Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[pnattmbtc]

The Lord has convicted me this morning that at times I have not treated Sky correctly.

That there has been a lack of love, kindness and gentleness towards him, that at times my flesh has risen up and found expression in the spirit of my posts.

I apologise for this and for any other harshness that might have slipped through.

I apologise to Sky and anyone else who might have been offended.

The Lord has to often remind me I am a babe in Christ.

If by my harshness any of you were offended, forgive me.

Please be patient as the Lord works on me.

Mark :-)

I'm very glad to see this. I've been concerned with the tone of posts in general. I hope this frank admission will be a conviction to the rest of us as well. We can't be too kind when dealing with others.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Pnatt said this:

In order to be disregarding a "simple declaration of truth' date='" one must be convinced that it is truth.

[/quote']

But what if the Holy Spirit is trying to convince you and I of the simple declaration of truth that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression" and we resist it, we disregard it, we set it aside or reject it?

sky

You've understood this in a general sense, as a principle. Others have understood it as limited in its context. I actually agree with you, that this is general principle, but I doubt the others who see things differently are. So as long as they sincerely believe this simple declaration of truth is limited in its context, they do not look to be rejecting truth.

For me, it's the principle that God is just like Jesus Christ, that in His humanity God revealed all that man can know about God, that did the trick (as well as some other general principles, such as violence/force not being a part of the government of God, and not existing before sin existed).

However, the principles or reasoning that works for us, may not work for another. This is where Jesus Christ was such a Master. He didn't have one arrow in His quiver, but knew just the right "arrow" to pick. We need the grace of God.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

And yet you cannot hide the fact that your god uses force. The view that you hold, shows a god that uses force. SOP says that only one government uses such.

The point is that God does not use force to require anyone to serve Him. War to eliminate those who chose not to serve God and actions taken against those hostile to the servants of the Lord here on this earth, are a result of a mindset by the adversary and his adherents that would not choose to serve God were they given the ages of eternity to change their mind.

Life is lost when we severe ourselves from the source of life, and God does not force any to continue in misery who have chosen their own method of government.

" Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,

That it cannot save;

Nor His ear heavy,

That it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have separated you from your God;

And your sins have hidden His face from you,

So that He will not hear.

For your hands are defiled with blood,

And your fingers with iniquity;

Your lips have spoken lies,

Your tongue has muttered perversity.

" Isaiah 59:1-3 NKJV

Regards!

You know, I agree with what you said. It is still a matter of how God goes about doing this though.

If God has to burn people alive in the end. What is different with Him and the people who tortured the Christians during the dark ages because they wouldn't follow their belief system?

[pnattmbtc]

If God has to burn people alive in the end. What is different with Him and the people who tortured the Christians during the dark ages because they wouldn't follow their belief system?

I really don't understand on what basis one would think God could or would do such a thing. I can understand not believing that God doesn't kill or destroy in the O.T., as this is conceptually much more involved, but I don't understand how one could not perceive just on the basis of common sense and having a basic understanding of what God is like, that setting people on fire to burn for days or hours is simply not something God would do.

Just think of the consequences. This would have God saying, "Please respond to my invitation to join My family. If you do, there will be eternal joys awaiting you. If you don't, I'll cause you to suffering beyond anything you've ever heard of or imagined. The tortures of the Middle Ages will be nothing compared to what you'll go through. So please, respond to my kind invitation, for I am meek and lowly in heart."

This just seems so incongruous to me.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Lutz

If God has to burn people alive in the end. What is different with Him and the people who tortured the Christians during the dark ages because they wouldn't follow their belief system?

I really don't understand on what basis one would think God could or would do such a thing. I can understand not believing that God doesn't kill or destroy in the O.T., as this is conceptually much more involved, but I don't understand how one could not perceive just on the basis of common sense and having a basic understanding of what God is like, that setting people on fire to burn for days or hours is simply not something God would do.

