Sam Pipim is presenting a series of talks called "Trojan Horses"..

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Can you quote the statements of brother Pipim which contradict Ellen White?

So it is your position that brother Pipim does not believe God gave His messengers the words they spoke and wrote? If this is true, and he doesn't believe in word inspiration then I am wrong and I apologize for saying it was his belief, and for erecting a "straw dog." I think brother Pipim and the Adventist Theology Society, as well as most people in SDA pews, all believe in word inspiration. But, as Dr. Dean Davis would say, I could be wrong. :smile:

No, I never implied or suggested that Pipim's words conflict with Ellen White's beliefs. In fact, my question implies that I don't believe he does conflict with her on the subject of Inspiration. However, I know that there are those who believe that Pipim is teaching things at odds with both the Bible and Ellen White.

[Woody]

Quote:

I admit that I should check occasionally to see if he has repented, but have been willing to leave that between him and God.

Let's pray he has. But like you say ... that is between him and God. However .... as responsible Christians .... we should follow God and not Pipim.

[oldsailor29]

No, I never implied or suggested that Pipim's words conflict with Ellen White's beliefs. In fact, my question implies that I don't believe he does conflict with her on the subject of Inspiration.

I got that. You wanted me to quote Pipim where he disagrees with Ellen White on the nature of inspiration. This means, As I said, you believe Pipim agrees with Ellen White. I'm sure he believes he agrees with her also, but he doesn't. It is clear to me that brother Pipim believes God gave His servants the words they spoke or wrote. Ellen White did not believe this. Brother Pipim tries to say the Holy Spirit guided inspired writers to use the correct words, but did not dictate. ("Receiving The Word" pp51.3) This is just another effort to hide the same definition behind a different word, because the results of verbal inspiration and mechanical inspiration turns out to be the same.

Here again is just one of many quotes from Ellen White which states the true nature of inspiration. "The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language." (GC Introduction paragraph 3)

Most SDAs believe God gave His messengers the words they spoke or wrote. This is a fundamentalist belief. Some SDAs say the Bible is inerrant. Others say it is infallible, and try to say they do not believe in inerrancy, for they know inerrancy is wrong. However if we read their definition of infallibility carefully, it comes out the same as inerrancy. It is just switching words, and using them to mean the same thing, while thinking they are different. This is a major problem with the 27 or 28 beliefs. It states that the Bible is infallible and it means inerrant. This is why I say fundamentalism is the most dangerous "Trojan Horse" in the world of theology.

I believe, with the help of the Holy Spirit, The Bible will infallibly lead people to Jesus. So I say, just go to Jesus, and whatever Jesus didn't say, doesn't need to be said.

Read what Jesus said carefully, and follow Him. If you think Moses spoke the words of Jesus, then read what Jesus said more carefully. Read what Jesus said again and again, and you will find gems of truth previously unknown.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

No, I never implied or suggested that Pipim's words conflict with Ellen White's beliefs. In fact, my question implies that I don't believe he does conflict with her on the subject of Inspiration.

I got that. You wanted me to quote Pipim where he disagrees with Ellen White on the nature of inspiration. This means, As I said, you believe Pipim agrees with Ellen White. I'm sure he believes he agrees with her also, but he doesn't. It is clear to me that brother Pipim believes God gave His servants the words they spoke or wrote. Ellen White did not believe this. Brother Pipim tries to say the Holy Spirit guided inspired writers to use the correct words, but did not dictate. ("Receiving The Word" pp51.3) This is just another effort to hide the same definition behind a different word, because the results of verbal inspiration and mechanical inspiration turns out to be the same.

I haven't seen anything written by him that clearly contradicts Ellen White or the Bible. Maybe his interpretation of those sources is different from yours but that is not the same as a clear contradiction.

Below are statements by brother Pipim on inspiration. Ellen White also believed and taught that God helps guide the prophets in the choice of words to write. See, for instance, the introduction to GC.

Quote:

Bible-believing Adventists have always recognized that because the Holy Spirit guided the Bible writers in their selection and use of historical and literary sources, all Scripture is inspired and manifest a remarkable unity in content. Therefore, Ellen White warned: “Do not let any living man come to you and begin to dissect God’s Word, telling what is revelation, what is inspiration and what is not, without a rebuke” (E. G. White, Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, 7:919-920). Contrary to the claims of liberal (source) critics, the Spirit’s superintendence of the Bible writers is the grounds for comparing Scripture with Scripture to arrive at a biblical doctrine.

