Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[teresaq]

Light is only light if it is understood. Perhaps the light has not been presented with enough tact or graciousness or skill to be accepted. Perhaps it is we who have the light that are more lacking than those we consider to be rejecting it.

and there are different "lights" that come to us.

we can accept some "light". but at the same time see other "light" as umimportant, or not pertaining to us.

the hardest "light" for us to receive, i know it is for me, is that light that lays bare my soul. pride so often tries to take over and reject it. it can be a real struggle.

[LifeHiscost]

In order to be disregarding a "simple declaration of truth," one must be convinced that it is truth.

And that seems to me to be the work of the Holy Spirit, no matter whether given by the most silver tongued orator.

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"John 16:7,8 NKJV

Blessings!

[teresaq]

The Lord has convicted me this morning that at times I have not treated Sky correctly.

That there has been a lack of love, kindness and gentleness towards him, that at times my flesh has risen up and found expression in the spirit of my posts.

I apologise for this and for any other harshness that might have slipped through.

I apologise to Sky and anyone else who might have been offended.

The Lord has to often remind me I am a babe in Christ.

If by my harshness any of you were offended, forgive me.

Please be patient as the Lord works on me.

Mark :-)

thank you my brother and please forgive me for when my natural man pops through.

i am sincerely sorry but i know that i will fail again. but one day soon i believe we will have the victory!!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: LifeHisCost

I think I understand where you're coming from, and remind myself of the belief that originally motivated me to accept the Adventist faith, that God never did leave the wicked or unbeliever to live eternally in a hellfire that never would go out.

Me too. This didn't seem right. (i.e. in harmony with God's character)

Quote:

Having suffered under the fear of that for a good portion of my own early religious experience, and having been delivered from that fear by believing corrected theology, the short time that it took for God to eliminate those hostile to His plan of salvation was never a big issue with me, whatever choice He found best to solve the problem of sin, of which all who are left to enjoy the bliss of all things being made new will experience.

I think I felt this way too, until I thought through the idea of God's setting people on fire for the purpose of causing them excruciating pain. That doesn't seem right either.

unlike you two i was born into this church and while i accepted, "on faith" that "that" was what would happen, there was this nagging feeling. i just didnt see that as a loving God. and it didnt matter what kind of explanations were given for it. i just put it in the back of my mind. and went on.

im 58 years old, never "left" the church in the sense of leaving the doctrines. but its such a shame that while i was getting glimpses here and there that changed my view of God it is only recently and in large part due to this particular discussion that God is starting to really look good.

i think of all those wasted years i could have been truly witnessing for Him.....

[Twilight]

What else could be the purpose, except pain? The fire would kill the wicked in a few seconds, if God did not supernaturally prevent it from doing so. But then the wicked would not suffering proportionately for their sins. So God must supernaturally intervene so that the wicked can continue to suffer.

This is how I understand the theory.

Why would God choose such an inhumane way of killing people? Let's say you know you're going to be killed. What would you choose?

a.Firing squad.

b.Electric chair

c.Hanged

d.Gas

e.Burned at the stake

Wouldn't e. be at the bottom of everybody's list?

The purpose would appear to be the execution of His Judgement.

The wages of sin is death.

That is something we all agree on I believe.

The purpose of the Lord destroying sin and sinners is so that it does not exist anymore.

But there is also the need for each sin to be placed back on the person who brought it into the universe.

Each sinner has to receive their sin and the full consequences of that sin.

As God places the consequences back on the sinner, the sinner is destroyed.

How?

The consequence is this:

God has chosen to reveal His Glory.

He has chosen that He will be all and in all.

There is not a location in the universe where He will permit anything other than His loving will.

Love has to do that to be love.

So when His Holy nature is released, when His Glory is revealed, it is a consuming fire.

It consumes sin.

Those that have decided to connect themselves willingly to that sin will be destroyed.

This is how God destroys the sinners.

He destroys sin, they have refused to detatch themselves.

This is my understanding.

This is "my light".

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The Lord has convicted me this morning that at times I have not treated Sky correctly.

That there has been a lack of love, kindness and gentleness towards him, that at times my flesh has risen up and found expression in the spirit of my posts.