Just think of the consequences. This would have God saying, "Please respond to my invitation to join My family. If you do, there will be eternal joys awaiting you. If you don't, I'll cause you to suffering beyond anything you've ever heard of or imagined. The tortures of the Middle Ages will be nothing compared to what you'll go through. So please, respond to my kind invitation, for I am meek and lowly in heart."

This just seems so incongruous to me.

Yes it most certainly does and that is why if there is any suffering in the end, as there will be, it will not be caused by the direct decree of God. Fire will not come directly from Him out of heaven to consume the wicked. And yet the language of the Bible is that it will. It will come from God only in the sense that He will not interfere to prevent that fire from erupting from the midst of them in the ensuing battle. There is no reason to doubt that fire will be involved but we may be sure that it will not come directly from God but from their own deadly weapons which the unsaved will hurl against Satan and his angels. Mrs. White was shown that this battle will be like no other. In fact it will be more terrible than all the battles of the past combined. So we will have to wait and see how it will all unravel but inspiration gives us a pretty good idea in G.C.672. We just want to make sure that we will be inside the walls of the City and not outside!

During the executive judgment the unsaved will be punished and they will suffer individually but God will not be the executioner of the sentence.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In general, if I'm reading a post differently than everyone else, I would think that I've misread it. However, if many people have the same impression I have, that leads me to think the post was unclear.

I don't see why there would be a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions unless truth was rejected, so that may have led to my misunderstanding your intent. I'm glad you're not condemning anyone for rejecting truth.

pnatt, you just wrote, "I don't see why there would be a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions unless truth was rejected."

If inspiration declares that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," it must be true at all times. There is nothing in that statement that would allow anyone to suggest that it is only true some times. It is not only a general statement but it is absolute. It cannot be made to say anything else and it must be accepted just as it reads because it is a divine principle. God would not put Himself on record saying He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression and then to turn around later by saying that sometimes He does.

Here is the whole statement in context:

"It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their hearts. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths. It is by the rejection of this light Light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible. Light comes to the soul through God's word, through His servants, or by the direct Agency of His Spirit; but when one ray of light is disegarded, there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions, and the second revealing of light is less clearly discerned. So the darkness increases until it is night in the soul. Thus it had been with the Jewish leaders. They were convinced that a divine power attended Christ, but in order to resist the truth, they attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. In doing this they deliberately chose deception; they yielded themselves to Satan, and henceforth they were controlled by Satan.."

Now we can see why it is so important not to disregard one ray of light.

sky

[skyblue888]

The Lord has convicted me this morning that at times I have not treated Sky correctly.

That there has been a lack of love, kindness and gentleness towards him, that at times my flesh has risen up and found expression in the spirit of my posts.

I apologise for this and for any other harshness that might have slipped through.

I apologise to Sky and anyone else who might have been offended.

The Lord has to often remind me I am a babe in Christ.

If by my harshness any of you were offended, forgive me.

Please be patient as the Lord works on me.

Mark :-)

If I am to listen to Richard you need not have apologized since according to him you have been more than loving and kind to me. I know that everything is for a reason. If you really feel you have been unkind to me, I accept your apology. As for myself, I hold no grudges for I have not taken anything personally since we are dealing with the things of God. I can assure you that I have been honest in all my dealings with you and have only spoken in light of what I have been convinced in my own mind based on the words of inspiration, as they have been impressed upon my mind and heart.

Your post is very much appreciated.

I know that some have thought that I have been unkind to you and others but only because I have sounded a warning about the danger of disregarding one ray of light, but that warning applies to all of us. I have never said that anyone was condemned or lost just because one didn't believe as I did. But what I have said is that if we resist light when it comes then we are on dangerous ground. That's all. I will make no apology for saying this because these are the very words of inspiration. And the Lord knows that I have never said or quoted these words in retaliation.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

You've understood this in a general sense, as a principle. Others have understood it as limited in its context. I actually agree with you, that this is general principle, but I doubt the others who see things differently are. So as long as they sincerely believe this simple declaration of truth is limited in its context, they do not look to be rejecting truth.

pnatt, there is nothing in that statement or in the context of that statement that warrants anyone to think that it is not a general statement. There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.