3. The Use of Imperfect Human Language: Seventh-day Adventist scholars acknowledge that God did not dictate each word of Scripture to the Bible writers. Instead of a mechanical (dictation) mode of inspiration, the Holy Spirit condescended to the level of the Bible writers, guiding them even as they employed their own imperfect human language to communicate divine truth.

Issue #3: Does the use of imperfect human language to communicate divine truth mean that the words the Bible writers employed are not important? Does the fact that “infinite ideas cannot be perfectly embodied in finite vehicles of thought” imply that the truthfulness of Scripture’s message is thereby compromised?

Bible-believing Adventists maintain: “The very fact that God selects fallen beings to convey the revelation of Himself to other fallen beings, in human language, with all its foibles and imperfections, is by itself an unfathomable act of condescension. While we do recognize divine accommodation in the Scriptures, we must guard against pressing the concept of accommodation so far as to deny or distort the true meaning of Scripture.”

4. Cultural Elements in Scripture: As a perfect Communicator to human beings, God has spoken in the language of His listeners, using the cultural expressions, idioms, thought forms, etc. of the listening audience living at a particular time in history. Thus Scripture, being historically constituted, contains certain cultural elements, some of which are relative to the Bible times.

Issue #4: Does God’s communication to people in a particular historico-cultural setting imply that Scripture is culturally conditioned---that is, does the message of Scripture suffer from the limitations, prejudice, or ignorance of the Bible writers? [22] If so, by what criteria can interpreters isolate the culturally conditioned content from its trans-cultural message?

Adventists reject liberalism’s “cultural conditioning” argument which relativizes and arbitrarily picks and chooses from the message of the Scriptures. Instead, they insist: “Although it was given to those who lived in an ancient Near Eastern/Mediterranean context, the Bible transcends its cultural backgrounds to serve as God’s word for all cultural, racial, and situational contexts in all ages” (“Methods of Bible Study” Report). They also recognize that “although the biblical instruction is relevant to all cultures and time, it was given to a particular culture and time. [Therefore,] Time and place must be taken into account in application.” As a general principle, Bible-believing Adventists “assume the transcultural and transtemporal relevancy of biblical instruction unless Scripture itself gives criteria limiting this relevancy.”

[Neil D]

There is a principle by which is guaranteed to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. And that is contempt prior to investigation

It's been many years ago, but I read "Recieving the Word" by Pipim...And the disparaging remarks he made against Steve Case, et al in the book.

You claim, Rich, that some here don't investigate? Well, I investigated...

I have talked to Steve Case, and asked him about Pipim criticism against him...

He attempted to contact Pipim and even told Pipim that Pipim was in error in some of the statements that he MISQUOTED. Pipim refused to correct the error he made in the book.

Now, I know Steve Case....I know he's a good man. I know his theology well, and I don't agree with all of it...but it is good relationship theology. I know others in the book....I know that they are good men as well.

The Bible says that Satan is an accuser of the brothern...And Pipim accuses the brothern of the church....

Seems to me, that Pipin is doing the devil's work....regardless of his theology....

[oldsailor29]

I have quoted the guiding principle of divine inspiration from the introduction of "The Great Controversy." In order to remain consistent and true, the degree of guidance from the Holy Spirit must stop at some point before this principle is compromised.

If you have the Holy Spirit guiding the mind of the prophet in the selection of words(verbal inspiration), then you might as well have the Holy Spirit dictating the words(mechanical inspiration). That is just another example of different words meaning the same thing.

The whole concept of inerrancy and infallibility is a set up of Satan, to discredit the Bible. This idea says that the Bible is either correct in every way, or it is a pack of lies. This is a disaster waiting to happen, for as soon as an error is found, then the Bible has to be rejected.

And it is all a big smoke screen, designed to hide the truth. The truth upon which we can depend is simply that the rest of the Bible points us toward Jesus. If we don't see that, it is because our vision is impaired. And the cure for impaired vision is Jesus. So if we believe it points us to Jesus, why waste so much time in the details of interpretation. Just read what Jesus says, and believe His interpretation. When we concentrate on the teachings of Jesus and lift Him up, all issues except the ones He addresses are left behind.