I apologise for this and for any other harshness that might have slipped through.

I apologise to Sky and anyone else who might have been offended.

The Lord has to often remind me I am a babe in Christ.

If by my harshness any of you were offended, forgive me.

Please be patient as the Lord works on me.

Mark :-)

thank you my brother and please forgive me for when my natural man pops through.

i am sincerely sorry but i know that i will fail again. but one day soon i believe we will have the victory!!

Thank you sister :-)

It is good to see the spirit of confession and repentance amongst Gods people.

It is the path to true joy in the Lord.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Me too. This didn't seem right. (i.e. in harmony with God's character)

Quote:

Having suffered under the fear of that for a good portion of my own early religious experience, and having been delivered from that fear by believing corrected theology, the short time that it took for God to eliminate those hostile to His plan of salvation was never a big issue with me, whatever choice He found best to solve the problem of sin, of which all who are left to enjoy the bliss of all things being made new will experience.

I think I felt this way too, until I thought through the idea of God's setting people on fire for the purpose of causing them excruciating pain. That doesn't seem right either. [/quote']unlike you two i was born into this church and while i accepted, "on faith" that "that" was what would happen, there was this nagging feeling. i just didnt see that as a loving God. and it didnt matter what kind of explanations were given for it. i just put it in the back of my mind. and went on.

im 58 years old, never "left" the church in the sense of leaving the doctrines. but its such a shame that while i was getting glimpses here and there that changed my view of God it is only recently and in large part due to this particular discussion that God is starting to really look good.

i think of all those wasted years i could have been truly witnessing for Him.....

Let me share my own experience of this.

I was not raised a Christian.

At the age of about 11 I read the bible.

At about that time, the idea of a destructive God did not make much sense.

Then a thought or impression came to me.

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

So from that point, it has never been an issue or struggle.

I accept this principle.

Then when this new idea was expressed here, I have been given the opportunity to examine it.

But in my spirit, in my heart there are stakes.

Those stakes are based on God ordering man and angels to destroy.

Those stakes are set by the Word of God.

Not one thing presented on here during this discussion has been sufficient to remove "those" stakes.

Why?

Because they have used the argument that the words on those stakes mean other than they have said.

Whilst I agree that the expressions in the bible can be coloured by the views of those expressing them.

These cases are quite clear cut and are never once disagreed with.

For me to remove those stakes, I have to treat them as error.

For my spiritual welfare and salvation, I will never do that and I would never teach another to do that either...

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

This is not the easiest part of reality to face, but the alternative is letting those hostile to God and His children live on without end, to continue their effort to destroy the peace and security of the rest of the universe, not a choice revealing to me the character of Love we all look forward to experiencing in full.

To assume that the only alternative to taking a violent action to destroy sinners is to allow them to live without end is to assume that they do not depend upon something outside for life (e.g., the tree of life) and that sin has no destructive impact on one's life. If sin had even only a small destructive impact, throughout the course of eternity, it would surely kill the one practicing it. So the idea suggested is dependent upon the idea that sin is completely innocuous.

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Why would God choose such an inhumane way of killing people? Let's say you know you're going to be killed. What would you choose?

a.Firing squad.

b.Electric chair

c.Hanged

d.Gas

e.Burned at the stake

Wouldn't e. be at the bottom of everybody's list?

Mark:The purpose would appear to be the execution of His Judgement.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Let me share my own experience of this.

I was not raised a Christian.

At the age of about 11 I read the bible.

At about that time, the idea of a destructive God did not make much sense.

Then a thought or impression came to me.

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

So from that point, it has never been an issue or struggle.

I accept this principle.

Then when this new idea was expressed here, I have been given the opportunity to examine it.

But in my spirit, in my heart there are stakes.

Those stakes are based on God ordering man and angels to destroy.

Those stakes are set by the Word of God.

Not one thing presented on here during this discussion has been sufficient to remove "those" stakes.

Why?

Because they have used the argument that the words on those stakes mean other than they have said.

Whilst I agree that the expressions in the bible can be coloured by the views of those expressing them.

These cases are quite clear cut and are never once disagreed with.

For me to remove those stakes, I have to treat them as error.

For my spiritual welfare and salvation, I will never do that and I would never teach another to do that either...

