A Question about the Sanctuary Service

[Robert]

God uses parables and even the visual aid of a playbox to teach a vital truth, because while some people claim to be "complete in Christ," their life and teaching deny the fact.

Again, are you living Christ's life, no? Then according to your theology you aren't complete "in Christ". You take the gospel, which is good news to sinners, and make it legalistic, but that same law that you attempt to place believers under condemns even you....

[Robert]

Good ranting Robert -- but you are short on actual facts.

Not at all....I know a legalist when I read one....Been there, was one of you, now I'm free of that hell....Wish you were free too...

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

A male goat - Lev 4:23 Lev 9:3 a lamb, male goat

Thank you BobRyan.

Your first reference (Lev 4:23) refers to a male goat, as you say, but even with reference to this goat, it's blood was used only on the altar in the courtyard :

"the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering." (Lev 4:25)

Your next reference (Lev 9:3) speaks about a calf and a lamb being offered as burnt offerings (to be burnt on the altar in the courtyard)... but their blood was not taken into the holy place, was it?

Regards,

Stewart.

Good questions Stewart. Sorry for missing the thread posts for so long.

Lev 6:25-27 gives the rule for either eating the sin offering / guilt offering -- or else bringing it's blood into the tent of meeting.

Lev 10:16-18 shows "the rule" that was being used - and Moses insists on absolute conformity to that rule even in the dire case of Lev 10.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Good ranting Robert -- but you are short on actual facts.

Not at all....I know a legalist when I read (obligatory ranting deleted here)...

More ranting??

tsk tsk.

[BobRyan]

God knows that people like we, with limited reasoning ability throughout the history of the world, need things to see to help and strengthen our faith. We know that the temple in heaven is Christ Himself.

A carefull reading of scripture will show from Rev 21 that the condition you imagine above does not actually occur until after the millennium.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

What’s all this garbage about the sanctuary service of the ceremonial laws of Moses?

[BobRyan]

Those sacrifices became meaningless because, "if I give away ALL I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain NOTHING!" 1 Cor 13:3 ESV.

Study Lev 16 and you will find the second coming prefigured!

I would argue that Hebrews 10:2-14 shows exactly how the Laws regarding sacrifices and offerings ended in explicit detail.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Not at all....I know a legalist when I read (obligatory ranting deleted here)...

More ranting??

tsk tsk.

You look at the buildings...I'll look to my position "in Christ".

[Guest WilloMar]

Sorry I took so long in responding to this subject of the temple services, but I was looking for my notes on this important subject. However, do you think I can find anything in my cluttered life? Of course not! So I must rely on my memory...now... what am I writing about, again? Oh, yes, the temple services of the Israelites. Before the exodus, the children of Israel were slaves, for the most part, in Egypt for over 400 years. All they really knew was the Egyptian lifestyle and their form of worship. They didn’t build pyramids, because pyramids were built long before they arrived. No, they built temples, temples for the Egyptian gods with the bricks they made. So, they knew much about temples. Therefore when they were in the wilderness, after their exodus, they demanded a temple to house their God like the temple that housed the Egyptian gods. I believe, if my memory is correct, the Egyptian temple had an outer court, while inside there were two compartments: The holy, and the most holy, where only the high priest and the pharaoh, who was considered a god, could go into. There was even an ark, which was an actual boat, in the holy of holy. That was how the Egyptians believed they traveled from this life to the next, I believe. It’s been quite awhile since I studied into this, but I’ve almost always been every fascinated with Egyptology. I think I’ll go back and study more on this ---- Fascinating!

Let’s be ready to welcome Jesus!

[Gerr]

Not at all....I know a legalist when I read one....Been there' date=' was one of you, now I'm free of that hell....Wish you were free too...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

More ranting??

tsk tsk.

You look at the buildings...I'll look to my position "in Christ".

What position? "And BY THIS WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, IF we keep His commandments. Whoever says 'I know Him' but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps His word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. BY THIS WE MAY BE SURE that we are in Him: whoever says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:3-6 ESV.

[Robert]

I know an antinomian when I see one!!!

Do you wish to be under law?

As to the law, you only see it as "the letter of the law"....I see its spiritual requirements.

[Robert]

"And BY THIS WE KNOW that we have come to know Him, IF we keep His commandments. Whoever says 'I know Him' but does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps His word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. BY THIS WE MAY BE SURE that we are in Him: whoever says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." 1 Jn 2:3-6 ESV.

