Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Guest]

[John317]

All the talk about destruction is just talk. Actual destruction will never take place. All the talk about it is just encouragement to be good children.

For me that is saying God tells lies in the Bible in order to manipulate people into doing what He wants. I don't believe He does that. The Bible calls God "a God of truth" (Deut. 32: 4) and the God who can be trusted (Deut. 7: 9).

Since God inspired virtually all of His prophets to tell us of a coming destruction of unrepentant sinners, we can well believe Him. Study Matt. 24; Romans 2: 5-11; Rev. 20.

[Guest]

He said he would destroy Sodom. Did he do it?......YES

He said he would destroy the world by flood. Did he do it?...YES

Why would anybody doubt that he will do what he says he will. That just dosn't make sense.

[Lutz13]

I'm starting to wonder something...

Adam and Eve were told they would die if they sinned? What do you suppose was supposed to kill them? I'm starting to wonder if it was their guilt that was going to crush them yet by the grace of God He somehow suppressed it.

By the suppression the Holy Spirit brings out small dosages of guilt to bring our sins to mind. To show us our wrong doing.

Now why do you suppose a sinner in the presence of God is an impossibility?

I'm starting to understand why. We confess our sins to rid ourselves of our guilt yes? When Christ comes again, He will be seen in all His glory. When the sinner sees that glory(or character) that guilt is brought to the forefront full force! From a minute fraction to 100% and is too much to bare and they would plead for death to take them. Which is why God is a consuming fire to the wicked. That is why the saints can stand before God because they have no guilt...

Even the glory that Gabriel put forth was much for even Daniel the prophet to behold. Even when Gabriel took the form of man to veil that glory.

Christ died from the guilt of the world. His heart couldn't take it...Wouldn't it be the same for all sinners?

[Guest]

Where do you come up with this stuff. The Bible tells us pretty much how everything works, and yet you go off and dream up scenarios in your head, which are not in the Bible by the way, and proclaim that you now have understanding.

Oh, and here's a newsflash: Adam and Eve did die, and it wasn't from guilt.

[Lutz13]

Where do you come up with this stuff. The Bible tells us pretty much how everything works, and yet you go off and dream up scenarios in your head, which are not in the Bible by the way, and proclaim that you now have understanding.

Oh, and here's a newsflash: Adam and Eve did die, and it wasn't from guilt.

I actually got it from the guy you keep posting...

Wieland...

and newsflash, you don't have to be an ass..

[Guest]

I only post the stuff by Wieland that I can agree with. Did he say Adam and Eve died from guilt, and that Hell fire from God is only a guilty conscience?

[skyblue888]

Hell fire is real,,, it will be the final judgment after the 1000 years but that fire which will have eternal consequences will not come directly out from the Lord. That fire will be triggered by the wicked themselves. When "evil shall slay the wicked," (Ps.34:21) the Lord will not interfere and it is in that sense that fire will come from God out of heaven (first heaven). This is just as true as there won't be an eternal hell though the language of the Bible, if wrongly interpreted, can be made to say that there will be. We know that the second death will be eternal but not the fire.

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselvdes beyond His protection." e.g. white

This principle is true for all the judgments of God. This statement is not dealing with certain judgments that are to fall upon the wicked as compared to other judgments that will come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked. This principle shows the dealings of God with sin and sinners in all the judgments that are to fall upon them before or after probation. Before probation God's restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil but that measure increases as the Holy Spirit is persistently resisted until it is fully removed. But after the close of probation and after the 1000 years God's restraining power will be fully removed and it is in that sense that the wrath of God will be said to be complete. See Rev.15:1.

sky

[skyblue888]

He said he would destroy Sodom. Did he do it?......YES

He said he would destroy the world by flood. Did he do it?...YES

Why would anybody doubt that he will do what he says he will. That just dosn't make sense.

HE said to Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart and did He do it?

Yes he certainly did!

How? He sent him light and the light was resisted and this is how God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

sky

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

He said he would destroy Sodom. Did he do it?......YES

He said he would destroy the world by flood. Did he do it?...YES

Why would anybody doubt that he will do what he says he will. That just dosn't make sense.

HE said to Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart and did He do it?

Yes he certainly did!

How? He sent him light and the light was resisted and this is how God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

sky

But sending light is not how he destroyed Sodom. You're comparing oranges with apples.

[skyblue888]

No I am not. Just as He sent light to Pharaoh of Egypt and that light was resisted, He sent light to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the antediluvians but the light was resisted until the Holy Spirit was forced to withdraw from them.

God said to David that because of His sin that He would raise evil out out of his own house. Did He do it? Yes, certainly. How? He did not prompt this evil but He did not exercise His power to prevent that evil from happening.

God also said to David that because he failed of disciplining His children, that He would take things in hand. Did He take things in hand? Yes He did. His restraining power was in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances arose that punished sin with sin. See P.P.739,728.

God said that He sends strong delusions to those who do not have the love of the truth. Does He? Yes. How? As the light that He sends is rejected God withdraws His Spirit and leaves the unbelievers to the deceptions which they love. See G.C.431.

