Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i was stating a fact that i had noticed and that has influenced my decision.

it also influences whether a person outside of the church will listen to anyone in the church.

it is just a fact. a law of human nature. cant get around it. people will make decisions based on anothers behavior.

Quote:

We need to have higher and more distinct views of the character of Christ,

to lead us to copy his example.

We need to better understand what constitutes a pure religious life.

We must learn to be Christ-like in disposition and character.

We need an increase of faith in the promises of God.

He has shown us great and precious favors;

he has revealed to us his glory, all loving, holy.

These attributes are blended with justice and mercy.

We are not to think of God only as a judge, and to forget him as our loving Father.

Nothing can do our souls greater harm than this; for our whole spiritual life will be molded by our conceptions of God's character.

We have lessons to learn of Jesus' love.

He has been ever solicitous for our welfare. His voice is ever inviting us to come to him with all our griefs and sorrows; and if we will obey the call, we shall draw toward Jesus. {RH, April 5, 1887 par. 10}

these are the kinds of statements that have always gotten my attention over the decades more than anything else she has to say. ultimately it will my character that decides whether i get into heaven or not.

not whatever i may or not believe. [/quote']

This is a catch 22 for what we believe or don't believe affects our character in more ways than one. "The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light." T.M.91. For example, if we persist in believing that God stands toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, when we have been expressly shown that He does not, we will continue to see God in a false light and it will affect our character and the way we treat others. That is why it is so important to heed the warning not to disregard one ray of light.

"We embrace the truth of God with our different faculties and as we come under the influence of that truth, it will accomplish the work for us which is necessary to give us a moral fitness for the Kingdom of glory and the society of heavenly angels. We are now in God's workshop. Many of us are rough stones from the quary. But as we lay hold upon the truth of God, it elevates us and removes from us every imperfection and sin, of whatever nature. Thus we are prepared to see the King in His beauty and to unite with the pure and heavenly angels in the Kingdom of glory. It is here that this work is to be accomplished for us, here that our bodies and spirits are to be fitted for immortality." E.G.W. Maranatha, p.221.

And "Unless we make it our life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is our privilege to claim, we can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

Only as we do this can we receive the grace of the Holy Spirit to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character.

Thus we must daily apply to the merits of Christ. It is our only hope for time and eternity.

sky

* Thus "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." This is "living faith" and "A living faith means an increase of vigor, a confiding trust, by which the soul becomes a conquering power." D.A.347; F.W.64,65.

May I disagree with the assessment here?

The idea that we cannot grow unless we understand God's character is "this way" is based in an assumption that God is "this way".

Just because one believes that God ultimately destroys, does not mean that one does not believe God is a God of love ultimately.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

It is the depths of His love that causes Him to "have to" destroy sin.

I think the confusion may be that some think that God "destroying" is an act of "evil".

When in fact it is an act of mercy.

Our "human understanding" cannot see that destruction is necessary.

---------------------------

But consider this:

Mercy and love cannot permit sin to continue.

And contrary to what is being stated on this thread.

Sin "grows".

It does not destroy itself.

It contaminates like a virus.

The last 6000 or so years on this planet should convince us of that.

Unless God steps in and puts an end to sin and satan, it will continue to grow for eternity.

------------------------------

But if we believe that "sin" will ultimately destroy itself, then there was no reason for Christ to die on the cross.

God could have just "waited" for sin to "destroy" itself.

That is not what happened. God had to step in and put an end to the sin problem.

Actively.

God is not some humanistically structured idealistic pacifist.

God is a God of love that has to destroy sin to be that very God of love.

Otherwise Jesus did not need to come to the cross, the sin problem would have took care of itself a long time ago.

SIN GROWS!

And God has taken the decision to clean it up, personally...

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

We are not held guilty for what we do not know, for what has not been revealed to us. But if we neglect to know or resist the light that is sent to us, then we are accountable. The Lord is causing the light of His glory to shine upon us as a people. Will we resist it as did the Jews or will we receive it, believe it, and act upon it? He has declared in no uncertain terms that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. All the truth wants from us is that we believe it because it is the truth, because God says it. It is our duty to accept this simple declaration of truth with implicit faith. If we resist this precious light of truth we will continue to see God and Christ in a false light as did the Jews. Even John the Baptist saw Christ in a false light and it wasn't until the end of His ministy while physically and mentally tortured in a dark dungeon that he finally saw God as He really is. It was the same with the disciples of Christ and with the apostle Paul. They too had a misconception of God on account of tradition and misinterpretation of the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin which are ever the same.

We are repeating their history to the very letter. "Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the end of the ages have come." 1 Cor.10:11.

