Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[pnattmbtc]

After all, God loves us far more than we love ourselves.

Or, more to the point, than we love our loved ones. Would we set them on fire to punish them?

I'd really like to understand this point better. I don't want to be misrepresenting anyone's idea, but I'm getting conflicting ideas as to what is being said in regards to the wicked being set on fire. Is it:

1.The wicked spontaneously erupt into flames in God's presence, and they burn like a torch.

2.God zaps them from heaven with something akin to a lightening bolt that sets them on fire, and they burn like a torch.

3.God casts them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava.

The job of the righteous is to decide how long they should be shrieking in agony will either burning like a torch, or swimming in molten lava. And this is justice?

I really hope I'm missing something here, but it 1, 2, or 3 the idea being presented? Or is it something else?

Looking for feedback please. How are the wicked set on fire?

(I reposted this, as I didn't see that it was responded to. My apologies if I missed a response).

[LifeHiscost]

I don't understand why people keep trying to see God as doing what a human might do or think. His ways and thoughts are far beyond what human ways and thoughts are. We can no more understand God than an ant can understand the concept of physics. IMHO

Do you feel Jesus' coming to this earth didn't reveal any understanding about our Father in heaven?

"Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."John 14:8-10 NKJV

"No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you."John 15:15 NKJV

Blessings!

[John317]

[LifeHiscost]

I submit that the decision as to who is destroyed quickly and who suffers many days, is determined by the saints in unison with Jesus during the 1000 years. This is the only way to assure that justice is done.

Totally agree with your submission, John317, and allow that it is the only way the decisions can be non-arbitrary while allowing free will, which I believe determines where we will spend eternity.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:32 NKJV

Good show!

[LifeHiscost]

I hope sky or anyone who believes the wicked are destroyed by human weapons and by murder, replies to each of the the four points.

As to the cooperative decisions between Jesus and the saints in heaven during the 1,000 years, makes the most of the relationship between Jesus and those who will reign with Him.

"...those...who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."Revelation 20:4 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Do you agree that the sentence of eternal death is pronounced by God and that this is a "punishment"?

"And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me.

Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life."Matthew 25:45-46 AMP Brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

And that is besides the angels that we get to judge- 1 Cor.6:3

My wife, who probably has a heart as tender as you would be able to find anywhere, does not look forward to "get to judge".

And I do believe I feel the same way, especially when those who we loved on this earth, stand front and center.

I cannot imagine the depth of sorrow in the heart of the Lord of glory, when He pronounces the judgment of the lost for the last time, against those He created to spend eternity with Himself.

This is not meant to be an aspersion against the reality you've described, Gail, for it is the truth.

"

For the LORD shall rise up as in Mount Perazim; He shall be wroth as in the Valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work, and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

And that is besides the angels that we get to judge- 1 Cor.6:3

My wife, who probably has a heart as tender as you would be able to find anywhere, does not look forward to "get to judge".

And I do believe I feel the same way, especially when those who we loved on this earth, stand front and center.

I cannot imagine the depth of sorrow in the heart of the Lord of glory, when He pronounces the judgment of the lost for the last time, against those He created to spend eternity with Himself.

This is not meant to be an aspersion against the reality you've described, Gail, for it is the truth.

Thanks, LHC, for I meant it just as you described in your last sentence. I don't know of anyone who is looking forward to that event, although if a person has questions that would be the place to get answers.

[LifeHiscost]

The only joy will be because the universe will once again be completely at peace and in harmony with God.

Amen!

[LifeHiscost]

Also She is mainly referring to the conception that the world has, not the church.

Complete agreement and grateful for the clarification.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

The more I have studied into it, the more I have seen, that if it came from anywhere else but God, it would not be just.

I think John pointed this out also. You should listen to him. He is a bible scholar of very large proportion.

Words of Wisdom. Only the one's motivated by love would be willing to entrust the disposition of all involved in creation, to the One Who is Love, without equivocation. Even if we were to consider that we ourselves could or would be barred from paradise.

"Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”" Daniel 3:16-18 NKJV

Our conception of what our Father decides for us, along with the lost, reveals whether we trust the revelation of His eternal will

of all involved in the plan of salvation.

