Is destruction inevitable by a loving Creator?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i was getting glimpses here and there that changed my view of God it is only recently and in large part due to this particular discussion that God is starting to really look good.

i think of all those wasted years i could have been truly witnessing for Him.....

OTOH it does seem true, unless we as fallen human beings recognize that there is no such thing as a good person without the cleansing blood of Jesus, and including ourselves, we seem totally incapable of appreciating the pit from which we've been delivered.

"“The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NKJV

Therefore we can thank God, at least for a measure of deliverance, that now allows us to glorify God as He works in and through our lives.

I believe that Truth recognized, to be a major reason why the Holy Spirit is having such a success around the world today.

" “ And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions."Joel 2:28 NKJV

Yesterday I watched a program in which Shawn Boonstra testified that, whereas at one time within the last decade or so, we were fortunate to see 2-10 baptism into Jesus in a year, in the campaign he was involved in 16,000 people accepted Jesus as their Savior. And this phenomena has added to the Adventist church alone, over 25,000,000 people who are now safe in Jesus.

I can praise God with you, teresaq, that we are no longer among the walking dead, and our present witness allows people to see Jesus' power instead of focusing on the false ladder of goodness set up by false religious beliefs.

Blessings!

first let me thank you for your gracious thoughts. :smile:

but i have to remind all of us that it is not until the sunday law is about to go into effect, and after, that Gods people will come into the church, while multitudes abandon it.

[Guest]

there are two groups of people in the character of God movement. one believes that God has to put some people to sleep

the other believes that God never destroys.

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

one believes that God has to put some people to sleep

the other believes that God never destroys.

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

You may want to go look in the mirror, before you start slandering people's Character like that. Those remarks are cutting and degrading to all who take the Bible as it reads. Do you really believe that you are that much better than people who don't see things like you do?

"MUCH higher standard" , "MUCH more depth of understanding"

What an EGO! What a pedestal you have put yourself on. The fact that you believe this about yourself shows unbelievable arrogance.

You have nullified any point you were trying to make by putting those who you think are inferior to your high standards, and deep understanding, into a little box. You have done the same thing with God. The two groups of people, as you put it, are from my point of view, (and others)

A. Those who believe what the Bible says.

B. Those who believe they know what the Bible really says.

I have noticed a contentious spirit with you from the beginning, and an imagined air of superiority, but I said, give her the benefit of the doubt. But now that you have literally spellled your thoughts out though, you have removed all doubt from my earlier impressions.

[John317]

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

even people in the world appear to have a much higher standard of behavior than flipping out remarks, even occasionally, such as

Quote:

Seems like it's pretty easy for you.

its a shame when the worlds standard for respect and courtesy is far superior to that of the church person.

With Moderator's hat on:

The discussion gets into trouble when instead of discussing evidence and reasoning, we start talking negatively about people because they disagree with our viewpoints.

Everyone should focus on the subject and not make personal attacks against those who have a different view of the topic.

If anyone has any questions about this or disagreements, please send PM.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

there are two groups of people in the character of God movement. one believes that God has to put some people to sleep

the other believes that God never destroys.

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

one believes that God has to put some people to sleep

the other believes that God never destroys.

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

You may want to go look in the mirror, before you start slandering people's Character like that. Those remarks are cutting and degrading to all who take the Bible as it reads. Do you really believe that you are that much better than people who don't see things like you do?

"MUCH higher standard" , "MUCH more depth of understanding"

What an EGO! What a pedestal you have put yourself on. The fact that you believe this about yourself shows unbelievable arrogance.

You have nullified any point you were trying to make by putting those who you think are inferior to your high standards, and deep understanding, into a little box. You have done the same thing with God. The two groups of people, as you put it, are from my point of view, (and others)

A. Those who believe what the Bible says.

B. Those who believe they know what the Bible really says.

I have noticed a contentious spirit with you from the beginning, and an imagined air of superiority, but I said, give her the benefit of the doubt. But now that you have literally spellled your thoughts out though, you have removed all doubt from my earlier impressions.

Richard, I beg you pardon. I have been observing too. And if there is someone here who is constantly making fun of those who disagree with your tradidional view on God's character or making sarcastic remarks to belittle your opponents, it is you my dear Richard. So you have three fingers pointing back at you right now!

I am not upset or angry with you in the least while saying this, okay?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

even people in the world appear to have a much higher standard of behavior than flipping out remarks, even occasionally, such as

Quote:

Seems like it's pretty easy for you.

its a shame when the worlds standard for respect and courtesy is far superior to that of the church person.

With Moderator's hat on:

The discussion gets into trouble when instead of discussing evidence and reasoning, we start talking negatively about people because they disagree with our viewpoints.