The language is always consistent and the principle of interpretation to be applied the same.

sky

[Guest]

>>Just as He sent light to Pharaoh of Egypt and that light was resisted, He sent light to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the antediluvians but the light was resisted until the Holy Spirit was forced to withdraw from them. <<

So the withdrawing of the HS is what set them on fire?

[skyblue888]

You could say that. They had no protection from eminent dangers that were threatening them. In their case it was fire by the eruption of a volcanoe. But of course fire is not always what threatens the wicked when the Holy Spirit is removed completely. It can be any natural disaster by which the enemy delights to annihilate those who choose him as their leader. In the case of Saul fire was not involved and yet it was the same sin. He died by the sword. In the case of Pharaoah of Egypt fire was not involved but some other plagues. In the case of David fire was not involved but some calamities arising from his own family. In the case of the wicked after the 1,000 years fire will be involved. By saying that fire will come from God out of heaven (first heaven) is just simply a prediction of what will take place as all the wicked of all ages shall turn against Satan and his evil angels. I know we have discussed this before many times but it won't hurt to repeat it again and again because it is written that the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon the wicked but in this way, they place themselves beyond His protection. Satan and his angels in the end will have no protection from the unsaved of all ages who will fall upon them with the fury of demons. Fire will break out from the midst of them, from the midst of that last great battle and it will be clearly seen that indeed, "Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

It is only in that sense that God will destroy them without even lifting the little finger against them.

sky

[Guest]

You could say that. They had no protection from eminent dangers that were threatening them. In their case it was fire by the eruption of a volcanoe.

Yes you could say that, but that would not be Biblical. The Bible says no such thing, in fact it plainly tells how the angels of God brought the fire.

[John317]

They had no protection from eminent dangers that were threatening them. In their case it was fire by the eruption of a volcanoe.

How do you harmonize that with what the Bible says, which is that "the Lord rained brimstone and fire from the Lord out of the heavens." The Holy Spirit did not inspire Moses to write that the fire came up out of the earth or from a volcano but that it came down from God out of heaven. Gen. 19: 24.

Why did the angels of God say, "We will destroy this place because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it"? Ge. 19: 13

Notice that in Gen. 19: 21, the angel of God told Lot, "Hurry, escape... because I cannot do anything until you arrive there."

I cannot see how these statements can be harmonized with the eruption of a volcano. Can you help me out?

What was it that the angel could not do, until after Lot escaped, to cause the destruction of the city? IOW, what did the angel finally do that caused the destruction of the city?

It says that Lord sent the angels to destroy the city. They do not say that the Lord sent them to rescue Lot merely but He sent them there to destroy the city. Jude 7 adds that the fire was a punishment for sexual immorality. It makes a direct connection between the punishment by fire and the acts committed by the people in those cities.

The angels also themselves in the narrative in Genesis clearly say that the destruction happened as a direct result of the wickedness of the people. How can this be if it was due to a volcano?

[John317]

sky, there's a very good book for sell at the ABC called, The Time of the End, A Study of the Last Days from the Word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy, 623 pages. It's complied by an SDA minister by the name of James L. Hayward, Sr. It contains a chapter entitled, "End of the World-- Sinners and Satan Destroyed." Like most of the book, it is filled with Ellen White quotes.

On page 438 of this book, it asks the question, Does God Destroy the Wicked?

Then it shows 6 quotes from Ellen White.

First the NO answer--

1) "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." COL 84.

Then the Yes answer:

1) "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that cause the destruction or death of the wicked." -EW 52

Under NO. 2) God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself. " 5 T 120.

Under YES. 2) "God will destroy the wicked from off the earth." PP 110.

Under NO. 3) "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner." GC 36.

Under YES. 3) "The wicked will He destroy... God executes justice upon the wicked." GC 541.

These sentences clearly convey contradictory meanings. The compiler has a solution, and he offers compelling evidence from the writings of Ellen White herself. He shows each statement in its full context.

The book contains this NOTE: "The above 'NO' and "YES' statements appear contradictory because they are not referring to the same events. In context the 'YES' statements refer to God's literal destruction of unrepentant sinner at the end of time. Also in context, the 'NO' statements refer not to man's final destruction, but to man's responsibility for the spiritual destruction of his own soul's salvation, and reaping in his lifetime the harvest of seeds he has sown. As such, the 'NO' statements must not be used (as some have) to support the theory that Gd does not destroy anyone."

Then the compiler gives all the quotes in their full context, and the evidence is (for me) conclusive that the compiler has drawn the correct conclusion.

[John317]

I've been reading that Larry Wilson (former SDA minister and author of books on Revelation) believes Noah's Flood was caused by a giant asteroid striking earth, killing the dinosaurs and causing the sea to boil over, thereby creating rain.

Why not simply accept the Bible record as it stands? That seems to me to take less faith than theories like the one Wilson came up with.

[Guest]

I have a sister that believes a large portion of wilson's stuff. I asked her about what you just said, and here is what she said back:

"No, I've never heard him use this about the flood. But, he does use it about the future.