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The more I have studied into it, the more I have seen, that if it came from anywhere else but God, it would not be just.

I think John pointed this out also. You should listen to him. He is a bible scholar of very large proportion.

Words of Wisdom. Only the one's motivated by love would be willing to entrust the disposition of all involved in creation, to the One Who is Love, without equivocation. Even if we were to consider that we ourselves could or would be barred from paradise.

"Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”" Daniel 3:16-18 NKJV

Our conception of what our Father decides for us, along with the lost, reveals whether we trust the revelation of His eternal will

of all involved in the plan of salvation.

Blessings!

And only God would be able to mete out justice and just judgement.

I would not want it in the hands of murderers and fallen angels.

[LifeHiscost]

And only God would be able to mete out justice and just judgement.

I would not want it in the hands of murderers and fallen angels.

Blessings!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

After all, God loves us far more than we love ourselves.

Or, more to the point, than we love our loved ones. Would we set them on fire to punish them?

In heaven, the saved will examine the lives of all who are lost, including their loved ones. According to the Bible and Ellen White, the saints and Christ will judge impartially. This results in the destruction of the wicked. Jesus pronounces the sentence of death upon the wicked, and it is a sentence that all the righteous agree with.

Would Noah have sent a flood to destroy the people he knew and loved? Clearly it is not a sentence that Noah would have enjoyed seeing happen, but we may be sure that Noah agreed with God.

In the same way, the righteous won't enjoy sentencing the wicked to suffer the punishment for their sins, and the suffering of the people they knew certainly won't give them pleasure, yet it is something they do in unison with Jesus Christ because they know that God's law and justice demand it, and they want the universe to be once again in complete harmony with God. Their rejoicing at the end is not because God's creatures suffered or were destroyed, but that God's righteousness has triumphed and sin, suffering and death no longer exist. Read GC 673

Would I personally set my loved ones on fire? I assume you're asking if I would do it in my present mental and spiritual condition. The answer is no. But then I don't hate sin to the extent that God does and I don't see just how evil and terrible sin really is. But the righteous during the 1000 years will think differently about sin after they have all the information about sin that God gives them. They will see how much it cost God and how destructive it was to so many billions of people. All of this will help the righteous to see sin as God sees it, which we clearly do not do at the present.

When we do see sin as God see its it, I believe we will be willing to die rather than bring sin back into the universe. And if we feel that way because of our hatred for sin, we would certainly be willing to see our loved ones be punished for their evil deeds rather than continue the cycle of sin and death.

I hope this answers your question on this point. Let me know if it doesn't and I'll do my best to try to explain more clearly.

Quote:

I'd really like to understand this point better. I don't want to be misrepresenting anyone's idea, but I'm getting conflicting ideas as to what is being said in regards to the wicked being set on fire.

It is just exactly what both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy say: "Fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes" Satan and all the wicked. Rev. 20: 9. Compare the fire that the Bible says came from God to consume the alters Elijah built. We all agree (I assume) that this fire really did come from God. Notice how similar the expression in 1 Kings 18: 38 is to that found in Rev. 20: 9. Also, are we to suppose that God was displeased with the actions of Elijah in killing the prophets of Baal? And does the fact that they were killed mean that God got pleasure from their deaths? No, of course not.

The same fire that destroys the wicked also purifies the earth. The fire originates with God. According to Ellen White (as well as the Bible), the wicked suffer according to the deeds done in the body, and this is decided upon by the saints, in unison with Jesus, after a close examination of the lives of the wicked.

People may not like what Inspiration teaches on this subject, but this is clearly the teaching of revelation.

Quote:

Is it:

1.The wicked spontaneously erupt into flames in God's presence, and they burn like a torch.

2.God zaps them from heaven with something akin to a lightening bolt that sets them on fire, and they burn like a torch.

3.God casts them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava.

When God reveals His full glory, all who have sin in their lives will be destroyed. Sin cannot exist in the presence of God. Therefore, the wicked will be destroyed by their own choice to reject God's offer of salvation.

The Scriptures say that fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked, and it also says that "anyone whose name was not fund written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20: 9, 15.