Everyone should focus on the subject and not make personal attacks against those who have a different view of the topic.

________________________________________________________________

John, I am sure you have been aware of the many times I have been made fun of and ridiculed for the view that I have been sharing regarding the character of God, and yet you have not said anything. Teresa simply made a few observations without attacking anyone personally. Let us beware of becoming so senstive that the truth is sacrificed for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings. If we can't run with men what will we do when we have to compete with horses. By the way this is a Bible verse that I just paraphrased!

sky

[Guest]

Yes I do make little digs every now and then, but I never said I was superior to you, with a deeper understanding, or a higher standard than you. Get real. She put down a whole group of people, but it was my name in the quote box.

[skyblue888]

Richard, you may not have said it in so many words but you have said it when making your litte digs here and there and by being sarcastic.

If that is not taking on an air of superiority, what is up with that?

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

there are two groups of people in the character of God movement. one believes that God has to put some people to sleep

the other believes that God never destroys.

two things i have noticed more common among them than those who believe God destroys:

1. they have a much higher standard of behavior

2. they have much more depth of study and understanding of the bible/sop.

one believes that God has to put some people to sleep

the other believes that God never destroys.

You may want to go look in the mirror, before you start slandering people's Character like that. Those remarks are cutting and degrading to all who take the Bible as it reads. Do you really believe that you are that much better than people who don't see things like you do?

"MUCH higher standard" , "MUCH more depth of understanding"

What an EGO! What a pedestal you have put yourself on. The fact that you believe this about yourself shows unbelievable arrogance.

You have nullified any point you were trying to make by putting those who you think are inferior to your high standards, and deep understanding, into a little box. You have done the same thing with God. The two groups of people, as you put it, are from my point of view, (and others)

A. Those who believe what the Bible says.

B. Those who believe they know what the Bible really says.

I have noticed a contentious spirit with you from the beginning, and an imagined air of superiority, but I said, give her the benefit of the doubt. But now that you have literally spellled your thoughts out though, you have removed all doubt from my earlier impressions.

hmmmm, when i said they i meant they.

but 'nuff said.

[teresaq]

Yes I do make little digs every now and then, but I never said I was superior to you, with a deeper understanding, or a higher standard than you. Get real. She put down a whole group of people, but it was my name in the quote box.

[Twilight]

all is according to your fallible, human understanding.

until we get that crystal clear in our own minds we are apt to fall into very serious error thinking it is truth.

it does not matter how strongly we believe something,

how "apparent" it is,

and i cannot say this strongly enough,

our "spirit" can not be the decider of what is truth.

If you ever experience the still small voice of God sister, then next time it comes, pay attention to where it comes from...

All inspiration has to be tested against the Word of God.

There is nothing in the above that sets that aside.

It is the leading of the Spirit and the Word of God that leads us into truth...

Why would you object strongly to that?

If you are objecting to that...?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yes I do make little digs every now and then, but I never said I was superior to you, with a deeper understanding, or a higher standard than you. Get real. She put down a whole group of people, but it was my name in the quote box.

i was stating a fact that i had noticed and that has influenced my decision.

it also influences whether a person outside of the church will listen to anyone in the church.

it is just a fact. a law of human nature. cant get around it. people will make decisions based on anothers behavior.

Quote:

We need to have higher and more distinct views of the character of Christ,

to lead us to copy his example.

We need to better understand what constitutes a pure religious life.

We must learn to be Christ-like in disposition and character.

We need an increase of faith in the promises of God.

He has shown us great and precious favors;

he has revealed to us his glory, all loving, holy.

These attributes are blended with justice and mercy.

We are not to think of God only as a judge, and to forget him as our loving Father.

Nothing can do our souls greater harm than this; for our whole spiritual life will be molded by our conceptions of God's character.

We have lessons to learn of Jesus' love.

He has been ever solicitous for our welfare. His voice is ever inviting us to come to him with all our griefs and sorrows; and if we will obey the call, we shall draw toward Jesus. {RH, April 5, 1887 par. 10}

these are the kinds of statements that have always gotten my attention over the decades more than anything else she has to say. ultimately it will my character that decides whether i get into heaven or not.

not whatever i may or not believe.

I personally have not seen any "better" behaviour from those that espouse the view that God is a pacifist... :-)

There has been carnality displayed throughout the thread.

We as a people (and I mean all of us) think we are "so spiritual" because we have a few "facts" and pieces of "knowledge" in our heads...

Yet the scripture condemns us.

Strife amongst us?

For intstannce, I have been accussed of "intellectualism", "cast out", accused of studying the philosophies of theologians...

Yet not once has there been an apology.

