Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

It is the only solution for a human such as yourself. You are bringing God down to your ways.

It's what the Bible and Ellen White say. If that's bringing God down to human level then I don't know what to tell you.

in truth it is some how understand it to say while others understand it differently.

we do need to be careful that we are not dictating how the scriptures are to be interpreted as a certain institution does, right?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

And burning people alive for not following you takes away from freedom of choice. It turns it into a follow me or I'll kill you. It makes it seem as if we're Gods captives.[/quote']

Please explain how it looks any better if the person says he will not burn you alive but that he will allow a rabid dog eat you for not following him. Or maybe he will allow a mob of criminals beat you to death or blow you to bits? How does this change anything and make you less of a "captive"?

It seems to me that this is what is being said by those who insist that it's better if God doesn't destroy the wicked but that He allows the wicked to kill each other by mass murder.

since i know for a fact that no one has said that, unless a post can be provided that i overlooked, nor that it is believed, i cant understand how you have come to that conclusion.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Lutz

And burning people alive for not following you takes away from freedom of choice. It turns it into a follow me or I'll kill you. It makes it seem as if we're Gods captives.

The people who will be lost are those who have trampled through the blood of Jesus Christ and spat in his face at every turn. He has gone out of his way to save them, and they simply refuse to the very end. So how can you even say something like that Lutz?

and then He says in effect, ok now the "turn the other cheek" is repealed...

[Guest]

Yes!! Or let sin go on forever!

[teresaq]

Lutz13, Are you trying to understand it, or make it fit your understanding. We dare not sit in judgment on God. If God says He is the one who executes the wicked, we dare not say the Satan does it.

this is starting to sound very much like a certain institution who has decided how the bible is to be read and no one better deviate from that.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Lutz

Such as when God said that He would cause adversity in David's house. That He would cause David's neighbour to take his wives in front of all Israel. Yet we can know that God didn't actually do it, but allowed sin to run its course without intervening. Gods fault? Or David's?

You are taking a chapter out of the middle of the book, and saying: "This is the way it must be at the end also". But it isn't so. That's where you go wrong.

as you see it, right?

in the end God knows....

[Woody]

Quote:

we do need to be careful that we are not dictating how the scriptures are to be interpreted as a certain institution does, right?

Excellent point Teresaq

[wayfinder]

When God is quoted by Isaiah in 1:18, He is not saying to Israel, ok so you don't like doing things My way, lets sit down and you tell Me what you want to do and I will tell you what My expectations are and we can work out some compromise. No God is saying sit down listen to my plans for you and know that I love you and...

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

[Guest]

When God is quoted by Isaiah in 1:18, He is not saying to Israel, ok so you don't like doing things My way, lets sit down and you tell Me what you want to do and I will tell you what My expectations are and we can work out some compromise. No God is saying sit down listen to my plans for you and know that I love you and...

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Amen

[epaminondas]

And burning people alive for not following you takes away from freedom of choice. It turns it into a follow me or I'll kill you. It makes it seem as if we're Gods captives.

Yep, that's about it. You don't seem to realise, God made the universe, we are in the universe. He allows us freedom of choice within limits - if you decide to flap your arms and fly away you will find you are not free to do so. This freedom seems to be mainly there for us to choose whether we accept God as our creator and follow Him, or reject Him. On this choice God won't force your hand. If God made the universe, it's only fair that He makes the rules for His universe. So if He says "listen and obey", it's listen and obey. Something to do with obedience being more desirable to God than offerings, remember?

Eli got it when Samuel told him prospects for his family were grim. Eli said: "He is God, He can do what He wants to do." Job got the message of the whole book of Job, which is "who are you to question Me?" In a nutshell, Job's reply was "yes, indeed, who am I to question You. Sorry, I did not know my place. I won't do it again."

What will you do if your hamster starts to know better than you and question everything you do or say? Bet he will end up, if he's lucky, with your friendly vet, senor doctor muerte. Otherwise you'll feed him to the cat. And we can't even create hamsters or anything of significance, like a planet. Now as for God...

[LifeHiscost]

This again brings out that force is not a principle of God's government. It's a principle of the enemy, not of God, and whenever one sees coercion of any form whatsoever, whether by violence, or by trying to beat someone over the head verbally, or argumentatively, one can be sure that it is not a principle of the kingdom of God that is being exhibited.

In your eyes then, would you say that the war in heaven was a contingent plan which developed to the point that Lucifer and those he deceived, willingly walked out the door opened to him and all willingly restricted themselves to this earth, as indicated by these words;

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Revelation 12:9 NKJV

Regards!

[Guest]

Excellent point Life.

[LifeHiscost]

God is love! sky

Love does not allow that which is mortal take the lives of His children while He looks on unperturbed at the slaughter.

"Then the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead."Isaiah 37:36 NKJV

When humans hire someone or ask someone to kill another, even if the man asked is caught in the planning, the perpetrator and the one setting the plan in motion is tried and if convicted, both suffer the penalty. What would you expect might be our assessment of what is revealed above, and how might love be involved in this disturbing reality?

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

And burning people alive for not following you takes away from freedom of choice. It turns it into a follow me or I'll kill you. It makes it seem as if we're Gods captives.

The solution to that is this.

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"Joshua 24:15

AMP

Do you think that those who chose to jump out of the World Trade Center before their collapse, were killed by God when they reached the bottom of their fall?

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Lutz

I used to say that too. But deep down inside I was afraid of Him.

Maybe you weren't living right or something. I don't know. But God dosn't want me to be afraid, and I'm not.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."1 John 4:18 NKJV

And since my love is not perfect, I trust in Jesus love to cast out the fear that could exist. Two promises cover it all.