I'm OK with those expressions and have no need to change them or make them appear differently. If that is how the prophets of God express it, I believe we can express it the same way. I don't believe the Bible is making God look evil when it puts it in this language. The prophets weren't wrong. I believe God had the Bible written in that way for a good purpose.

When I give Bible studies on the destruction of the wicked, I make sure that people understand God's infinite love, and that God gets no pleasure from the death of the wicked. However, I don't try to change what the texts on the subject actually say. I don't tell people, "It says the fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked, but that is not really what happens. What actually happens is...." and then give them my interpretation or opinion. I let the Bible speak, even though we may not like it.

Quote:

The job of the righteous is to decide how long they should be shrieking in agony will either burning like a torch, or swimming in molten lava. And this is justice?

Both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy make it plain that the death of the wicked, together with Satan, is "punishment." They receive what they deserve because of their evil deeds. I deserve the same punishment, but I've accepted Jesus' punishment in my place. The wicked refuse Jesus' gift of life and therefore God has no choice but to allow the punishment against sin and sinners to fall on the wicked themselves. Not because He loves seeing them hurt but because that is the way God made the universe: that sin must be punished and destroyed.

God might have made the universe in such a way that both good and evil could exist side by side forever, but that's not God's way. God loves righteousness and hates sin. When it says God [Christ] hates sin, it means that God cannot possibly allow it to go on forever but that He is determined to bring it to a complete and utter end, along with anyone who refuses to give it up. That's God's will for the same reason a loving parent will protect its children from poison.

When the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire, they're reaping exactly what they've sown by their choices throughout their lives. God didn't force them to make their choices.

See EW 290, 291 and 52, 53. Ellen White writes that the righteous and Christ decide and "mete out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death." "The book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked." EW 53. Everything is considered in the decision. Again, the wicked deserve their punishment. God does not arbitrarily impose it on them, but it is the result of their choices.

Quote:

My apologies if I missed a response).

No problem. Not too long ago I was able to sit at the computer for many hours at a time and reply almost immediately to all posts, but as much as I'd love to do that again, I can't do it any more.

[Twilight]

I'm OK with those expressions and have no need to change them or make them appear differently. If that is how the prophets of God express it, I believe we can express it the same way. I don't believe the Bible is making God look evil when it puts it in this language. The prophets weren't wrong. I believe God had the Bible written in that way for a good purpose.

When I give Bible studies on the destruction of the wicked, I make sure that people understand God's infinite love, and that God gets no pleasure from the death of the wicked. However, I don't try to change what the texts on the subject actually say. I don't tell people, "It says the fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes the wicked, but that is not really what happens. What actually happens is...." and then give them my interpretation or opinion. I let the Bible speak, even though we may not like it.

Amen. :-)

[John317]

[skyblue888]

So John, just to use a couple of examples, do you mean that you would read them the verse that says that "God slew Saul" but at the same time you would refrain from reading them the verse that says that "Saul took a sword and fell on it," clearly showing that God did not directly execute him but that He left Him to himself to reap that which he had sown, which is in perfect keeping with the inspired statement that He does not stand toward the sinner as the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Why would you not use that opportunity to explain to them that the Lord had no choice but to withdraw His Spirit from him, and to leave him to himself with no power to control the evil passions of his soul and with no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan? 1 Chronicles 10:14,4.

By not doing so you would lose a golden opportunity to teach them that the language of the Bible is not subject to any private interpretation and that we must let the Word of God be its own interpreter.

And if after you had introduced them to the writings of Mrs. White and they had accepted them as inspired, and they were to ask for help in understanding this verse, "And God hardened Pharaohs's heart," would you not use that golden opportunity to share with them this statement: "It is not God that blinds the eyes of man or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened"" clearly showing that the language of the Bible is not subject to any private interpretation.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Also She is mainly referring to the conception that the world has, not the church.

Complete agreement and grateful for the clarification.

Blessings!

So these words, "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented to the people clothed in the attributes of Satan," do not refer to the Seventh-day Adventist people as a whole but to the world? Is that it?

sky

[John317]

So John, just to use a couple of examples, do you mean that you would read them the verse that says that "God slew Saul" but at the same time you would refrain from reading them the verse that says that "Saul took a sword and fell on it," clearly showing that God did not directly execute him but that He left Him to himself to reap that which he had sown, which is in perfect keeping with the inspired statement that He does not stand toward the sinner as the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Why would you not use that opportunity to explain to them that the Lord had no choice but to withdraw His Spirit from him, and to leave him to himself with no power to control the evil passions of his soul and with no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan? 1 Chronicles 10:14,4.