Surely if this light is so "strong" it should create a new character within those espousing it? :-)

All "doctrine" if it is little more than intellectual assent will reveal itself through the carnal nature...

It can be shouted from the rooftops, but if it does not make us kind, loving and repentant, then it is all just hot air...

Mark :-)

[teresaq]

where is there mention of any "spirit" other than your own in this, your original post?

Then a thought or impression came to me.

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

So from that point, it has never been an issue or struggle.

I accept this principle.

Then when this new idea was expressed here, I have been given the opportunity to examine it.

But in my spirit, in my heart there are stakes.

Those stakes are based on God ordering man and angels to destroy.

Those stakes are set by the Word of God.

Not one thing presented on here during this discussion has been sufficient to remove "those" stakes.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i was stating a fact that i had noticed and that has influenced my decision.

it also influences whether a person outside of the church will listen to anyone in the church.

it is just a fact. a law of human nature. cant get around it. people will make decisions based on anothers behavior.

Quote:

We need to have higher and more distinct views of the character of Christ,

to lead us to copy his example.

We need to better understand what constitutes a pure religious life.

We must learn to be Christ-like in disposition and character.

We need an increase of faith in the promises of God.

He has shown us great and precious favors;

he has revealed to us his glory, all loving, holy.

These attributes are blended with justice and mercy.

We are not to think of God only as a judge, and to forget him as our loving Father.

Nothing can do our souls greater harm than this; for our whole spiritual life will be molded by our conceptions of God's character.

We have lessons to learn of Jesus' love.

He has been ever solicitous for our welfare. His voice is ever inviting us to come to him with all our griefs and sorrows; and if we will obey the call, we shall draw toward Jesus. {RH, April 5, 1887 par. 10}

these are the kinds of statements that have always gotten my attention over the decades more than anything else she has to say. ultimately it will my character that decides whether i get into heaven or not.

not whatever i may or not believe.

I personally have not seen any "better" behaviour from those that espouse the view that God is a pacifist... :-)

this is not the only discussion board, nor is it the only one i have observed and/or participated in.

then again, it all depends on what one considers "good" or "bad" behavior.

in which case all the words in the world will make no dent.

[Twilight]

where is there mention of any "spirit" other than your own in this, your original post?

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Then a thought or impression came to me.

The idea expressed was:

"Love has to destroy evil to be love."

I understood this intrinsically in my spirit.

It spoke to my heart.

So from that point, it has never been an issue or struggle.

I accept this principle.

Then when this new idea was expressed here, I have been given the opportunity to examine it.

But in my spirit, in my heart there are stakes.

Those stakes are based on God ordering man and angels to destroy.

Those stakes are set by the Word of God.

Not one thing presented on here during this discussion has been sufficient to remove "those" stakes.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If you ever experience the still small voice of God sister, then next time it comes, pay attention to where it comes from...

All inspiration has to be tested against the Word of God.

There is nothing in the above that sets that aside.

It is the leading of the Spirit and the Word of God that leads us into truth...

Why would you object strongly to that?

If you are objecting to that...?

Mark :-) [/quote']

I am not quite sure what you are asking me Teresas?

[LifeHiscost]

[LifeHiscost]

Before Satan existed, violence did not exist. It is a tool of his kingdom. So why would God use a tool of the kingdom of the enemy?

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."

Galatians 6:7 NKJV

Assuming this is not just for our present possibilities, perhaps those who have burned others (in more ways than one) such as in the Jewish holocaust, will receive the burning of themselves as a result of their preoccupation on this earth. God has given the warning. Can we trust Him to keep His Word? I believe we can.

Of course, there needs to be taken into account those who have seen the error of their way, and have received the gift of repentance as well as accepted the cleansing of Jesus' blood, who do not have to worry about that promise.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

but i have to remind all of us that it is not until the sunday law is about to go into effect, and after, that Gods people will come into the church, while multitudes abandon it.

And what makes you think that isn't happening right now?

"And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."Matthew 24:6 NKJV

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."Matthew 24:14 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

If we can't run with men what will we do when we have to compete with horses. By the way this is a Bible verse that I just paraphrased!

sky

I'm aware of the Scripture, Sky, and I agree with it. However I also believe we push some people away from Jesus by our cantankerous behavior at times.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

ultimately it will my character that decides whether i get into heaven or not.

not whatever i may or not believe.

The only way we will enter the kingdom of heaven is whether we have accepted the character of Jesus Christ as our own, by faith.

And that would be both imparted and imputed. Nothing less will be sufficient. Praise God.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Yet the scripture condemns us.

Mark :-)

Not to be disagreeable, but I need to either accept your assessment or the Word's. I choose the Word.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Yet the scripture condemns us.