"In the time I am afraid, I will trust in Thee." Psalm 56:3 21st Century KJV

"He will not be afraid of evil tidings;His heart is steadfast, trusting in the LORD."Psalm 112:7 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

but for the constant love and protection of God here we are.

Amen! And some see no limit to that protection. However the flood adequately reveals there is a limit to God's allowances of evil to reign.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

this is starting to sound very much like a certain institution who has decided how the bible is to be read and no one better deviate from that.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

What we believe is not what determines Truth. But if we believe a falsehood, it could be very difficult for us to maintain a consistent relationship with Jesus.

As I understand the Scriptures, we will not be saved by our knowledge.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known."1 Corinthians 13:12 21st Century KJV

"One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."Romans 14:5 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Did not the Jews lose their eternal life because they were plagued with a misconception of the character of God? Even John the Baptist expected the Lord to reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire! See D.A.215, end of second parg.

sky

The problem with this then Sky, is that anyone who does not explicitly agree with you on every point is lost.

"They" do not understand the character of God and are lost.

This is a very dangerous attitude, if you are imbibing this.

It is not something Ellen White taught

She taught we are judged by the light we have.

Not by the light someone else thinks we have.

Mark :-)

PS.

I hope I am not misunderstanding you.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

What motivates you? Fear that God will blow you to pieces if you do not follow Him? I do not understand how you cannot fear your version of God. [/quote']

Why would I be afraid of a God who loves me and takes care of me. He has offered me every opportunity not to be lost. Even beyond what would have been fair to me.

God will do his "strange act" because it's the only solution. He has to. And I'm grateful that he will. Would you rather sin be allowed to exist for eternity? Would that be fair to the universe?

What motivates you? Are you saying that if what the Bible says about this is true, then you want nothing more to do with God?

I agree with Richard here.

Just because I believe that God perfoms His strange act, does not mean I serve Him out of fear.

I agree with the need for the strange act.

But I serve Him out of love.

The two points do not necessarily connect.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

And burning people alive for not following you takes away from freedom of choice. It turns it into a follow me or I'll kill you. It makes it seem as if we're Gods captives.

Maybe we are starting from the wrong perspective.

Maybe we should start as the gospel does?

How about this perspective:

"You are lost and headed for destruction. I am going to reveal my glory at some point in the future, and all sin will be destroyed, if you continue in your choices of sin, then you will have to be destroyed. Please accept my offer of a loving relationship and turn, so that you can avoid that fate that your choices have delivered you in to."

[Twilight]

Let none repeat the fearful history of the Jews by rejecting God's truth on this basis. The outworking of such decisions have implications too terrible, final, and eternal to comtemplate. Rather, let there be an earnest, prayerful pleading with the Lord to open the eyes of our spiritual understanding to see God as He really is.

sky

And this is the crux of the matter for me Sky.

If I do not agree with you, and I have studied the claim that Man kills Satan and find no solid evidence for it, only solid evidence that God destroys Him.

Then you will apply the above to me and anyone else that does not think your case is strong enough?

What if I have prayed for spiritual understanding and the "belief" I now have is "the truth".

Does that mean you have not had your eyes opened?

This type of attitude can be prevalent in Adventism.

We should be cautious.

It can arise out of a heart that thinks: "I am right and everyone else is blind".

Fanaticism is formed from a fixed position, where one "principle" is trumpeted as the "all consuming" principle that all others adhere to.

This I fear, is how we can go down that road.

When we allow only one principle to be the foundation of truth.

That is fine, if that is the correct principle to start from.

The correct foundation.

But that is this principle:

"God is love".

Only then can principles be weighed against that foundational principle.

But my fear is, that when we accept: "God does not slay Satan, man does." as our foundational principle, we lose our way.

"God does not slay Satan, man does." Is NOT our foundational principle as a people, it never has been, but it seems here it is trying to take a foothold.

Can you see my points Sky?

In love,

Mark

[Twilight]

Copied from another post:

I think we should take the Bible, let it interpret itself.

Then consider all Ellen White has to say on any sections.

Then come to our conclusions.

I do not think we should take a statement from Ellen White.

Make all other statements subservient to it.

Form a fixed idea from that one statement.

Then figure out how to get the bible to fit that idea. :-)

Mark

[Lutz13]

Well brothers, you are free to believe what you will. God is saving me from self destruction,(sin dwells in me.)not from Him.

Sin is what is destructive. Before sin the universe was at peace. I refuse to believe that Satan taught God how to be a psychotic murderer. The God I have come to love doesn't use force(death threats is force) like the god of this world does.

Anyways, peace.

[Guest]

Why would you say God is a psychotic murderer if he he executes justice?

In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless. {GC 503.2}

The One who has stood as our Intercessor; who hears all penitential prayers and confessions; who is represented with a rainbow, the symbol of grace and love, encircling His head, is soon to cease His work in the heavenly sanctuary. Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. He for whom His people have looked will assume His right--the office of Supreme Judge.--RH Jan. 1, 1889. {LDE 240.3}

[John317]

Sin is what is destructive. Before sin the universe was at peace. I refuse to believe that Satan taught God how to be a psychotic murderer. The God I have come to love doesn't use force(death threats is force) like the god of this world does.

It's this kind of language that makes me have serious doubts about the explanations coming from those who say God does not destroy.

If God actually did destroy the world by the Flood, would it mean to you that He is a "psychotic murderer"?

If God told you that He destroyed the world by a Flood, and that He destroys the wicked at the end of the 1000 years, could you love and worship Him?

Should God tell me that He didn't do those things, and that He doesn't ever destroy, I would still love and worship Him. I would simply ask Him why the Bible was written as it is, but it wouldn't cause me to question God's character.

Please give me your understanding of the events in Numbers 25.