By not doing so you would lose a golden opportunity to teach them that the language of the Bible is not subject to any private interpretation and that we must let the Word of God be its own interpreter.

And if after you had introduced them to the writings of Mrs. White and they had accepted them as inspired, and they were to ask for help in understanding this verse, "And God hardened Pharaohs's heart," would you not use that golden opportunity to share with them this statement: "It is not God that blinds the eyes of man or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened"" clearly showing that the language of the Bible is not subject to any private interpretation.

We're on the same page as regards those verses as well as the principle that God allows people to reap the consequences of their choices.

Where we differ is on the application of the principle when it comes to events in the Bible, such as the Flood, Sodom, and the final destruction of Satan and the wicked. It seems to me that there are certain emergencies in the universe that occur because of sin when God took/will take extreme measures. God takes these actions even knowing that he's going to be misunderstood by many people. But I don't see any way out of acknowledging that these acts are of God, because I believe the Bible and SOP don't give me any reason to believe they result directly from the activity of Satan. The Bible consistently & often attributes them to God. It is not as if we find verses or passages that explain that Satan was the one who brought the Flood, destroyed Sodom by fire and brimstone, or brings fire down from heaven to destroy himself and his followers. The Bible doesn't present the final destruction as happening due to mass murder or mass suicide or anything but "fire from God out of heaven."

My own conviction is that the fire comes as a result of God's revealing His full glory. (Look at what happened when God allowed even a partial revealing of Christ's divinity to show. John 18: 6.) I believe the Bible teaches that God's glory destroys sin and sinners but that like the fire on Mt. Sinai, it is real fire and it actually burns up the wicked and everything that has resulted from sin. We see this pattern all through the Bible, that fire is associated with God's presence. It is a supernatural fire, but a real fire nevertheless, a fire that puts out heat and burns and kills. Remember, for instance, the cloud of fire that kept the children of Israel warm at night during the wilderness wandering. We know that God (the pre-existent Christ) was in that cloud. Many other examples of fire in association with God might be given.

We also agree that this punishment is not arbitrarily imposed by God but is the direct result of choices people have made during their lives. However, you and I evidently understand the term "arbitrarily" differently as regards the destruction of the wicked.

I don't believe that Jesus and the saints impose an arbitrary punishment on the wicked. It is done according to God's will, and God's will is never arbitrary, even though it may appear that way at times to humans. Consider the fact that Jesus says He comes to repay everyone according to their works, or deeds. That means the rewards are not arbitrary. It's according to God's law that says we reap what we sow. The righteous, together with Jesus, spend 1000 years going over the records of the lives of the wicked in order to be fair and just in their sentence. To me this does not sound like something that is arbitrary.

Would you agree with me that Satan and the wicked are far more likely-- even guaranteed-- to cause the suffering to be arbitrary? Whereas we can be absolutely certain, can't we, that God would be fair and loving in His decisions about these thing. God wouldn't cause any unnecessary suffering, but we know from Satan's past that he would cause as much suffering as possible, far more than people deserve. Ellen White says God will destroy some people as in a moment, but I'm afraid that if Satan is in charge, he will see to it as no one dies quickly or painlessly. Would this be justice? I'm sure you agree it wouldn't be. Yet how would this be avoided if the destruction of the wicked is under the control of the wicked and Satan?

By the way, I had an aunt who said she left the church and even rejected the Bible because of the verse which says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Her mother-- my grandmother-- was an SDA Bible Worker for many years (from about 1910 to 1940) and explained the verse clearly to my aunt. She gave the same explanation you give here, which of course I believe.

[Guest]

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Is this your explanation of EW 52, 53, 290, 292:

"I understand this to mean the evidence will be examined, and the righteous will see what the wicked will suffer when they are resurrected. I don't understand this to be speaking of an arbitrary punishment imposed against the wicked."

[/quote']

That was a part of it. I also wrote a couple of posts on paradigms with you in mind (i.e., your question prompted me).