For me, it's the principle that God is just like Jesus Christ, that in His humanity God revealed all that man can know about God, that did the trick (as well as some other general principles, such as violence/force not being a part of the government of God, and not existing before sin existed).

I agree with you on this wholeheartedly and I hope and pray that many more will soon.

However, the principles or reasoning that works for us, may not work for another. This is where Jesus Christ was such a Master. He didn't have one arrow in His quiver, but knew just the right "arrow" to pick. We need the grace of God.

Sorry pnatt but here I cannot agree with this idea. This is a private opinion. When the Lord states a principle by which the language of the Bible is to be understood, or by which it is to be interpreted, we need to accept this revealed principle by faith and the Lord will reward our faith by opening the eyes of our understanding that we may see light in God's light.

There is nothing ambiguous about a statement such as: "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

If that statement had been limited to its context as found in G.C.35,36 the Holy Spirit would have specified that it applied only to that context. Far from being limited to a specific context, it is a statement which establishes a principle of interpretation which never deviates. In fact acceptance of this light frees us completely from the traditions and the misinterpretations that have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin. See G.C.492,593.

I am sure you will agree with this.

God bless,

sky

[Guest]

Where does it say that we are to interpret the language of scripture, or the Bible as a whole, by this quote?? It was never her role to change how we interpret scripture.

[LifeHiscost]

However, the principles or reasoning that works for us, may not work for another. This is where Jesus Christ was such a Master. He didn't have one arrow in His quiver, but knew just the right "arrow" to pick. We need the grace of God.

Amen! A point of Truth. Praise God. Or as Richard would say,a word of wisdom. BTW, thanks Richard and praise the Lord, for Jesus alone gives the wisdom needed.

"...to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to him [be] glory to the ages. Amen."Romans 16:27 YLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

You know, I agree with what you said. It is still a matter of how God goes about doing this though.

If God has to burn people alive in the end. What is different with Him and the people who tortured the Christians during the dark ages because they wouldn't follow their belief system?

I think I understand where you're coming from, and remind myself of the belief that originally motivated me to accept the Adventist faith, that God never did leave the wicked or unbeliever to live eternally in a hellfire that never would go out.

Having suffered under the fear of that for a good portion of my own early religious experience, and having been delivered from that fear by believing corrected theology, the short time that it took for God to eliminate those hostile to His plan of salvation was never a big issue with me, whatever choice He found best to solve the problem of sin, of which all who are left to enjoy the bliss of all things being made new will experience.

"What do you conspire against the LORD? He will make an utter end of it.Affliction will not rise up a second time." Nahum 1:9 NKJV

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.""

Revelation 21:4 21st Century KJV

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

"1 John 4:18 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

But what I have said is that if we resist light when it comes then we are on dangerous ground. That's all. I will make no apology for saying this because these are the very words of inspiration. And the Lord knows that I have never said or quoted these words in retaliation.

sky

It's good for me for you to explain that, Sky. One of the ways I test the Spirit(spirit) in my own life is determining whether there is in me, as a response, any desire to put others in their respective place when I disagree with them.

"But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge]." Galatians 5:22,23 AMP

parenthesis, brackets theirs LHC

As I told my daughter earlier today, maybe one reason why the Lord chose to situate me 1,000 miles away from the closest relative was because He is still working on the above with me.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

During the executive judgment the unsaved will be punished and they will suffer individually but God will not be the executioner of the sentence.

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Ps.34:21.

sky

"Many are the afflictions of the righteous,

But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

He guards all his bones;

Not one of them is broken.

Evil shall slay the wicked,

And those who hate the righteous shall be condemned.