What commandments? Use the context instead of your preconceived ideas!

First you need the context starting with 1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin.

Okay, let's stop....John just said, "if we say we have no sin we deceives ourselves." But in 2:1 it seems he is saying we can say "we have no sin". What "sin" then is John speaking of?

And if any man sin [singular], we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world [the human race].

What's the problem with those who claim to be without sin in their lives? What type of "sin" is that? You won't find it in the Ten Commandments. This sin is the sin of self-righteousness. So if any man states that he is without sin forgiveness is available. Not only self-righteousness, but sin in general.

3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Is John talking about the Ten Commandments? Let's see:

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: 6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

Note the plural in "commandments"

7 Beloved, no new commandment [singular] write I unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning: the old commandment is the word which ye heard. 8 Again, a new commandment write I unto you, which thing is true in him and in you; because the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in the darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in the darkness, and walketh in the darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because the darkness hath blinded his eyes.

So John is summing his version of the "commandments" up in a single command: "Do not hate your brother"....

You must remember the Jews and Gentiles hated each other. There was division, but "in Christ" there's neither male nor female, rich or poor, free or slave because "in Him" there's no class division.

James brings this out:

James 2:2 For instance, suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in shabby clothes. 3 If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, "You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor" – well, 4 doesn't this discrimination show that you are guided by wrong motives? 5 Listen to me, dear brothers and sisters. Hasn't God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith? Aren't they the ones who will inherit the Kingdom he promised to those who love him? 6 And yet, you insult the poor man! Isn't it the rich who oppress you and drag you into court? 7 Aren't they the ones who slander Jesus Christ, whose noble name you bear?

8 Yes indeed, it is good when you truly obey our Lord's royal command found in the Scriptures: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you pay special attention to the rich, you are committing a sin, for you are guilty of breaking that law.

So, when John says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" he has this in mind. Otherwise John is making the law a means of salvation.

[Stewart (SDA)]

What’s all this garbage about the sanctuary service of the ceremonial laws of Moses? The Creator had nothing to do with those abominations... Why do you bother intellectualizing those laws of the destroyer?

Please pardon my dullness here WilloMar, but are you saying that it was SATAN, the destroyer, that gave Israel the laws relating to the Sanctuary?

All the "thus saith the Lord" phrases used in connection with the Tabernacle and it's services, were really thus saith Satan?

Have I misrepresented your words here, or do I hear you properly?

Regards,

Stewart

[wayfinder]

Mt 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Mt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Re 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Re 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Re 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Joh 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

De 9:9 "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Ro 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I could go on and on, the Bible is full of information on keeping the Law (Ten Commandments) or as Paul would have us believe, we have been released from the Law that has condemned us and we now serve in spirit (what ever that means). Paul tells us what that means,

Romans 8:1-4 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So what Law is Paul speaking of- Romans 8:21-24 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

This is just scratching the surface. God and His Son have testified to the fact that when they gave the Law they truly believed it was fair and not a burden. They expected compliance. Paul, on the other hand said the Law was and is impossible to keep. God, knowing that He must provide another way of salvation for the Gentiles, killed His Son and solved the problem. Question is, why does that pesky Ark of the Covenant revealed to all at the end of the trumpets. I thought things in heaven were eternal; it is only things on this earth that are finite.

[Guest WilloMar]

Dear Stewart, there are truths concerning the Creator God that we must always bear in mind when studying Scripture. “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).” Were those sacrifices, those ceremonial laws, “good” and “perfect” gifts? “I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it (added to it), nor any thing taken from it (Eccles. 3:14)...” And will they stand forever? No, they were done away with, right? That’s because they all originated by Satan, for Satan, “the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4),” who is the opposite of the Creator ---- the destroyer: “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly (John 10:10).” “Satan is the destroyer; God is the Restorer (MH 113).” (See MM 240 and Te. 276)

Jesus is coming soon, let’s be ready to welcome Him!

[Guest WilloMar]

Stewart, I forgot to add this statement of Mrs. White that, I believe, proves how devious Satan was in the OT: “Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles (DA 758).” Do you really believe Moses and the interpreters, etc. understood more than the whole universe of sinless beings?

Jesus is coming!

[John317]

What’s all this garbage about the sanctuary service of the ceremonial laws of Moses?