So, what's the point? This is an important question, and when I first read brother Pipim's "Receiving The Word," I noticed he emphasized his point several times, that women should not be in church leadership positions. It is hard for me to believe that someone would go to such lengths of deceptions and through so many twists and turns and self contradictions, just so he could incorrectly interpret something Paul wrote to some church in the middle east, which was having trouble dealing with ex-pagan temple prostitutes who had converted to Christianity.

[BobRyan]

I am simply pointing to some "boundaries" set by Ellen White below that should not be compromised in how we portray scripture.

Quote:

Ministry of Healing

God's Promises

The physician has precious opportunities for directing his patients to the promises of God's word. He is to bring from the treasure house things new and old, speaking here and there the words of comfort and instruction that are longed for. Let the physician make his mind a storehouse of fresh thoughts. Let him study the word of God diligently, that he may be familiar with its promises. Let him learn to repeat the comforting words that Christ spoke during His earthly ministry when giving His lessons and healing the sick. He should talk of the works of healing wrought by Christ, of His tenderness and love. Never should he neglect to direct the minds of his patients to Christ, the Chief Physician.

122

{MH 121.2}

The same power that Christ exercised when He walked visibly among men is in His word. It was by His word that Jesus healed disease and cast out demons; by His word He stilled the sea and raised the dead, and the people bore witness that His word was with power. He spoke the word of God, as He had spoken to all the prophets and teachers of the Old Testament. The whole Bible is a manifestation of Christ. {MH 122.1}

The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not written merely, but spoken. When the afflicted ones came to Christ, He beheld not only those who asked for help, but all who throughout the ages should come to Him in like need and with like faith. When He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee;" when He said to the woman of Capernaum, "Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace," He spoke to other afflicted, sin-burdened ones who should seek His help. Matthew 9:2; Luke 8:48. {MH 122.2}

So with all the promises of God's word. In them He is speaking to us individually, speaking as directly as if we could listen to His voice. It is in these promises that Christ communicates to us His grace and power. They are leaves from that tree which is "for the healing of the nations." Rev. 22:2. Received, assimilated, they are to be the strength of the character, the inspiration and sustenance of the life. Nothing else can have such healing power. Nothing besides can impart the courage and faith which give vital energy to the whole being. {MH 122.3}

To one who stands trembling with fear on the brink of the grave, to the soul weary of the burden of suffering and sin, let the physician as he has opportunity repeat the words of the Saviour--for all the words of Holy Writ are His: {MH 122.4}

Quote:

Jesus said of the Old Testament Scriptures--and how much more it is true of the New--"They are they which testify of me" (John 5:39). . . . Yes, the whole Bible tells of Christ. From the first record of creation, for "without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3), to the closing promise, "Behold, I come quickly" (Rev. 22:12), we are reading of His works and listening to His voice. If you would become acquainted with the Saviour, study the Holy Scriptures {FLB 12.6}

As I said before -- I don't think Pipim ever uses stronger language for that point - than what we find in the quotes above.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Rich4truth

There is a principle by which is guaranteed to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. And that is contempt prior to investigation

It's been many years ago, but I read "Recieving the Word" by Pipim...And the disparaging remarks he made against Steve Case, et al in the book.

You claim, Rich, that some here don't investigate? Well, I investigated...

I have talked to Steve Case, and asked him about Pipim criticism against him...

He attempted to contact Pipim and even told Pipim that Pipim was in error in some of the statements that he MISQUOTED. Pipim refused to correct the error he made in the book.

Now, I know Steve Case....I know he's a good man. I know his theology well, and I don't agree with all of it...but it is good relationship theology. I know others in the book....I know that they are good men as well.

The Bible says that Satan is an accuser of the brothern...And Pipim accuses the brothern of the church....

Seems to me, that Pipin is doing the devil's work....regardless of his theology....

[Woody]

I have quoted the guiding principle of divine inspiration from the introduction of "The Great Controversy." In order to remain consistent and true, the degree of guidance from the Holy Spirit must stop at some point before this principle is compromised.

If you have the Holy Spirit guiding the mind of the prophet in the selection of words(verbal inspiration), then you might as well have the Holy Spirit dictating the words(mechanical inspiration). That is just another example of different words meaning the same thing.