The LORD redeems the soul of His servants,

And none of those who trust in Him shall be condemned." Psalms 34:19-22 NKJV

You will notice that, in context, it does not say, "and God will not." In fact it says none of the righteous shall be condemned and none of those who trust in Him will be condemned, seeming to put this in contrast to condemnation to who? And here is something else God Himself says. Seems to have some application here.

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 21st Century KJV

Just a point.

Blessings!

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 21st Century KJV

I would take this to mean that God is presenting as doing that which He permits. Is there some other way of taking this? He doesn't literally create evil, does He?

[pnattmbtc]

One of the ways I test the Spirit(spirit) in my own life is determining whether there is in me, as a response, any desire to put others in their respective place when I disagree with them.

Very good!

[pnattmbtc]

I think I understand where you're coming from, and remind myself of the belief that originally motivated me to accept the Adventist faith, that God never did leave the wicked or unbeliever to live eternally in a hellfire that never would go out.

[Guest]

I don't think the pain is the purpose. It may be a by product, but it's not the purpose.

[pnattmbtc]

What else could be the purpose, except pain? The fire would kill the wicked in a few seconds, if God did not supernaturally prevent it from doing so. But then the wicked would not suffering proportionately for their sins. So God must supernaturally intervene so that the wicked can continue to suffer.

This is how I understand the theory.

Why would God choose such an inhumane way of killing people? Let's say you know you're going to be killed. What would you choose?

a.Firing squad.

b.Electric chair

c.Hanged

d.Gas

e.Burned at the stake

Wouldn't e. be at the bottom of everybody's list?

[Guest]

I guess it would.

Mat 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

[skyblue888]

I guess it would.

Mat 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

You see Richard, you just quoted a passage which Mrs. White in the Desire of Ages commented upon. I posted this several times and you have never addressed it. Why?

D.A.215.

sky

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 21st Century KJV

I would take this to mean that God is presenting as doing that which He permits. Is there some other way of taking this? He doesn't literally create evil, does He?

Your first comment is the way many find peace with their knowledge of Jesus, and I'm happy to believe that method to comfort one's self is not a point revealing the loss or means of salvation.

OTOH my own peace of mind lies in accepting the Word as it reads, especially when the Word is ascribed as directly

from God. If I didn't do it that way, I would be asking myself, "What other Word coming from God doesn't really mean what it says?", and, "How can I trust anything to mean what He says, if I can't trust that to say what He means?"

"But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”" Matthew 4:4 NKJV

In the meantime, while this seeming difficulty probably has many unsatisfied, it leaves me with a primary way of putting my trust in Him, paramount to concluding what He says is not like Him.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

BTW, the word evil Re: to God creating it, is translated as "calamity" in more recent translations. Is a calamity to be equated as something evil. There will be no calamity in heaven, insofar as I know.

Blessings!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: sky

I will dare to disagree with you on this.

What are you disagreeing with?

Quote:

The warning is clear: "When one ray of light is disregarded there is a benumbing of the spiritual perceptions and the second revealing is less clearly discerned." D.A.322

How would you know if someone else is rejecting light?

Quote:

I don't know how the Lord could have made this matter more plain. It does not say that when one ray of light is disregarded that the individual is lost but that it is dangerous to resist light, to resist one ray of light. The example Teresa gave of Mrs. White shows only one thing and that is that when the light was clearly shown to her on those two particular subjects she accepted the light. These statements refer to a time in her experience when the light had not yet been clearly presented to her.

Again, how do you know anyone is rejecting light?

Quote:

Today the Lord is causing His light to shine brightly upon us in regard to His character, in regard to the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin. Are we going to argue with Him when He clearly says that He is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression? How long does it take to believe that?

It depends on the person. In my case, it took probably about 25 years.

Quote:

When He says that His judgments do not come out directly from Him upon the wicked, How long does it take to believe Him? When He explains to us how holy angels "destroy" at His command, how long should it take for us to believe Him? When He has clearly explained to us what His "wrath" is, that His restraining power is in a measure removed (until it is fully removed) from the agencies of evil so that a train of circumstances arises that will punish sin with sin, how long should it take us to believe Him?

