Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

traditionally folks believe you will burn for eternity.

[skyblue888]

and also that the judgments of God come directly out from the Lord upon sinners whether before or after the 1000 years

this is the traditional view Richard and we all know it

[Guest]

It's the Adventist view in FB #27 and it's the Biblical view, and it's Ellen White's view.

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

[Guest]

The more I have studied into it, the more I have seen, that if it came from anywhere else but God, it would not be just.

I think John pointed this out also. You should listen to him. He is a bible scholar of very large proportion.

[skyblue888]

The more I have studied into it, the more I have seen, that if it came from anywhere else but God, it would not be just.

I think John pointed this out also. You should listen to him. He is a bible scholar of very large proportion.

A bible scholar of very large proportion!

wow Richard,

i dont doubt that John is a gentleman and that he is a scholar of very large proportion but that does not do away with the fact that the traditional view of the character of God is that He directly punishes and destroys sinners, that is, He is the executioner of the sentence against transgression, simply because that is the traditional way of misinterpreting the teaching of the Bible concerning God's character, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Here she is not talking about what we are quibbling over. She is talking about the origin of sin. You are trying to apply it to the final destruction at the end, but she is not referring to that. Here is the whole quote.

What difference does this make to the point that ""Tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin."?

I don't understand why one would think this would matter. When the context is important (like GC 614) it's completely ignored; just one sentence is taken of "proof" of a desired position. But when a principle is mentioned, which is not limited to the specific circumstances, such as this one (sure the concept that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin is not limited to the origin of sin) one complains. This is hard to follow.

[pnattmbtc]

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

This is FB 27. I agree with this. I don't understand why one would think this proves the literal fire point of view. It says the same thing Scripture says. The question of the identification of the fire from heaven is as open as it is from Scripture.

[Guest]

The traditional view is that people will burn for eternity. To this very day, that is what the people believe.

EGW was not talking about where the fire comes from in that quote. Context is everything fellas.

In fact she is on record saying over and over that the fire comes from GOD. Why would she do that if she knew that it was false?

Answer: She wouldn't

[skyblue888]

Oh Richard, the everlasting truth is so simple. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. HE DOES NOT Richard! That's simple English. A child can understand this. It is that simple Richard. It is as simple as accepting the alphabet. It is the key to understanding the language of the Bible, for once we accept this principle we can no longer read the Bible the traditional way. This is the "new wine" Richard but we must become new bottles in order to receive it.

"We need to be converted as did the Jews." F.W.77.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Richard, she stated what she saw in vision. In DA 764 she explains what she thought:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

This is describing the very same thing that the parts you quote from EW and GC are. We should have a view of things that harmonizes all the evidence. Not just quote one particular text over and over again that we think says a certain thing. She didn't just write that EW paragraph, or the GC description (which is really the same one). She also wrote things in GC 535-536, GC 541-543, DA 107-108, DA 764 and GC 35-37, to name a few, which should be considered in regards to this subject.

How do we construct a explanation of the judgment which agrees with *all* the evidence? In particular, where in DA 764 is there the idea that the fire which comes from God that destroys the wicked is a literal fire? She says clearly that it is the glory of God, His character of love, which destroys the wicked. In the context, it's clear she's not discussing literal fire at all.

[Guest]

If you can find a quote where she says:

"I was wrong all those times I said the fire comes from God, because it really dosn't"

Then I will help you spread this new message.

[skyblue888]

The Jews in Christ's day did not understand the principle that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression any more than we do today. Even men like Nicodemus, highly honored, did not discern this stupendous truth. Nicodemus was not converted. "Here was a man of high position of trust, a man who was looked up to as one educated in Jewish customs, one whose mind was stored with wisdom. He was indeed in possession of talents of no ordinary character." T.M.367.

And yet Jesus said to him, "You must be born again."

In other words, Nicodemus, "You must have a new heart, or you cannot discern the kingdom of Heaven... Until this change takes place, making all things new, the strongest evidences that could be presented will be useless. The want is in your own heart; everything must be changed, or you cannot see the kingdom of God. This was a very humiliating statement to Nicodemus... He was not spriritually minded enough to discern the meaning of the words of Christ." T.M.368.

Now this:

"The lesson to Nicodemus I present as highly applicable to those who are today in responsible positions as rulers in Israel, and whose voices are often heard in council giving evidence of the same spirit that Nicodemus possessed. Will the lesson given to the chief ruler have the same influence upon their heart and life? Nicodemus was converted as the result of this interview. The words of Christ are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying offcial positions in our institutions... If you have the Holy Spirit molding and fashioning your heart daily, then you will have divine insight to perceive the character of the kingdom of God. T.M.369.