The Jews thought that the Messiah would reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire. (D.A.215) They had long seen Him as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. They had a false conception of Him. Christ came to deliver them from that false conception. But they resisted the light and for that they lost their eternal life. They refused the light that would have been unto them a savor of life unto life.

sky

[Twilight]

We are not held guilty for what we do not know, for what has not been revealed to us. But if we neglect to know or resist the light that is sent to us, then we are accountable. The Lord is causing the light of His glory to shine upon us as a people. Will we resist it as did the Jews or will we receive it, believe it, and act upon it? He has declared in no uncertain terms that He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. All the truth wants from us is that we believe it because it is the truth, because God says it. It is our duty to accept this simple declaration of truth with implicit faith. If we resist this precious light of truth we will continue to see God and Christ in a false light as did the Jews. Even John the Baptist saw Christ in a false light and it wasn't until the end of His ministy while physically and mentally tortured in a dark dungeon that he finally saw God as He really is. It was the same with the disciples of Christ and with the apostle Paul. They too had a misconception of God on account of tradition and misinterpretation of the teaching of the Bible concerning His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin which are ever the same.

We are repeating their history to the very letter. "Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the end of the ages have come." 1 Cor.10:11.

The Jews thought that the Messiah would reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire. (D.A.215) They had long seen Him as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. They had a false conception of Him. Christ came to deliver them from that false conception. But they resisted the light and for that they lost their eternal life. They refused the light that would have been unto them a savor of life unto life.

sky

But what if it is you that is in "error" Sky?

Will you be going on in darkness?

What if the truth is that God takes personal care of the sin problem and deals with it Himself?

Then does the above counsel not apply to you?

Are you condemning yourself above possibly?

Food for thought. :-)

Mark

[skyblue888]

It is the Spirit of Christ that is bearing the sins of the whole world for "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17.

Christ bears the curse wherever it is found, and where is it not found? We read in The Desire of Ages that as iniquity abounds the Spirit of Christ is withdrawing from the earth, and calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. (D.A.636.1) It is in that sense that sin destroys itself. This is what is meant by God's wrath. When Christ has no other choice but to withraw His presence, calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. This is happening in the world as we speak. Day after day we hear of one calamity after another. God's Spirit is withdrawing from the earth.

"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of Man shall be revealed. The Lord is removing His restrictions from the earth, and soon there will be death and destruction. Those who are without God's protection will find no safety in any place or position." 8 t 50.

"They withheld the Lord's money and hindered the work which he designed to have done. God was not honored by the use made of His entrusted goods. Therefore, He let the curse fall upon them, permitting the spoiler to destroy their fruits and to bring calamities upon them." 6 T 390.

sky

"Everything in the world is in agitation. The signs of the times are ominous. Coming events cast their shadows before. The Spirit of God is withdrawing from the earth, and calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. There are tempests, earthquakes, fires, floods, murders of every grade. Who can read the future? Where is security?" D.A.636.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

but i have to remind all of us that it is not until the sunday law is about to go into effect, and after, that Gods people will come into the church, while multitudes abandon it.

And what makes you think that isn't happening right now?

has the sunday law happened yet?

what happens when persecution comes?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

ultimately it will my character that decides whether i get into heaven or not.

not whatever i may or not believe.

The only way we will enter the kingdom of heaven is whether we have accepted the character of Jesus Christ as our own, by faith.

And that would be both imparted and imputed. Nothing less will be sufficient. Praise God.

Blessings!

agreed

[skyblue888]

but i have to remind all of us that it is not until the sunday law is about to go into effect, and after, that Gods people will come into the church, while multitudes abandon it.

____________________________________

The leaders of the Jewish church held the same opinion. They too expected that people from all nations would flock to them but instead they became the representatives of Satan. "The people whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become the representatives of Satan" (D.A.36) and were fighting against the very instruments whom God had chosen to bring that about. Thus the Jewish church sealed her rejection of God's last message of mercy and they were left behind. The true disciples of Christ were forced out of the Jewish church through a great persecution and they went to the Gentiles to proclaim their message.

This scenario is all deleniated in the parable of Matt.22 which was written more for us than for the Jews. When Jesus spoke that parable He was looking down the ages with His eye fixed upon our time. We are now living in the time of the second and final call of the parable to the Advent people. The third call will be the loud cry to the world.

sky

[skyblue888]

"The eye of Jesus, looking down the ages, was fixed upon our time when He said, 'If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!' It is still thy day, O church of God, whom He has made the depository of His law. This day of trust and probation is drawing to a close. The sun is fast westering. Can it be that it will set and thou wilt not know 'the things which belong unto thy peace!'? Must the irrevocable sentence be passed, 'But now they are hid from thine eyes.'" (Luke 19:42) E.G. White, Revew and Herald, April 26,1892.