Mark :-)

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

This was Saul of Tarsus' point of view before his conversion and he was certainly acting in accordance with that erroneous idea.

But the Bible says,

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

Not love.

But love will permit sin to destroy itself, to follow its natural course.

sky

[Twilight]

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

This was Saul of Tarsus' point of view before his conversion and he was certainly acting in accordance with that erroneous idea.

But the Bible says,

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

Not love.

But love will permit sin to destroy itself, to follow its natural course.

sky

I have received the Holy Spirit into my heart and spirit by Faith Sky.

That means, I am converted.

As I continue to follow the leading of that Spirit.

My conversion is assured...

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

I did not necessarily imply that you were not but one thing is certain is that the apostle Paul, before His conversion, believed that he was rendering a service to God by putting to death those who did not act in accordance with his ideas. He saw God in a false light.

"Your conversion is assured" you said, of couse if you continue to follow the leading of the Spirit, even when He tells you that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression?"

It is hard to kick against the pricks!

sky

[Guest]

It is hard to kick against the pricks!

Seems like it's pretty easy for you.

[LifeHiscost]

i was getting glimpses here and there that changed my view of God it is only recently and in large part due to this particular discussion that God is starting to really look good.

i think of all those wasted years i could have been truly witnessing for Him.....

OTOH it does seem true, unless we as fallen human beings recognize that there is no such thing as a good person without the cleansing blood of Jesus, and including ourselves, we seem totally incapable of appreciating the pit from which we've been delivered.

"“The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NKJV

Therefore we can thank God, at least for a measure of deliverance, that now allows us to glorify God as He works in and through our lives.

I believe that Truth recognized, to be a major reason why the Holy Spirit is having such a success around the world today.

" “ And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions."Joel 2:28 NKJV

Yesterday I watched a program in which Shawn Boonstra testified that, whereas at one time within the last decade or so, we were fortunate to see 2-10 baptism into Jesus in a year, in the campaign he was involved in 16,000 people accepted Jesus as their Savior. And this phenomena has added to the Adventist church alone, over 25,000,000 people who are now safe in Jesus.

I can praise God with you, teresaq, that we are no longer among the walking dead, and our present witness allows people to see Jesus' power instead of focusing on the false ladder of goodness set up by false religious beliefs.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

For me to remove those stakes, I have to treat them as error.

For my spiritual welfare and salvation, I will never do that and I would never teach another to do that either...

Mark :-)

God bless you, Mark, as I know He has.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHisCost

This is not the easiest part of reality to face, but the alternative is letting those hostile to God and His children live on without end, to continue their effort to destroy the peace and security of the rest of the universe, not a choice revealing to me the character of Love we all look forward to experiencing in full.

So the idea suggested is dependent upon the idea that sin is completely innocuous.

If that was the idea you perceived from the post as written, it was not an idea fom me.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."Ezekiel 18:20 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[teresaq]

Still, no fire that burned people. Does God never use fire to destroy? You decide.

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."Rev 19:20 NKJV

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: sky

It is hard to kick against the pricks!

Seems like it's pretty easy for you.

Sometimes this is necessary.

Blessings!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

For me to remove those stakes, I have to treat them as error.

For my spiritual welfare and salvation, I will never do that and I would never teach another to do that either...

Mark :-)

God bless you, Mark, as I know He has.

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

unlike you two i was born into this church and while i accepted, "on faith" that "that" was what would happen, there was this nagging feeling. i just didnt see that as a loving God. and it didnt matter what kind of explanations were given for it. i just put it in the back of my mind. and went on.

im 58 years old, never "left" the church in the sense of leaving the doctrines. but its such a shame that while i was getting glimpses here and there that changed my view of God it is only recently and in large part due to this particular discussion that God is starting to really look good.

i think of all those wasted years i could have been truly witnessing for Him..... [/quote']

Let me share my own experience of this.

I was not raised a Christian.

At the age of about 11 I read the bible.

At about that time, the idea of a destructive God did not make much sense.

Then a thought or impression came to me.

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

So from that point, it has never been an issue or struggle.

I accept this principle.

Then when this new idea was expressed here, I have been given the opportunity to examine it.