"If one has not a vital connection with God, his own spirit and sentiment will prevail. These may be well represented as strange fire offered in the place of the sacred. Man has woven into the work of God his own defects of character, devices that are human and earthly, delusions ensnaring to himself and to all who accept them." See T.M.371.

"We need to be converted, as did the Jews." F.W.77.

sky

[skyblue888]

The question immediately arises as to how the wicked could suffer exactly according to their desserts unless some intelligence calculates the measure of their individual punishments and so controls events that they will be kept alive until the full punishment has been exacted. On the surface, this would seem to be impossible. Therefore it is considered that God, being the only one with the power to either estimate the deserved chastisement or to control its administration, must surely be the one who executes the sinners in the end.

Anyone who understands and accepts the principles of God's dealing with sin will recognize that there must be another answer. Perhaps it has not yet been revealed. This should not drive us to the conclusion that inasmuch as the real answer is wanting, we have to accept another. One thing must be very clear and it is that God does not execute the sinner, now, or in the past, or ever. It is sin which does that. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

To understand how sin can do this and selectively punish one more than another, requires knowledge of laws which as yet are beyond our ken. One thing we do know however, is that the more sinful a person is, the more desperately he struggles to live in the face of death. The true child of God does not fight the Grim Reaper. He knows that his time has come and that his life is safe in the hands of God. But not so with the rebel against God's laws and government. He resists with all the power of his soul, and is able to prolong his life beyond its natural span.

No one has ben so great a sinner as Satan, and no one will fight the inroads of death with greater determination than he. Thus he will prolong his life far beyond that point where he would have died if he had resigned himself to his fate. In so doing he will extend his suffering until he has suffered for all the sins he has committed and cause others to commit.

Finally it will be all over and the fire which had consumed the wicked will burn up the rubbish and purify the earth.

The deadly experiment will be ended and it will be demonstrated eternally that through it all, God did not change. When sin entered it changed angels, men, the animals, and the operations of nature, but it did not change God. Nothing was introduced into His way after the coming of sin which was not there before. He never destroyed before sin entered, never executed, never punished, and never forced. The entry of sin did not cause Him to begin doing any of these things in order to solve the problems sin imposed upon Him.

Satan and evil angels did their utmost to provoke Him to anger and arise to sweep away the rebellious inhabitants of the earth, but He would not be provoked, angered, insulted, or hurt. He emerges from the whole miserable test as immaculate as He entered it. Satan has not been able to sustain a single point against Him and it is shown that the way of the cross--the power of self-sacrificing love, which serves, no matter what the cost to the server--is stronger than all the ways of force combined.

sky

[John317]

In DA 764 she explains what she thought:

Yes, I think all sides of this discussion agree that the destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God but is the result of the wicked reaping what they have sown.

I see no contradiction between that statement and the statement in Early Writings, pp. 52, 53--

"The saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and METE OUT to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, AND THAT WHICH THEY MUST RECEIVE AT THE EXECUTION OF THE JUDGMENT IS SET OFF AGAINST THEIR NAMES."

Jesus and His people decide how much the wicked must suffer on the basis of their evil deeds. She says that Jesus and the saints together "decide every case according to the deed done in the body" and "mete out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer." EW 290, 291.

First, could you tell what those passages say, and then tell what they mean to you?

What do Jesus and the saints "decide" in regard to the wicked dead?

And what does Mrs. White say they "mete out to the wicked"?

[Twilight]

The traditional view is that people will burn for eternity. To this very day, that is what the people believe.

EGW was not talking about where the fire comes from in that quote. Context is everything fellas.

In fact she is on record saying over and over that the fire comes from GOD. Why would she do that if she knew that it was false?

Answer: She wouldn't

The recurring response to this has been that she did not mean what she said, but the plain english she used meant something entirely the opposite.

Mark

[Twilight]

If you can find a quote where she says:

"I was wrong all those times I said the fire comes from God, because it really dosn't"

Then I will help you spread this new message.

Amen...

[teresaq]

traditionally folks believe you will burn for eternity.

or some variation of that theme.

[teresaq]

I think John pointed this out also. You should listen to him. He is a bible scholar of very large proportion.

We cannot allow these questions to be settled for us by another's mind,

or another's judgment.