In my case, again, about 25 years. If it took me that long, I should be patient with others, shouldn't I?

Quote:

Either we believe these simple declarations or we don't. If we disregard these simple declarations of truth, there will be a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions and the second revealing will be less clearly discerned until it will be night in the soul. This is what happened to Pharaoh of old and to the Jewish leaders and this is what is happening today. There is nothing new under the sun.

In order to be disregarding a "simple declaration of truth," one must be convinced that it is truth.

Quote:

* pnatt, your opinion or my opinion does not count. What counts is what inspirations has to say on the matter. Fair enough?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. If you talking about the principles that inspiration discusses, then our opinions do matter. If we understand truth, and reject it, that's one thing. If we don't understand it, in which case our opinion is that it is not truth, that's another:

Quote:

Said the angel: "If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." (1TM 116)

these are very good points and so true.

another point that great lady pointed out is that different minds are reached by different people. one person may "preach" his/her heart out and make no dent. let another come along and there is immediate reception. my paraphrase.

[LifeHiscost]

I think I felt this way too, until I thought through the idea of God's setting people on fire for the purpose of causing them excruciating pain. That doesn't seem right either.

The idea of God setting people on fire is in itself, not a descriptive phrase found in the Holy Bible. The words, "consuming

fire", is yoked to the presence of God to a deliberately sinful person, not covered by Jesus righteousness.

"The sight of the glory of the LORD was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel." Exodus 24:17 NKJV

Here is a scripture describing God as a consuming fire to the children of Israel and there is no written evidence of any destruction involved at that precise time. Therefore the "consuming fire" does not necessarily equate with burning of anybody. However, just 8 chapters later, when Moses went down the mountain and found the Israelites worshipping before a golden calf, here were the results.

"“Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.’” So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day."Exodus 32:27,28 NKJV

No fire involved

When Moses made effort to intercede, this is what God instructed.

"Then Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.”

And the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."Exodus 32:31-33 NKJV

Still, no fire that burned people. Does God never use fire to destroy? You decide.

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."Rev 19:20 NKJV

"The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:13-15 NKJV

This is not the easiest part of reality to face, but the alternative is letting those hostile to God and His children live on without end, to continue their effort to destroy the peace and security of the rest of the universe, not a choice revealing to me the character of Love we all look forward to experiencing in full.

Blessings!

[Guest]

More words of wisdom.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

that was a beautiful post pnattmbtc.

i agree. there can be no judging and condemning of another.

...

it would be a shame to come up to that "day" finding that we ourselves had been cast away while those we judged as rejecting light were there in full glory. [/quote']

Thank you.

Yes, we don't know the heart of another, and it's not our place to judge.

I just came across the following:

Quote:

There are scarcely two whose experiences are alike in every particular. The trials of one may not be the trials of another; and our hearts should ever be open to kindly sympathy, and aglow with the divine love that Jesus manifested for all his brethren. Christ sometimes reproved with severity, and in some cases it may be necessary for us to do so; but we should consider that while Christ knew the exact condition of the ones he rebuked,--just the amount of reproof they could bear, and what was necessary to correct their course of wrong,--he also knew just how to pity the erring, comfort the unfortunate and encourage the weak. He knew just how to inspire hope and courage; for he was acquainted with the exact motives and the peculiar trials of every mind. He reproved with pity, and loved those he rebuked with a divine love. (ST 3/3/87)

Isn't this nice?

yes it is!! we should probably study these more than most other subjects!!

this applies to children but the principle is the same:

Quote:

. . . . Their dispositions, their tendencies, their traits of character are to be studied. .... {CG 205.2}

Violence or harshness is not required in this work. Self-control must be cultivated and leave its impression on the mind and heart of the child. {CG 205.3}

It is a very nice work to deal with human minds. All children cannot be treated in the same way, for that restraint which must be kept upon one would crush out the life of another. {CG 205.4}