It was the pre-incarnate Christ who instituted the sanctuary service and the ceremonial laws. The God of the Old Testament gave both the Ten Commandments and the laws that pointed forward to time of Christ first coming. The God of the OT is the same as the God of the New Testament.

Check out 1 Cor. 10:9. (See the Majority Text as well as the Critical Text.) It shows that it was Jesus Christ who was leading the Hebrews through the Wilderness. He was known by them as "Yahweh," or "Jehovah."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: WilloMar

What’s all this garbage about the sanctuary service of the ceremonial laws of Moses? The Creator had nothing to do with those abominations... Why do you bother intellectualizing those laws of the destroyer?

[size:11pt][color:#660000]Please pardon my dullness here WilloMar, but are you saying that it was SATAN, the destroyer, that gave Israel the laws relating to the Sanctuary?

All the "thus saith the Lord" phrases used in connection with the Tabernacle and it's services, were really thus saith Satan?

Sadly, the truth is that today there are people who are teaching that much if not most of Old Testament was inspired by Satan, who tricked people into thinking he was God.

[BobRyan]

I am pretty surprised by that "Satan the author of scripture" heresy. Where in the world is that coming from? What group is that? How can any group get so far afield?

[BobRyan]

Sorry I took so long in responding to this subject of the temple services, but I was looking for my notes on this important subject. However, do you think I can find anything in my cluttered life? Of course not! So I must rely on my memory...now... what am I writing about, again? Oh, yes, the temple services of the Israelites. Before the exodus, the children of Israel were slaves, for the most part, in Egypt for over 400 years. All they really knew was the Egyptian lifestyle and their form of worship. They didn’t build pyramids, because pyramids were built long before they arrived. No, they built temples, temples for the Egyptian gods with the bricks they made. So, they knew much about temples. Therefore when they were in the wilderness, after their exodus, they demanded a temple to house their God like the temple that housed the Egyptian gods.

Some of the first part is actual history.

But so much fiction and revisionist history, revisionist Bible even inserted getting to the end of that statement.

What Bible did you read saying "the people demanded a sanctuary"????

What Bible did you read that said that inspired writers were NOT "speaking from God"???

What Bible did you read that did NOT show Christ approving the text of Moses???

How did you get so faaaar off track? Is there another Vernon Howell - David Koresh out there???

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

I am pretty surprised by that "Satan the author of scripture" heresy. Where in the world is that coming from? What group is that? How can any group get so far afield?

There are quite a few people on this board that hold to that view.

They throw out one aspect of Scripture and before you know it, nothing is left.

I have seen this before, proposers come to the point where all they have is the "leading of the "spirit", when all is said and done.

But without scripture to check the "spirit", they have no way of defining "who" the spirit is.

Very similar to our pentecostal brethren...

Another characteristic of this group is their complete lack of tolerance and "spiritual superiority" over those that do not agree with them.

That very spirit within them should be warning enough, but sadly it is not even recognised, even when pointed out in a very direct manner...

God bless,

Mark

[BobRyan]

I guess my question is - do they claim to also be Adventist? Is this some kind of move inside the Adventist church?

I have not seen this before.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

I guess my question is - do they claim to also be Adventist? Is this some kind of move inside the Adventist church?

I have not seen this before.

in Christ,

Bob

I do not know Bob.

One minute some accept SOP, the next they do not.

All I know is that this "spirit" was prophecised as coming into the church.

We should not be surprised.

But many are just so LOUD with their error.

So loud that the simple present truths cannot be heard.

As soon as you start to talk about them, one pops up and takes the thread off into controversy.

Oh for a thread, where the brethren can just share and discuss present truth. :-)

Mark :-)

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I am pretty surprised by that "Satan the author of scripture" heresy. Where in the world is that coming from? What group is that? How can any group get so far afield?

There are quite a few people on this board that hold to that view.

They throw out one aspect of Scripture and before you know it, nothing is left.

I have seen this before, proposers come to the point where all they have is the "leading of the "spirit", when all is said and done.

But without scripture to check the "spirit", they have no way of defining "who" the spirit is.

Very similar to our pentecostal brethren...

Another characteristic of this group is their complete lack of tolerance and "spiritual superiority" over those that do not agree with them.

That very spirit within them should be warning enough, but sadly it is not even recognised, even when pointed out in a very direct manner...

God bless,

Mark

Amen- thanks for posting this.