Probably the paradigm posts bring out the most important ideas I had.

[Guest]

We're on the same page as regards those verses as well as the principle that God allows people to reap the consequences of their choices.

Where we differ is on the application of the principle when it comes to events in the Bible, such as the Flood, Sodom, and the final destruction of Satan and the wicked. It seems to me that there are certain emergencies in the universe that occur because of sin when God took/will take extreme measures. God takes these actions even knowing that he's going to be misunderstood by many people. But I don't see any way out of acknowledging that these acts are of God, because I believe the Bible and SOP don't give me any reason to believe they result directly from the activity of Satan. The Bible consistently & often attributes them to God. It is not as if we find verses or passages that explain that Satan was the one who brought the Flood, destroyed Sodom by fire and brimstone, or brings fire down from heaven to destroy himself and his followers. The Bible doesn't present the final destruction as happening due to mass murder or mass suicide or anything but "fire from God out of heaven."

My own conviction is that the fire comes as a result of God's revealing His full glory. (Look at what happened when God allowed even a partial revealing of Christ's divinity to show. John 18: 6.) I believe the Bible teaches that God's glory destroys sin and sinners but that like the fire on Mt. Sinai, it is real fire and it actually burns up the wicked and everything that has resulted from sin. We see this pattern all through the Bible, that fire is associated with God's presence. It is a supernatural fire, but a real fire nevertheless, a fire that puts out heat and burns and kills. Remember, for instance, the cloud of fire that kept the children of Israel warm at night during the wilderness wandering. We know that God (the pre-existent Christ) was in that cloud. Many other examples of fire in association with God might be given.

We also agree that this punishment is not arbitrarily imposed by God but is the direct result of choices people have made during their lives. However, you and I evidently understand the term "arbitrarily" differently as regards the destruction of the wicked.

I don't believe that Jesus and the saints impose an arbitrary punishment on the wicked. It is done according to God's will, and God's will is never arbitrary, even though it may appear that way at times to humans. Consider the fact that Jesus says He comes to repay everyone according to their works, or deeds. That means the rewards are not arbitrary. It's according to God's law that says we reap what we sow. The righteous, together with Jesus, spend 1000 years going over the records of the lives of the wicked in order to be fair and just in their sentence. To me this does not sound like something that is arbitrary.

Would you agree with me that Satan and the wicked are far more likely-- even guaranteed-- to cause the suffering to be arbitrary? Whereas we can be absolutely certain, can't we, that God would be fair and loving in His decisions about these thing. God wouldn't cause any unnecessary suffering, but we know from Satan's past that he would cause as much suffering as possible, far more than people deserve. Ellen White says God will destroy some people as in a moment, but I'm afraid that if Satan is in charge, he will see to it as no one dies quickly or painlessly. Would this be justice? I'm sure you agree it wouldn't be. Yet how would this be avoided if the destruction of the wicked is under the control of the wicked and Satan?

By the way, I had an aunt who said she left the church and even rejected the Bible because of the verse which says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Her mother-- my grandmother-- was an SDA Bible Worker for many years (from about 1910 to 1940) and explained the verse clearly to my aunt. She gave the same explanation you give here, which of course I believe.

Amen

[Lutz13]

So John, just to use a couple of examples, do you mean that you would read them the verse that says that "God slew Saul" but at the same time you would refrain from reading them the verse that says that "Saul took a sword and fell on it," clearly showing that God did not directly execute him but that He left Him to himself to reap that which he had sown, which is in perfect keeping with the inspired statement that He does not stand toward the sinner as the executioner of the sentence against transgression. Why would you not use that opportunity to explain to them that the Lord had no choice but to withdraw His Spirit from him, and to leave him to himself with no power to control the evil passions of his soul and with no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan? 1 Chronicles 10:14,4.

Sky, are you familiar with Hosea 13:11? It makes the wrath of God clear as day!

[skyblue888]

Yes I am familiar with this verse. What is your understanding of it? please share your thoughts.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Would I personally set my loved ones on fire? I assume you're asking if I would do it in my present mental and spiritual condition. The answer is no. But then I don't hate sin to the extent that God does and I don't see just how evil and terrible sin really is.