But in my spirit, in my heart there are stakes.

Those stakes are based on God ordering man and angels to destroy.

Those stakes are set by the Word of God.

Not one thing presented on here during this discussion has been sufficient to remove "those" stakes.

Why?

Because they have used the argument that the words on those stakes mean other than they have said.

Whilst I agree that the expressions in the bible can be coloured by the views of those expressing them.

These cases are quite clear cut and are never once disagreed with.

For me to remove those stakes, I have to treat them as error.

For my spiritual welfare and salvation, I will never do that and I would never teach another to do that either...

Mark :-)

I really didn't understand most of this. I understood this:

Quote:

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

I agree with this idea. Love will destroy evil, but not violently or by violence. Love, of itself, will destroy evil, because love is more powerful than evil. Evil will be overcome by good, not by violence.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Let me share my own experience of this.

I was not raised a Christian.

At the age of about 11 I read the bible.

At about that time, the idea of a destructive God did not make much sense.

Then a thought or impression came to me.

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

So from that point, it has never been an issue or struggle.

I accept this principle.

Then when this new idea was expressed here, I have been given the opportunity to examine it.

But in my spirit, in my heart there are stakes.

Those stakes are based on God ordering man and angels to destroy.

Those stakes are set by the Word of God.

Not one thing presented on here during this discussion has been sufficient to remove "those" stakes.

Why?

Because they have used the argument that the words on those stakes mean other than they have said.

Whilst I agree that the expressions in the bible can be coloured by the views of those expressing them.

These cases are quite clear cut and are never once disagreed with.

For me to remove those stakes, I have to treat them as error.

For my spiritual welfare and salvation, I will never do that and I would never teach another to do that either...

Mark :-)

all is according to your fallible, human understanding.

until we get that crystal clear in our own minds we are apt to fall into very serious error thinking it is truth.

it does not matter how strongly we believe something,

how "apparent" it is,

and i cannot say this strongly enough,

our "spirit" can not be the decider of what is truth.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: sky

It is hard to kick against the pricks!

Seems like it's pretty easy for you.

[LifeHiscost]

Sorry I can't take the time right now, to further explore, but I have no problem with decisions different than those I've advanced. God knows for sure what is needed. I'll make an effort to get back later with more input. However I'm of the opinion when people cannot see eye to eye on Truth, better for me to leave the Light in revelation up to His timing.

"Ecclesiastes 3

Everything Has Its Time

1 To everything there is a season,

A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born,

And a time to die;

A time to plant,

And a time to pluck what is planted;

3 A time to kill,

And a time to heal;

A time to break down,

And a time to build up;

4 A time to weep,

And a time to laugh;

A time to mourn,

And a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones,

And a time to gather stones;

A time to embrace,

And a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to gain,

And a time to lose;

A time to keep,

And a time to throw away;

7 A time to tear,

And a time to sew;

A time to keep silence,

And a time to speak;

8 A time to love,

And a time to hate;

A time of war,

And a time of peace.

"

Blessings!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Quote:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 21st Century KJV

I would take this to mean that God is presenting as doing that which He permits. Is there some other way of taking this? He doesn't literally create evil, does He?

Your first comment is the way many find peace with their knowledge of Jesus, and I'm happy to believe that method to comfort one's self is not a point revealing the loss or means of salvation.

OTOH my own peace of mind lies in accepting the Word as it reads, especially when the Word is ascribed as directly

from God.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Still, no fire that burned people. Does God never use fire to destroy? You decide.

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."Rev 19:20 NKJV

hmmm, my brother, please understand i am not trying to belittle your study here. i know you have, but i suggest you have not dug deep enough.

when does this happen? before or after the 1000 years?

Quote:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(hmmm, another one of those instances where we should not, not, take the plain language of the bible at face value, unless of course we wish to give up truth... :smile: and i know noone here wishes to do that.)

do you picture this lake of fire enduring for 1000 years? if so then we have the beast and false prophet burning for 1000 years.

what are the beast and the false prophet?

who causes this "lake of fire"?

Quote:

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast....Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

making a revelation chart would put all these events and issues in perspective and in their natural sequence, so that we are not confused as to what happens and when.