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that they were the favorites of heaven, and that they were always to be exalted as the church of God. They were the children of Abraham, they declared, and so firm did the foundation of their prosperity seem to them that they defied earth and heaven to dispossess them of their rights. But by lives of unfaithfulness they were preparing for the condemnation of heaven and for separation from God...

"The Lord says, "Shall I not visit for these things?" Jer. 5:9. Because they failed of fulfilling God's purpose, the children of Israel were set aside, and God's call was extended to other peoples. If these too prove unfaithful, will they not in like manner be rejected?" C.O.L.294,304.

sky

[teresaq]

SIN GROWS!

And God has taken the decision to clean it up, personally...

this gives the impression that you do not see sin as destructive.

generally smoking kills both the smoker and those exposed to it.

drinking and driving tends to mangle and kill.

i want to walk carefully here, because it is not my wish to hurt nor offend, but a homosexual lifestyle tends towards self-destruction according to health authorities. which gives every evidence as to why God would condemn it. http://www.geocities.com/mtgriffith1/healthrisks.htm God hates whatever hurts us! God hates it with a passion!

it is much harder to see how sins such as pride eventually kill us, but they do.

so, yes, sin grows and grows like a cancer until it has utterly consumed its victim.

if it werent for God Who holds back the destruction of sin, this planet would have self-annihilated long ago.

[teresaq]

Quote:

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained." EW 294

For God to carry out what EGW states He would have to keep some alive for many days. This act would be more about torture then justice. You can't burn for days without dying unless something supernatural keeps you alive. And according to EGW if all that remained was a finger that person would still feel the pain! ???

that is the picture i get.

and if we concentrate on only that one paragraph without considering how the other paragaraphs, and chapter, and other statements, play into the scenario that is the only conclusion we can come to.

that a finger, for example, without a brain to tell it what to feel, will still have the sense of suffering.

the breath of life, the blood, (the life is in the blood) are gone, yet somehow there is still some sensation.

so, for me, this is denying one of our foundational doctrines, that of the state of the dead.

[teresaq]

May I disagree with the assessment here?

The idea that we cannot grow unless we understand God's character is "this way" is based in an assumption that God is "this way".

Just because one believes that God ultimately destroys, does not mean that one does not believe God is a God of love ultimately.

you do have a point with your first paragraph.

it is true that how we view God determines how we grow, in which direction, but that does not mean that God does not take us where we are at, wherever that is, and lead us step by step.

i am not trying to imply that anyone has to ultimately come to certain conclusions to "arrive" but those conclusions do affect how we will grow and how we will treat others.

on the other hand we can believe that God never destroys and it still have no effect in changing our lives, on our spiritual growth.

[skyblue888]

teresa, you wrote: It is true that how we view God determines how we grow, in which direction, but that does not mean that God does not take us where we are at, wherever that is, and lead us step by step.

I am not trying to imply that anyone has to ultimately come to certain conclusions to "arrive" but those conclusions do affect how we will grow and how we will treat others.

on the other hand we can believe that God never destroys and it still have no effect in changing our lives, on our spiritual growth.

_____________________________________________________________

teresa, in your first statement you are implying that it is not necessary to arrive at certain conclusions about the character of God but then you add that the conclusions we arrive at do affect how we will grow and how we will treat others.

And then in your next two statements you imply that the conclusions we arrive to, one way or the other, will not change our lives or affect our spiritual growth!

Yes God takes us where we are, in our Laodicean condition, a people who claim to know and possess everything, (1 S.M.358) a people who think we are all right when we are all wrong.

And He teaches us. This one thing He wants us to know about Him is that "He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the transgression against transgression." But if we resist this ray of heavenly light, the second revealing of light will be less clearly discerned. The darkness will increase until it is night in the soul.

So the starting point for us in order to know Him aright is to believe that "His judgments do not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." MR 14, 3.1.

The acceptance of this light will affect our conception of Him, of His character, and of His ways of dealing with sin and sinners and as a result our characters will be affected.

To declare that believing one way or the other will have no effect in changing our lives or in our spiritual growth is not according to Scripture for it is written that "to know Him is life eternal."

If I misunderstood you, please let me know! :

sky

The disciples of Christ saw God in a false light... so they asked Jesus to call fire from God out of heaven to consume a village of the Samaritans because they had refused to put them up for the night!

[pnattmbtc]

God is not some humanistically structured idealistic pacifist.

God is a God of love that has to destroy sin to be that very God of love.

Otherwise Jesus did not need to come to the cross, the sin problem would have took care of itself a long time ago.

SIN GROWS!

And God has taken the decision to clean it up, personally...

By violence?

My understanding is that the cross is the way that God has chosen to deal with sin.

"God is not some humanistically structured idealistic pacifist."

What does this mean? God is not against violence? Practices it Himself? Or something else?

