments of God do not come dirrectly out from the Lord upon the wicked. sky

Richard:I could say the same about you. You have set yourself up as the only one having any light on this subject, instead of letting people study and decide for themselves. It's either the Sky way or the highway. You would do well to heed the words of caution from Twilight on this matter.

I agree with both of you. I think you're both "heavy-handed," if that's the right term. Not just you two, either. It's a common trait on forums such as this.

I hope I'm not coming off as two heavy-handed myself. I try not to, but it's certainly easy to fall into, especially on a medium such as this where you can't hear a person's tone of voice or see their body language.

I agree completely with the sentiment that we should let people study and decide for themselves. That goes along with the concept of free will, and agrees with how God Himself deals with us. He doesn't overwhelm us with evidence, but gives us enough evidence for us to study one, and come to conclusions.

Another thing to bear in mind is that we're dealing with completely different paradigms here. That is, our whole perspective of things, what Jesus Christ referred to as "wineskines" (as in, you can't put new wine into an old wineskin) is involved when we attempt to interpret Scripture. We look at things differently, and see things differently, so need a lot of patience in dealing with others, as the other person simply isn't seeing the same thing we do.

There's a lot of things involved when dealing with spiritual subjects! We can all do with more patience and understanding.

Words of wisdom.

[skyblue888]

Just because I have said that the reason why many can't see their way through is because they refuse to believe the clearest and simplest declarations of Holy Writ or of the SoP does not mean that I am being unloving or impatient. If I were unloving or impatient I would have left a long time ago. My point is that if we refuse to accept and apply the principles which God has clearly revealed to us to help us understand and interpret the language of the Bible correctly as to what the Bible means when it says that God destroys sinners or that He sends fire from heaven upon the wicked, or that He hardens the hearts of men, or that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have a love of the truth, or that He even sends evil spirits, or fiery serpents, etc it will make it impossible for us to present the character of God so that the people will not see Him in a false light.

There is no room for speculation here. That is why the Lord has made Himself so clear that there is no excuse for anyone not to understand these principles since they are stated so clearly. I have quoted these principles and I will quote them again. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, persistenly resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is no power left to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36

These principles are always true. They are the everlasting truth, and if we happen to interpret the Scriptures in a way that would contradict these revealed principles, then we may know that we are misrepresenting God and His ways of punishing and destroying. Thus we are misrepresenting the character of God. Thats all there is to it, whether we are guilty of doing it or not.

sky

I do not have to apologize for having stated this truth.

[teresaq]

In all of this Sky, you will not find much disagreement.

This is not the issue.

The issue is Gods final act, not the acts that have gone before.

The Bible and SOP clearly state that God will destroy sin and sinners with His Glory.

That this "strange act" is a strange act because it "appears" to be out of character.

So out of character that some cannot accept it...

Rather they try to deny this will happen.

But the only statement I can find on how Satan will be destroyed (aside from a murky aside to the Prince of Tyrus), the only statement that is explicit and clear in the Bible and SOP is the same one, the same principle.

That God destroys with His revealed Glory.

Do you realise you are presenting something contradictory to this?

You are stating that this is not true?

What if it is?

What if you are stating dogmatically that Gods character is one way, when in fact it is not?

Should we not be cautious when such clear statements as the above are challenging our view?

Should we not be cautious that we are misrepresenting God.

For me, the only clear path that makes it all fit together is the destruction by the revealing of His Glory.

Now if that misrepresents Him in any way, if that differs from the counsel of inspiration in any way, then Lord forgive my ignorance.

But I really cannot see how your position is correct, it seems a square peg in a round hole.

Not matter how hard you bash the peg to make it fit, it is always going to be a square peg in a round hole.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That God destroys with His revealed Glory.

That statement would be much easier to understand if it actually said something like. "Gods glory blew them up, and they didn't do it to themselves."

You seem to be a bit bias to one view. Like I mentioned earlier. The English language allows to see that as "Gods glory causes them to freak out and kill themselves." It also allows me to see it the way you are seeing it too. I wish it were a bit more specific.

When it says that God is to them a consuming fire. Actually let me try and give an example: Keish to me is a consuming fire, it is disgusting and I would avoid it like I would avoid a consuming fire.

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God…. {DD 16.5}

His voice sounded like a trumpet through the temple. The displeasure of His countenance seemed like consuming fire. With authority He commanded, "Take these things hence." John 2:16. {DA 590.4}

But after his sin, he could no longer find joy in holiness, and he sought to hide from the presence of God.

Such is still the condition of the unrenewed heart.

It is not in harmony with God, and finds no joy in communion with Him.