Mark :-)

Not to be disagreeable, but I need to either accept your assessment or the Word's. I choose the Word.

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24 21st Century KJV

Blessings!

I should expand on that. :-)

When there is strife and division, envying etc amongst us, God condemns that as Carnal.

As the activity of "babes in Christ".

That was the sense of the condemnation. :-)

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

L:This is not the easiest part of reality to face, but the alternative is letting those hostile to God and His children live on without end, to continue their effort to destroy the peace and security of the rest of the universe, not a choice revealing to me the character of Love we all look forward to experiencing in full.

Me:So the idea suggested is dependent upon the idea that sin is completely innocuous.

L:If that was the idea you perceived from the post as written, it was not an idea fom me.

Perhaps not intentionally, but if the alternative to being destroyed by an outside force is letting those hostile to God and His children live without end, then this is the idea. I explained why in the post you're responding to.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Before Satan existed, violence did not exist. It is a tool of his kingdom. So why would God use a tool of the kingdom of the enemy?

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."

Galatians 6:7 NKJV

Assuming this is not just for our present possibilities, perhaps those who have burned others (in more ways than one) such as in the Jewish holocaust, will receive the burning of themselves as a result of their preoccupation on this earth. God has given the warning. Can we trust Him to keep His Word? I believe we can.

Of course, there needs to be taken into account those who have seen the error of their way, and have received the gift of repentance as well as accepted the cleansing of Jesus' blood, who do not have to worry about that promise.

Blessings!

Before Satan existed, violence did not exist. It is a tool of his kingdom. So why would God use a tool of the kingdom of the enemy?

[Woody]

Quote:

"Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained." EW 294

For God to carry out what EGW states He would have to keep some alive for many days. This act would be more about torture then justice. You can't burn for days without dying unless something supernatural keeps you alive. And according to EGW if all that remained was a finger that person would still feel the pain! ???

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yes I do make little digs every now and then, but I never said I was superior to you, with a deeper understanding, or a higher standard than you. Get real. She put down a whole group of people, but it was my name in the quote box.

i was stating a fact that i had noticed and that has influenced my decision.

it also influences whether a person outside of the church will listen to anyone in the church.

it is just a fact. a law of human nature. cant get around it. people will make decisions based on anothers behavior.

Quote:

We need to have higher and more distinct views of the character of Christ,

to lead us to copy his example.

We need to better understand what constitutes a pure religious life.

We must learn to be Christ-like in disposition and character.

We need an increase of faith in the promises of God.

He has shown us great and precious favors;

he has revealed to us his glory, all loving, holy.

These attributes are blended with justice and mercy.

We are not to think of God only as a judge, and to forget him as our loving Father.

Nothing can do our souls greater harm than this; for our whole spiritual life will be molded by our conceptions of God's character.

We have lessons to learn of Jesus' love.

He has been ever solicitous for our welfare. His voice is ever inviting us to come to him with all our griefs and sorrows; and if we will obey the call, we shall draw toward Jesus. {RH, April 5, 1887 par. 10}

these are the kinds of statements that have always gotten my attention over the decades more than anything else she has to say. ultimately it will my character that decides whether i get into heaven or not.

not whatever i may or not believe.

Yes, "We can honor Him only as we have a right conception of His character, government and purposes, and act in accordance with them." G.C.593.

But this is a catch 22 for what we believe or don't believe affects our character in more ways than one. "The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light." T.M.91. For example, if we persist in believing that Christ stands toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, when we have been expressly shown that He does not, we will continue to see God in a false light and it will affect our character and the way we treat others. That is why it is so important to heed the warning not to disregard one ray of light.

"We embrace the truth of God with our different faculties and as we come under the influence of that truth, it will accomplish the work for us which is necessary to give us a moral fitness for the Kingdom of glory and the society of heavenly angels. We are now in God's workshop. Many of us are rough stones from the quary. But as we lay hold upon the truth of God, it elevates us and removes from us every imperfection and sin, of whatever nature. Thus we are prepared to see the King in His beauty and to unite with the pure and heavenly angels in the Kingdom of glory. It is here that this work is to be accomplished for us, here that our bodies and spirits are to be fitted for immortality." E.G.W. Maranatha, p.221.

And "Unless we make it our life business to behold the uplifted Saviour ( and not as an executioner of the sentence against transgression) and to accept the merits which it is our privilege to claim, we can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93. *parenthesis supplied

Only as we do this can we receive the grace of the Holy Spirit to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character.

Thus we must daily apply to the merits of Christ. It is our only hope for time and eternity.

sky

* Thus "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." This is "living faith" and "A living faith means an increase of vigor, a confiding trust, by which the soul becomes a conquering power." D.A.347; F.W.64,65.