If an asteroid should hit the Atlantic, say. It could take out all the coastline cities, wipe out fleets of ships, kill all the fish and ruin the algae, which will cause the water to turn blood red. You will find that in Rev.8:8 with the second trumpet, which is future."

[Lutz13]

Well you guys enjoy your "God is an executer" theology. I can't stand to read any more of it as it ruins me. I keep thinking God is out to get me when I do wrong. Which I know is totally wrong, but it is there because of this garbage here... I won't be back, enjoy yourselves.

[Guest]

Well you guys enjoy your "God is an executer" theology. I can't stand to read any more of it as it ruins me. I keep thinking God is out to get me when I do wrong. Which I know is totally wrong, but it is there because of this garbage here... I won't be back, enjoy yourselves.

What are you calling garbage, the Bible or the prophet?

[John317]

Let's look closely at the context of COL 84. What does the context show? Is it talking about the destruction of the wicked at either Christ's return or after the 1000 years?

Quote:

Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

NOTE: The context clearly shows that it is not referring to the final destruction of man at the end of time, but that man, not God, is responsible for the destruction of his spiritual life by sowing seeds of evil in his character.

[John317]

I have a sister that believes a large portion of wilson's stuff.

Does she realize that Larry Wilson has made many false predictions based on his interpretations of prophecy? For instance, see the 1994 edition of his book, WARNING! Revelation Is About to Be Fulfilled. He taught that two asteroids were to strike the earth in 1994 or 1995. During that same time he also expected a great earthquake that he believed is referred to in Rev. 8: 2-5. See pp. 101, 135 of his book.

[John317]

Let's look closely at the quote in 5 T 120. Does the context show us that it is talking about the destruction of the wicked at the end of the 1000 years?

Quote:

This case is placed on record for our benefit. Just what took place in Pharaoh's heart will take place in every soul that neglects to cherish the light and walk promptly in its rays. God destroys no one. The sinner destroys himself by his own impenitence. When a person once neglects to heed the invitations, reproofs, and warnings of the Spirit of God, his conscience becomes seared, and the next time he is admonished, it will be more difficult to yield obedience than before. And thus with every repetition. Conscience is the voice of God, heard amid the conflict of human passions; when it is resisted, the Spirit of God is grieved.

We want all to understand how the soul is destroyed. It is not that God sends out a decree that man shall not be saved. He does not throw a darkness before the eyes which cannot be penetrated. But man at first resists a motion of the Spirit of God, and, having once resisted, it is less difficult to do so the second time, less the third, and far less the fourth. Then comes the harvest to be reaped from the seed of unbelief and resistance. Oh what a harvest of sinful indulgences is preparing for the sickle! Testimonies for the Church Volume Five (1882-1889), page 120, paragraph 2 ;Chapter Title: Warnings and Reproofs

NOTE: As in the first quote, the context here reveals that the spiritual destruction of man's soul's salvation is not caused by God, but by man who reaps in his life the harvest of seeds he has sown. The prophet Hosea stated this same truth: "Oh Israel thou has destroyed thyself: but in Me is thine help." "Oh Israel, return unto the Lord thy God; for thou has fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13: 9; 14: 1.

[John317]

Finally let's examine in context the third "NO" quote: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner." GC 36.

Does the context show that it is referring to the destruction of the wicked at the end of the 1000 years?

Quote:

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. GC 35-36

NOTE: As in the first two quotations, this third statement, taken in context, simply means that God does not stand over man today, threatening to make a decree as an executioner; but the sinner himself is responsible for his own decisions as to what seeds he will sow and reap. Thus, none of the three statements supports the theory that God does not execute or destroy the wicked in their final annihilation. Ellen White further clarifies the sinner's responsibility for his own spiritual destruction of his soul's salvation in the following:

"If we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love." SC 34

"All are by their own choice deciding their destiny." Ed. 178

"By consulting the spirit of darkness [through the witch of Endor] Saul had destroyed himself." PP 68

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result... By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." 1 SM 235

NOTE: In conclusion, these statements that "God destroys no man," simply mean that God does not destroy man's choice of salvation. Man makes his own decision, and in resisting the Spirit, he destroys himself in his own spiritual life. This is how the soul is destroyed in this life.

But as God has destroyed the wicked in the past, in the future "God will destroy the wicked" (PP 110)-- some in the seven last plagues, all the wicked at Christ second advent, and again in the final annihilation at the end of the thousand years.

[John317]

I have a sister that believes a large portion of wilson's stuff.

Richard, check out the following link to a book about Larry Wilson's beliefs.

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-U-Z/Wilson.pdf

Read the first four or so pages and you will see things that will remind you of some beliefs you read on the Forum. I'm going to ask Wayfinder and MM if they have read Wilson because he says many similar things.

What Wilson does is claim to believe that Ellen White was a true prophet and that she was inspired the same as the prophets of the Bible-- but then he proceeds to show how all the prophets were frequently wrong and we have to learn how to tell when that happens and then somehow find what the real truth is.