The sinner could not be happy in God's presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings.

Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him.

The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there --every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love --would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to those that actuate the sinless dwellers there.

He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place of torture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy.

It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship.

The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire.

They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. {SC 17.2}

[teresaq]

It is not so much I am biased Lutz.

If it was clearly evident that man destroys Satan, from scripture, I would accept that.

But the only explanation that fits all the puzzle is the one that is plain.

Think about this:

The Father shrouds Himself.

If man looks upon God He would die, if in His sinful state, Gods Glory would consume Him (how that happens I would not dare to guess).

The prophets would all fall down at the site of the Lamb being revealed to them (Isaiah, John etc).

The destruction of the wicked is a physical event.

The fire that destroys Satan is a physical event.

Gods Glory destroys Satan.

Gods Glory is revealed as a physical event.

Gods Glory destroys sin and sinnners.

Now I do not for one moment even begin to pretend to understand all that.

But I accept it by faith.

[Guest]

Sky, here is some evidence where Ellen White says the opposite of what you are trying to say with the quotes you use, most of which apply to everyday life and not the final judgment.

Here she is specifically referring to the final judgment of God on the wicked. Except for the one quote about the flood.

their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

The rocks are among the precious things of earth, containing treasures of wisdom and knowledge. In the rocks and mountains are registered the fact that God did destroy the wicked from off the earth by a flood. {OHC 252.2}

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. {EW 54}

God's anger will not cease until He has caused this land of light to drink the dregs of the cup of His fury, until He has rewarded unto Babylon double. Reward her even as she rewarded you, double unto her double according to her works; in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double." {EW 275.2}

But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death.

Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy {GC 544}

"Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that "shall burn as an oven." Malachi 4:1. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein are burned up. (2 Peter 3:10.) The fire of Tophet is prepared for the king, the chief of rebellion; the pile thereof is deep and large, and "the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." Isaiah 30:33. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men --"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {SR 428}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds. The sins of the righteous have been transferred to Satan, the originator of evil, who must bear their penalty. [sEE FOOTNOTE P. 403.] Thus he is made to suffer, not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The justice of God is satisfied, and the saints and all the angelic host say with a loud voice, Amen. {SR 429.1}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. {GC 672}

Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent... CET 187.4}

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. {GC88 605.1}

God means just what He says. Man has interposed between God and the people, and the Lord has sent forth the third angel with the message: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Verses 9, 10. {8T 94.3}

You are also at odds with SDA Fundamental Belief #27

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard

He's been angry before. But his anger has always been mixed with mercy in the past.

You're understanding the judgment in terms of God's being angry? The overriding emotion in the judgment is not anger, but sadness.

[teresaq]

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression,"

Sky, you have taken this one statement and declared that this is to be the foundation of how we view all other quotes and texts to the contrary on this topic.

Ellen White did not say "this is the foundation we are to use when studying the destruction of the wicked" Sky did.

In fact if you read just a little further on from where this quote is found you will see this:

Christ has declared that he will come the second time, to gather his faithful ones to himself: “Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.]

Can you not see what you are doing here? This isolated quote is not the foundation of this topic just because you say it is. It does not trump all the many other Ellen White quotes on this topic, and all the scripture given on this just because you think it should.

Are we not supposed to go with the weight of evidence?

[John317]

would you say the flaming sword is symbolic or literal?

The garden was literal.

God literally "drove out" the man and his wife.

The Cherubims were/are literal.

The tree of life was/is literal.

The sword was literal.

Being literal does not prevent them from having profound symbolic meaning. The Bible is full of literal things that are also symbols. Examples: the cross, Egypt, death, the Jordan, the Promised Land, the Sabbath, etc.

[teresaq]

All these statements when read in context are not talking about the final destruction.

This one is, along with many more like it.

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

You have to make sure the quote is talking about the very thing you are trying to prove, and not take it out of context, which is what you have done over and over.

[teresaq]

Sky, here is some evidence where Ellen White says the opposite of what you are trying to say with the quotes you use, most of which apply to everyday life and not the final judgment.

Here she is specifically referring to the final judgment of God on the wicked. Except for the one quote about the flood.

their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of his glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC88 37.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

The rocks are among the precious things of earth, containing treasures of wisdom and knowledge. In the rocks and mountains are registered the fact that God did destroy the wicked from off the earth by a flood. {OHC 252.2}

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the execution of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. {EW 54}

God's anger will not cease until He has caused this land of light to drink the dregs of the cup of His fury, until He has rewarded unto Babylon double. Reward her even as she rewarded you, double unto her double according to her works; in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double." {EW 275.2}

But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death.

Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy {GC 544}

"Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that "shall burn as an oven." Malachi 4:1. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein are burned up. (2 Peter 3:10.) The fire of Tophet is prepared for the king, the chief of rebellion; the pile thereof is deep and large, and "the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it." Isaiah 30:33. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men --"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {SR 428}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds. The sins of the righteous have been transferred to Satan, the originator of evil, who must bear their penalty. [sEE FOOTNOTE P. 403.] Thus he is made to suffer, not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The justice of God is satisfied, and the saints and all the angelic host say with a loud voice, Amen. {SR 429.1}

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them. {GC 668.2}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. {GC 672}

Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent, and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {CET 187.3}

When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent... CET 187.4}

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. {GC88 605.1}

God means just what He says. Man has interposed between God and the people, and the Lord has sent forth the third angel with the message: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Verses 9, 10. {8T 94.3}

You are also at odds with SDA Fundamental Belief #27

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

the part in red refers to the second coming, which is easy to check.

the fundamental beliefs are but an outline, and sky is not at odds with our pioneers.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

would you say the flaming sword is symbolic or literal?

The garden was literal.

God literally "drove out" the man and his wife.

The Cherubims were/are literal.

The tree of life was/is literal.

The sword was literal.

Being literal does not prevent them from having profound symbolic meaning. The Bible is full of literal things that are also symbols. Examples: the cross, Egypt, death, the Jordan, the Promised Land, the Sabbath, etc.

This is true.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

would you say the flaming sword is symbolic or literal?

The garden was literal.

God literally "drove out" the man and his wife.

The Cherubims were/are literal.

The tree of life was/is literal.

The sword was literal.

Being literal does not prevent them from having profound symbolic meaning. The Bible is full of literal things that are also symbols. Examples: the cross, Egypt, death, the Jordan, the Promised Land, the Sabbath, etc.

[teresaq]

if there are non-sdas watching this discussion they would get the idea that the "wages of sin is..."burning in hellfire, tho of shorter duration, instead of death as the bible states.

The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death, a death that lasts forever, where there is no hope of a resurrection, and then the wrath of God will be appeased." {16MR 35.1}

[pnattmbtc]

Just because I have said that the reason why many can't see their way through is because they refuse to believe the clearest and simplest declarations of Holy Writ or of the SoP does not mean that I am being unloving or impatient. If I were unloving or impatient I would have left a long time ago. My point is that if we refuse to accept and apply the principles which God has clearly revealed to us to help us understand and interpret the language of the Bible correctly as to what the Bible means when it says that God destroys sinners or that He sends fire from heaven upon the wicked, or that He hardens the hearts of men, or that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have a love of the truth, or that He even sends evil spirits, or fiery serpents, etc it will make it impossible for us to present the character of God so that the people will not see Him in a false light.

There is no room for speculation here. That is why the Lord has made Himself so clear that there is no excuse for anyone not to understand these principles since they are stated so clearly. I have quoted these principles and I will quote them again. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown. The Spirit of God, persistenly resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is no power left to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36

These principles are always true. They are the everlasting truth, and if we happen to interpret the Scriptures in a way that would contradict these revealed principles, then we may know that we are misrepresenting God and His ways of punishing and destroying. Thus we are misrepresenting the character of God. Thats all there is to it, whether we are guilty of doing it or not.

sky

I do not have to apologize for having stated this truth.

One can state truth in different ways. For example, one can do so while being charitable to one who has a different point of view.

Consider for a moment the character of the One whom you are presenting. Your argument is that it would be contrary to God's character to destroy, isn't it? That He's like Jesus Christ was, in the flesh, who fully revealed the Father? Who was kind and gentle with all He met, never using force, who voice had tears in it in the few times He was constrained to speak strongly?

It this is our view of God, it behooves us to treat others in according to our view of God, whom we believe doesn't use force.

[teresaq]

One can state truth in different ways. For example, one can do so while being charitable to one who has a different point of view.

Consider for a moment the character of the One whom you are presenting. Your argument is that it would be contrary to God's character to destroy, isn't it? That He's like Jesus Christ was, in the flesh, who fully revealed the Father? Who was kind and gentle with all He met, never using force, who voice had tears in it in the few times He was constrained to speak strongly?

It this is our view of God, it behooves us to treat others in according to our view of God, whom we believe doesn't use force.

well, i, for one, am very disappointed and discouraged in the feelings i have much of the time.

some would call it "righteous indignation" and at one time i did also. now i call it demonic.

i would give anything to have those "tears in (my) voice" when responding.