The whole concept of inerrancy and infallibility is a set up of Satan, to discredit the Bible. This idea says that the Bible is either correct in every way, or it is a pack of lies. This is a disaster waiting to happen, for as soon as an error is found, then the Bible has to be rejected.

And it is all a big smoke screen, designed to hide the truth. The truth upon which we can depend is simply that the rest of the Bible points us toward Jesus. If we don't see that, it is because our vision is impaired. And the cure for impaired vision is Jesus. So if we believe it points us to Jesus, why waste so much time in the details of interpretation. Just read what Jesus says, and believe His interpretation. When we concentrate on the teachings of Jesus and lift Him up, all issues except the ones He addresses are left behind.

So, what's the point? This is an important question, and when I first read brother Pipim's "Receiving The Word," I noticed he emphasized his point several times, that women should not be in church leadership positions. It is hard for me to believe that someone would go to such lengths of deceptions and through so many twists and turns and self contradictions, just so he could incorrectly interpret something Paul wrote to some church in the middle east, which was having trouble dealing with ex-pagan temple prostitutes who had converted to Christianity.

TU

[BobRyan]

Quote:

EGW: Faith I Live By

An Infallible Revelation

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth purified seven times. Ps. 12:6. {FLB 13.1}

In His Word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. {FLB 13.2}

Spiritual darkness has covered the earth and gross darkness the people. . . . Many, very many, are questioning the verity and truth of the Scriptures. Human reasoning and the imaginings of the human heart are undermining the inspiration of the Word of God, and that which should be received as granted, is surrounded with a cloud of mysticism. Nothing stands out in clear and distinct lines, upon rock bottom. This is one of the marked signs of the last days. . . . {FLB 13.3}

There are men who strive to be original, who are wise above what is written; therefore, their wisdom is foolishness. . . . In seeking to make plain or to unravel mysteries hid from ages from mortal man, they are like a man floundering about in the mud, unable to extricate himself and yet telling others how to get out of the muddy sea they themselves are in. This is a fit representation of the men who set themselves to correct the errors of the Bible. No man can improve the Bible by suggesting what the Lord meant to say or ought to have said. . . . {FLB 13.4}

The whole concept of inerrancy and infallibility is a set up of Satan, to discredit the Bible. This idea says that the Bible is either correct in every way, or it is a pack of lies. This is a disaster waiting to happen, for as soon as an error is found, then the Bible has to be rejected.

Hmm - interesting - you find errors and fallability, Ellen White says it is infallible.

Something to think about.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White says it is infallible

Yes, but then Ellen White was not infallible.

[BobRyan]

Don't get me wrong -- I don't mind a situation where someone says "I believe Redwood" and another person says "Well I believe Ellen White because she was inspired by God".

I say - let each one choose.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

I will stick with the word of God.

[Richard Holbrook]

Don't get me wrong -- I don't mind a situation where someone says "I believe Redwood" and another person says "Well I believe Ellen White because she was inspired by God".

I say - let each one choose.

in Christ,

Bob

[Richard Holbrook]

I will stick with the word of God.

So you don't believe the Prophet?

[Woody]

Given a choice between the Word of God and a human prophet ... I will always choose the Word. And this is what our prophet has instructed us to do.

[lazarus]

Red, I don't think Bob is saying EGW is infallible. That clearly is not the case.

[Richard Holbrook]

True, she did. But the Bible also came from "human prophets".

Inspired is inspired.

[Woody]

Red, I don't think Bob is saying EGW is infallible. That clearly is not the case.

Oh, that's good to hear. I sure hope he isn't. Maybe he will clarify.

[Woody]

True, she did. But the Bible also came from "human prophets".

Inspired is inspired.

I disagree. The words of Ellen White are not equal to the Bible. And inspired is not equal to inspired. I am inspired. I am willing to claim inspiration. But, my words inspired as they may be .... are not equal to scripture and neither are Ellen White's.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Rich4truth

True, she did. But the Bible also came from "human prophets".

Inspired is inspired.

I disagree. The words of Ellen White are not equal to the Bible. And inspired is not equal to inspired. I am inspired. I am willing to claim inspiration. But, my words inspired as they may be .... are not equal to scripture and neither are Ellen White's.

A prophet is one who gives the messages of God to the church and sometimes to the whole world. God gives them visions and dreams and the Holy Spirit is sent to help them write their messages so that the message they give is not their own but God's. See 1 SM 25-40.