We must search the Scriptures carefully with a heart open to the reception of light and the evidences of truth.

We cannot trust the salvation of our souls

to ministers,

to idle traditions,

to human authorities,

or to pretensions.

We must know for ourselves what God has said. ...

It is not to be our study as to what may be the opinion of men,

or of popular faith,

or what the Fathers have said.

We cannot trust to the voice of the multitude,....

We must put away all skepticism,

all exaltation of our own ideas. We must humble our hearts by repentance and with contrition of soul, praying for true enlightenment. We must be diligent and thoughtful. We must be constant learners in the school of Christ, then we shall be meek and lowly of heart as was our Saviour. The Lord positively demands of every Christian an intelligent knowledge of the Scriptures.

He must dig for the truth as he would dig for hid treasures.

He must search the Scriptures, comparing scripture with scripture;

for he must be a laborer together with God.

Individually, we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is God who works in us, and by us, and through us. God's word is the sword of the Spirit, and with a knowledge of revealed truth, which is our spiritual weapon, we must go to work, laboring to pull down the strong-holds of the enemy. The truth must be spoken in love. We must show that we are Christ's followers and that we have learned of Jesus. We must approach the people in the spirit of kindness and affection. {RH, March 8, 1887 par. 1}

I feel deeply the need of our churches' having greater spirituality and more personal piety. ... {RH, March 8, 1887 par. 2}

[skyblue888]

Yes we must approach the people with the spirit of kindness and affection. Jesus approached the people with kindness and affection but when the so-called theologians or the so-called religious leaders would cast their shadow between the people and the heaven-sent light, with tears in His voice He rebuked them severely.

sky

[Guest]

I don't look to John for understanding, it's just that on this, he happens to be right.

[John317]

One thing we do know however, is that the more sinful a person is, the more desperately he struggles to live in the face of death. The true child of God does not fight the Grim Reaper. He knows that his time has come and that his life is safe in the hands of God. But not so with the rebel against God's laws and government. He resists with all the power of his soul, and is able to prolong his life beyond its natural span.

No one has ben so great a sinner as Satan, and no one will fight the inroads of death with greater determination than he. Thus he will prolong his life far beyond that point where he would have died if he had resigned himself to his fate. In so doing he will extend his suffering until he has suffered for all the sins he has committed and cause others to commit.

This ignores and contradicts the statement in Early Writings that the saints and Jesus decide and "mete out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer, according to their works." EW 290, 291 (Also see pp. 52, 53)

This is saying that the amount of suffering the wicked experience is not left to the wicked to decide but is decided upon by Jesus and the saints, and is "meted out" after a careful examination of the lives of each individual. They decide that Satan MUST suffer much more than those whom he has deceived.

It seems to me that if the English language means anything, this is what it is saying.

Your view would mean that if only the wicked accept their fate, they would not suffer. That makes it sound (at least to me) that the wicked will cease to suffer the moment they acknowledge they deserve to die. But according to Ellen White, the wicked suffer in order to satisfy the demands of God's justice and His law.

She wrote, "After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, [satan] is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch-- Satan the root, his followers the branches. THE FULL PENALTY OF THE LAW HAS BEEN VISITED; THE DEMANDS OF JUSTICE HAVE BEEN MET; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

"..... Now God's creatures are forever delivered from [satan's] presence and temptations. 'The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they [the righteous] break forth into singing.' Is. 14: 7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. 'The voice of a great multitude,' 'as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,' is heard, saying: 'Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.' Rev. 19: 6." GC 673

[skyblue888]

John, I will agree to say that this is something we do not fully understand today. But I refuse to believe that God will be the executioner of the sentence against transgression at that time because He has clearly stated that He is not.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Me:In DA 764 she explains what she thought:

EGW:This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.(DA 764)

J:Yes, I think all sides of this discussion agree that the destruction of the wicked is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God but is the result of the wicked reaping what they have sown.

[pnattmbtc]

John317, in regards to your meeting out question, I wrote this:

Quote:

I don't believe this is an arbitrary action on their part. I believe their suffering is caused by their sin. DA 764 explains that God will give them up to the result of their choice. *Their* choice. They suffer because of what *they* have chosen. Not what God or someone else chooses. If we chose, they wouldn't suffer at all. If you, God forbid, had a loved one (spouse, child, close friend), you would look over their lives, and sentence your spouse, child, friend to be set on fire for 35 hours? You could to that?

My apologies if I'm misrepresenting your view (I hope I am!). That's not my intention, but this is what I'm hearing you say.