[LifeHiscost]

Before Satan existed, violence did not exist. It is a tool of his kingdom. So why would God use a tool of the kingdom of the enemy?

The why is in the principle.

"[Remember] this: he who sows sparingly and grudgingly will also reap sparingly and grudgingly, and he who sows generously [ that blessings may come to someone] will also reap generously and with blessings."2 Cor 9:6 AMP brackets theirs LHC

"They sow the wind, And reap the whirlwind. The stalk has no bud; It shall never produce meal. If it should produce, Aliens would swallow it up."Hosea 8:7 NKJV

One reason for the warnings of God, even though they hurt our feelings, are given because the pain of ignoring them is greater than the pain of our hurt feelings.

There is a segment of the human race that believes it to be better to disbelieve, rather than admit following His advice is the best alternative for assuring the future in safety.

"For the hearts of this people have grown dull.Their ears are hard of hearing,And their eyes they have closed,Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.’" Matthew 13:16 NKJV

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

2 Timothy 4:3 KJV

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Before Satan existed, violence did not exist. It is a tool of his kingdom. So why would God use a tool of the kingdom of the enemy?

L:The why is in the principle.

Meaning?

[John317]

God is not against violence? Practices it Himself? Or something else?

Personally I'm fine with anything God does. I trust Him completely no matter what He does and whether or not I understand the reason He chooses to do something.

The Bible and Ellen White say that there was war in heaven and that God's forces compelled Lucifer and his forces to leave heaven. Although we can't know the details of how that occurred, it is obvious that Lucifer and his fallen angels resisted leaving heaven but were made to go. They "fought" and the evil angels were "cast out." I think it's safe to say that there was a certain amount of what humans would call "violence" involved.

[LifeHiscost]

has the sunday law happened yet?

what happens when persecution comes?

[LifeHiscost]

I should expand on that. :-)

When there is strife and division, envying etc amongst us, God condemns that as Carnal.

As the activity of "babes in Christ".

That was the sense of the condemnation. :-)

Mark

Understood and accepted, although my own position usually needs the simplest explanation.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:3 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

if it werent for God Who holds back the destruction of sin, this planet would have self-annihilated long ago.

I think the way the Spirit of Prophecy puts it, it went something like this.

"Jesus would have come err this___"

Anyone with any spiritual insight at all is aware that the horror of this world is not dragging on because that's the way God wants it.

"the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation"2 Peter 3:9 YLT

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Me:God is not against violence? Practices it Himself? Or something else?

J:Personally I'm fine with anything God does. I trust Him completely no matter what He does and whether or not I understand the reason He chooses to do something.

What you're writing here seems completely circular. Say God lied. Would you be fine with that? Or would you say God wouldn't do that?

Quote:

The Bible and Ellen White say that there was war in heaven and that God's forces compelled Lucifer and his forces to leave heaven. Although we can't know the details of how that occurred, it is obvious that Lucifer and his fallen angels resisted leaving heaven but were made to go. They "fought" and the evil angels were "cast out." I think it's safe to say that there was a certain amount of what humans would call "violence" involved.

She wrote:

Quote:

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)

This is diametrically opposed to what you just said. Clearly if the prevailing power of God's government is truth and love, then what "forced" Satan and his followers to leave was truth and love, not compelling power, or force, or violence.

[LifeHiscost]

Me:Before Satan existed, violence did not exist. It is a tool of his kingdom. So why would God use a tool of the kingdom of the enemy?

L:The why is in the principle.

Meaning?

[Guest]

Amen

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

SIN GROWS!

And God has taken the decision to clean it up, personally...

this gives the impression that you do not see sin as destructive.

generally smoking kills both the smoker and those exposed to it.

drinking and driving tends to mangle and kill.

i want to walk carefully here, because it is not my wish to hurt nor offend, but a homosexual lifestyle tends towards self-destruction according to health authorities. which gives every evidence as to why God would condemn it. http://www.geocities.com/mtgriffith1/healthrisks.htm God hates whatever hurts us! God hates it with a passion!

it is much harder to see how sins such as pride eventually kill us, but they do.

so, yes, sin grows and grows like a cancer until it has utterly consumed its victim.

if it werent for God Who holds back the destruction of sin, this planet would have self-annihilated long ago.

Sin has not been wiping itself out for the last 6000 years, it keeps growing...

That is self evident.

The argument that God does not destroy, implies that God is making sure sin "exists" if you belief sin will destroy itself.

Because if all God has to do is draw back for sin to destroy itself, why did he not do that at the beginning.

Sin grows, it does not "destroy itself".

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

I've been asking why God would use a tool invented by the enemy to do away with sin.

Quote:

Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)

I don't how the principles explained here allow for the possibility that God uses force to win the Great Controversy, much less violence.