Look at the distinctions:

inspiration

noun

1 the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, esp. to do something creative : Helen had one of her flashes of inspiration | the history of fashion has provided designers with invaluable inspiration.

• the quality of having been so stimulated, esp. when evident in something : a rare moment of inspiration in an otherwise dull display.

• a person or thing that stimulates in this way : he is an inspiration to everyone.

• a sudden brilliant, creative, or timely idea : then I had an inspiration.

• the divine influence believed to have led to the writing of the Bible.

[Richard Holbrook]

I disagree. The words of Ellen White are not equal to the Bible. And inspired is not equal to inspired. I am inspired. I am willing to claim inspiration. But, my words inspired as they may be .... are not equal to scripture and neither are Ellen White's.

Are you saying that your words are equal to Ellen White's?

If not then we are not talking about the same kind of inspiration.

Am I saying that we could replace the Bible with EGW? NO. We have enough information for salvation in one single text of the Bible. Jn 3:16

So simple a child can grasp it.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: Rich4truth

Inspired is inspired.

I disagree. The words of Ellen White are not equal to the Bible. And inspired is not equal to inspired. I am inspired. I am willing to claim inspiration. But, my words inspired as they may be .... are not equal to scripture and neither are Ellen White's.

oops.    I disagree.    lol.    Here is another fallacy of fundamentalism, Degrees of inspiration.    There are many Bible texts which were not inspired by the Holy Spirit in visions, dreams, symbols, or numbers, but exist on the sole authority of the prophets.    Guidance was one of the duties of the prophets, and prophets were given the authority for guidance.    As long as the prophet did not go too far afield in that responsibility, God let it go as it was.    But when a prophet erred too far from God's ideal, God would correct the error.    I am thinking of the error made by Samuel when he told David to go ahead with the building of the temple.

Bible prophets were not inerrant any more than Ellen White was inerrant.    Divine inspiration is divine inspiration.    And I am not ready to say that a person is not divinely inspired, but someone who is will know how it works.    The true prophet receives from God, a vision or dream which can include symbols and numbers, and then speaks or writes about it in his/her own words.    And the Holy Spirit will help the prophet avoid any serious mistakes.

Any serious student of the grammatical-critical method of Bible interpretation, as brother Pipim claims to be, will recognize the differing levels of literacy from the different Bible writers.    However, anyone who believes there are no errors in the original manuscripts of the Bible, as brother Pipim obviously does, will fabricate some irrational reason for these differences.    Instead of just simply saying that the prophet used his/her own words, the fundamentalist might say, "The Holy Spirit caused these different levels of literacy so readers who have different levels of understanding can understand what they read, or perhaps the Holy Spirit made these differing levels of literacy in order to test the faith of the readers."    The explanations necessary to support inerrancy and infallibility, are usually not the simple truth.

And actually, when the progression of theology is taken into consideration, and when we think about the diet and the clean and unclean meats of the Old Testament, and when we compare that to the vegetarian diet prescribed by Ellen White, the honest fundamentalist will have to say that Ellen White was more inspired than Moses.    So there you go.    You want to be a fundamentalist SDA, then you have to say the inspiration of Ellen White was superior to the inspiration of Bible writers.

[Richard Holbrook]

And actually, when the progression of theology is taken into consideration, and when we think about the diet and the clean and unclean meats of the Old Testament, and when we compare that to the vegetarian diet prescribed by Ellen White, the honest fundamentalist will have to say that Ellen White was more inspired than Moses.    So there you go.    You want to be a fundamentalist SDA, then you have to say the inspiration of Ellen White was superior to the inspiration of Bible writers.

Simply not true. A different massage for a different time. You yourself said devine inspiration is devine inspiration.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I am thinking of the error made by Samuel when he told David to go ahead with the building of the temple.

Bible prophets were not inerrant any more than Ellen White was inerrant.

2 Samuel 7: 1-7. The prophet was Nathan.

You bring up a situation that is different from a prophet's writing something that God has inspired and that God has told them to say. Nathan never said that God told him to tell David to go ahead with the building. A prophet can give ordinary advice too, like anyone else. Ellen White also once told someone to build something, then was told that she gave them the wrong advice. But she didn't say, "The Lord has told me you should build...."